Kings free agency, part 3

[Bricklayer]

I agree that WCS starting is ideal and makes it all fit easily, but the concern is that he's not ready yet. I didn't see the summer league game yesterday but I read that such fears may have some validity. Still, just one game, and October is still some ways away.

Don't think people were watching the right thing. We threw the ball to him in the post and he looked like an amateur in there. he might play all 82 games for us in the regular season and never have that happen. And defensively he flashed a lot of what was promised. A little wild, but chase down blocks, running right with guys on the perimeter, polish him up in training camp and he could be ready to help. Won't have to score a single non-garbage point either.

 

[Sac.Kings]

Might be:

Cuz/Koufos
WCS/Bargs (platoon)
Gay/Casspi/Butler
Belinelli/Ben (platoon) /Anderson
Rondo/Collison/Miller

Koufos must have gotten guarantees of some sort to come here (hopefully not Karl guarantees that sooner or later you get to start). But he and Cuz together are a bit lumbering. I'm sure they'll play together -- indeed looking at our roster depth I'm struggling to figure out who is going to lose out in minutes -- but I doubt its as a starting duo.

Again, what is the fear of starting WCS? Its what he was brought there to do, and it balances things nicely.

I don't have a fear (personally), and it's my ideal lineup. It's just I am not sure if I can expect WCS to start immediately or if Karl will play him in a starting role. I agree that Koufos and Cousins would struggle to contain mobile frontlines due to their size, but WCS and Cousins would not. It will be interesting to see if the kid can earn his way to the starting lineup immediately or maybe sometime during the season.

 

[jcwkings]

I agree that WCS starting is ideal and makes it all fit easily, but the concern is that he's not ready yet. I didn't see the summer league game yesterday but I read that such fears may have some validity. Still, just one game, and October is still some ways away.

Hes not ready to be a focal point(which he wasnt drafted to be). He showed he is ready to be a free safety out there. He will actually do better with better players around him, thus in the longrun it is best he starts. Basically the less attention that is on him the better he will do.

 

[funkykingston]

Karl has a long history of not liking to play rookies, even talented ones.

But if Cauley-Stein were to start I think Koufos would be the third big in the rotation, subbing for either guy with Gay sliding to PF against mobile PFs or small ball lineups.

Bargs would (and should) be a very situational guy who only gets steady minutes due to injury IMO.

I can't believe I'm saying this but is rather have Smoove. Still, add another banger/big body at the minimum and bring back Dre and we're done.

 

[Bricklayer]

I don't have a fear (personally), and it's my ideal lineup. It's just I am not sure if I can expect WCS to start immediately or if Karl will play him in a starting role. I agree that Koufos and Cousins would struggle to contain mobile frontlines due to their size, but WCS and Cousins would not. It will be interesting to see if the kid can earn his way to the starting lineup immediately or maybe sometime during the season.

Karl's ideal big man is probably WCS. Old man long ago banished big man play from his playbook and started running everything for his cute little guys. He's got to be an old dog learning new tricks with Cuz, but WCS is very much in his comfort zone. Defend and stay out of the way.

 

[DesertFox]

While the additions may not be guaranteed any minutes, its hard to see Rudy seeing anything more than spot min at the four.
Unless wcs and koufos both stink it up, Rudy looks like he'll stay at the 3, which is my personal preference anyway.

 

[Sac.Kings]

Karl's ideal big man is probably WCS. Old man long ago banished big man play from his playbook and started running everything for his cute little guys. He's got to be an old dog learning new tricks with Cuz, but WCS is very much in his comfort zone. Defend and stay out of the way.

I would love for that to happen, as long as it benefits the team overall and his lack of experience doesn't kill us. We will find out in a few short months anyway.

 

[SacTownKid]

Has there been a better offseason, on paper...in Sacramento history?

Seeing the words: "LIKE NEW" and "Refurbished" next to everything on the list might take some of the luster off.

 

[thingfish]

Has there been a better offseason, on paper...in Sacramento history?

1998

 

[The Hammer]

1998

This one is better.

Looking objectively at all the moves, and considering the context, this one is by far better. This is a damn near miracle.

 

[sdballer]

This one is better.

Looking objectively at all the moves, and considering the context, this one is by far better. This is a damn near miracle.

1998 is easily the best offseason in Kings history.

We replaced Eddie Jordan with Geoff Petrie
Drafted Jason Williams who was terrific and led to Bibby
Traded for Chris Webber
Signed Jon Barry
Signed Vlade Divac
Signed Vernon Maxwell
Signed Scott Pollard

 

[The Hammer]

1998 is easily the best offseason in Kings history.

We replaced Eddie Jordan with Geoff Petrie
Drafted Jason Williams who was terrific and led to Bibby
Traded for Chris Webber
Signed Jon Barry
Signed Vlade Divac
Signed Vernon Maxwell
Signed Scott Pollard

We'll see the impact WCS has compared to Williams. I think that will end up being similar.

Can't argue with the Weber trade... that finally got us the super star. We already have our superstar.

But the rest of the signings easily favor this offseason.

Koufos >> Pollard
Belinelli > John Barry/Vernon Maxwell
Rondo > Vlade (in terms of impact on the floor. People will argue this one, and of course there is nothing to back this up yet, but I think Rondo is going to be THE guy that bring it all together for us.)

Caron Butler to boot.
Casspi returning at major discount.
And now another talented former star in Bargs coming to be a specialist/role player for us?

In terms of fit, execution, and turning a bad/borderline hopeless situation around... I say this one. But, we shall see. I'm calling us winning 55 games this year. If we're anywhere above 50, this one takes it.

 

[VF21]

MOD NOTE: The discussion of Bargnani was merged into the Bargnani thread.

 

[sdballer]

We'll see the impact WCS has compared to Williams. I think that will end up being similar.

Can't argue with the Weber trade... that finally got us the super star. We already have our superstar.

But the rest of the signings easily favor this offseason.

Koufos >> Pollard
Belinelli > John Barry/Vernon Maxwell
Rondo > Vlade (in terms of impact on the floor. People will argue this one, and of course there is nothing to back this up yet, but I think Rondo is going to be THE guy that bring it all together for us.)

Caron Butler to boot.
Casspi returning at major discount.
And now another talented former star in Bargs coming to be a specialist/role player for us?

In terms of fit, execution, and turning a bad/borderline hopeless situation around... I say this one. But, we shall see. I'm calling us winning 55 games this year. If we're anywhere above 50, this one takes it.

Can't just discount the already had a superstar thing if we're comparing offseasons. Gives a huge edge to 98. And I don't agree with the Rondo>Vlade thing at all. Besides the talent, Vlade brought the characters together on this team. As we've seen this year, Vlade was a unifier that made the roster work. Rondo over the course of his career has been anything but.

 

[The Hammer]

Can't just discount the already had a superstar thing if we're comparing offseasons. Gives a huge edge to 98. And I don't agree with the Rondo>Vlade thing at all. Besides the talent, Vlade brought the characters together on this team. As we've seen this year, Vlade was a unifier that made the roster work. Rondo over the course of his career has been anything but.

Vlade was the unifier that made the roster work, and that is exactly why the addition of Vlade this offseason makes it the best in history!

 

[steelevt]

It almost feels like the FO is reading kingsfans.com. So many years we've had input in who we should draft or pickup in free agency. And it seemed like the Kings almost always picked up a random free agent out of no where. Whether it was mikki Moore, John salmons,James Johnson, or Carl Landry. This year tho...defensive big men? Bam WCS and koufos. Need shooting? How bout a former 3 pt champion. Another pg? Rondo. All names we've brought up even tho we didn't all agree on it. Even players we're linked to now like josh smith and bargs are names brought up in discussions. Just nice to see

 

[PurpleHaze]

It almost feels like the FO is reading kingsfans.com. So many years we've had input in who we should draft or pickup in free agency. And it seemed like the Kings almost always picked up a random free agent out of no where. Whether it was mikki Moore, John salmons,James Johnson, or Carl Landry. This year tho...defensive big men? Bam WCS and koufos. Need shooting? How bout a former 3 pt champion. Another pg? Rondo. All names we've brought up even tho we didn't all agree on it. Even players we're linked to now like josh smith and bargs are names brought up in discussions. Just nice to see

I rather suspect Jerry Reynolds has on and off perused this forum, maybe even Vlade as well sitting for years over in Serbia. I recall 'ol Jer indirectly mentioning Kingsfans.com and also SacRoyalty site. Maybe out of the blue he occasionally name drops possible player for Kings brass to consider. They look at his recommendation as former Kings head coach / FO executive and sometimes make move to trade for or sign such player. Maybe he consults with good buddy Pacers GM Larry Bird to pick his brain about all matters NBA. Thus "well connected" JR keeps seat at table as trusted player evaluator and Kings unofficial consultant. FO never suspecting his true and disguised internet forum info source... hmmm

 

[thingfish]

This one is better.

Looking objectively at all the moves, and considering the context, this one is by far better. This is a damn near miracle.

Ya but, without '98 we may not have Vlade sitting in our front office right now Making all these great moves

 

[jdbraver]

It almost feels like the FO is reading kingsfans.com. So many years we've had input in who we should draft or pickup in free agency. And it seemed like the Kings almost always picked up a random free agent out of no where. Whether it was mikki Moore, John salmons,James Johnson, or Carl Landry. This year tho...defensive big men? Bam WCS and koufos. Need shooting? How bout a former 3 pt champion. Another pg? Rondo. All names we've brought up even tho we didn't all agree on it. Even players we're linked to now like josh smith and bargs are names brought up in discussions. Just nice to see

Fans also wanted John Thomas over whoever that Predrag guy. I guess I don't mind the random FA as long as the pieces fit.

 

[Blastoff]

1998 is easily the best offseason in Kings history.

We replaced Eddie Jordan with Geoff Petrie
Drafted Jason Williams who was terrific and led to Bibby
Traded for Chris Webber
Signed Jon Barry
Signed Vlade Divac
Signed Vernon Maxwell
Signed Scott Pollard

You forgot Peja, who was coaxed away from the Greek league after finishing his contract there.


3 of the 4 retired numbers hanging in the rafters (and the 4th traded away at the end of his prime) were added to the roster that summer. Not to mention the Kings went from lottery to 6th seed that year, in what was still considered a "stacked" Western Conference. So unless we even sniff a chance at the 6th seed, I don't even see an argument that 2015 is better than 1998. However, this is shaping up to be the 2nd best offseason.

 

[funkykingston]

1998 is easily the best offseason in Kings history.

We replaced Eddie Jordan with Geoff Petrie Rick Adelman
Drafted Jason Williams who was terrific and led to Bibby
Traded for Chris Webber
Signed Jon Barry
Signed Vlade Divac
Signed Vernon Maxwell
Signed Scott Pollard

I know what you meant but the OCD part of me had to correct that.

 

[Kingster]

Why isn't WCS ready yet? He's a defensive specialist. Can't he play good D next year?

 

[Amit149]

Why isn't WCS ready yet? He's a defensive specialist. Can't he play good D next year?

I don't think it's a good idea, there are such big differences between the NBA and college basketball.

If we look at last year 2nd season players you could see that adjusting is usually needed:

1. Ben's DFG% (defended field goal precentage- the field goal precntage of the opponent when the player is defending the shot) is equal to the usual FG% of that same player on average this year.
While as a rookie players shot 4.5% better on him than on average, which is a HUGE difference as a defender.

2. Otto Porter DFG% is 3.4% lower than the average FG%- meaning he was a good defender this year.
While as a rookie players shot only 0.5 precent worse on him, again a huge difference in defense from first to second year.

3. Anthony Davis was supposed to be a defensive monster from the moment he reached the league, his rookie year he made players shot 2.7% worse on him- which is pretty good, but in his second year he became MUCH better- making opponents shot 6.2% worse than usual.

Of course that the FG% of your opponent isn't the only part of defense but it does goes to show that between year one and year two players can improve a lot defensively.

Could WCS be a solid/plus defender his rookie year? maybe, but I doubt he will be good enough on defense for you to want to start him despite his offense.

 

[funkykingston]

Why isn't WCS ready yet? He's a defensive specialist. Can't he play good D next year?

No snark intended, but that's essentially the same question as "Player X was a three point specialist in college. Can't he be a three point specialist as a rookie in the NBA?" The answer is usually either "no" or "maybe, but in limited minutes and after an adjustment period". Very few teams with playoff aspirations (which I would hazard the Kings are) will be dependent on a rookie in a starting position. At least not to begin the season.

I don't think it's a good idea, there are such big differences between the NBA and college basketball.

If we look at last year 2nd season players you could see that adjusting is usually needed:

1. Ben's DFG% (defended field goal precentage- the field goal precntage of the opponent when the player is defending the shot) is equal to the usual FG% of that same player on average this year.
While as a rookie players shot 4.5% better on him than on average, which is a HUGE difference as a defender.

2. Otto Porter DFG% is 3.4% lower than the average FG%- meaning he was a good defender this year.
While as a rookie players shot only 0.5 precent worse on him, again a huge difference in defense from first to second year.

3. Anthony Davis was supposed to be a defensive monster from the moment he reached the league, his rookie year he made players shot 2.7% worse on him- which is pretty good, but in his second year he became MUCH better- making opponents shot 6.2% worse than usual.

Of course that the FG% of your opponent isn't the only part of defense but it does goes to show that between year one and year two players can improve a lot defensively.

Could WCS be a solid/plus defender his rookie year? maybe, but I doubt he will be good enough on defense for you to want to start him despite his offense.

There's definitely an adjustment period. Not only to the size and speed of players at the NBA level but to the rigors of the game itself. WCS played 26 mpg this last season in 39 games. Both were the most of his college career. To ask him to play a few more minutes as an NBA starter in more than twice as many games (and often on back to backs, three games in four nights etc) is a recipe for hitting the rookie wall hard. I think Cauley-Stein will adapt to the NBA relatively quickly given his physical attributes, skillset and the role the Kings are going to want him to play. Still, the team will be best off slowly working him in at first.

My guess is that the Kings starting PF will either be Cousins (with Koufos at C) or Rudy Gay. Maybe either one depending on the night's matchup. After tje all-star break perhaps even Cauley-Stein.

 

[Bricklayer]

People forget that WCS is an old rookie by modern standards. Once upon a time when all rookies were like WCS there was no such rule about "oh gotta let them develop" etc. Guys developed in college and could walk right in as stars even. A few needed a year or two. But many high picks were effective starters from Day 1. How long did it take a Duncan or Hakeem or Zo to start defending at the NBA level (Admiral and Deke both came in even older and so had a huge edge)?

WCS is going to be asked to contribute in a very small box. If he can excel in that small box (defense) its going to be hard for him to struggle enough in other aspects of the game he's simply not going to be asked to perform to keep him off the floor. A huge issue for a lot of rooks, and especially kid rooks is defense. Well, my prediction is that's not going to be an issue for WCS. He might not dominate the league from Day 1, but he's got more than enough length and athleticism to be a factor from Day 1. Other issues center around efficiency and decisionmaking...except there are going to be precious few opportunities for WCS to struggle at either. He's not going to be making a lot of decisions and the majority of his offense is going to be clean up work, which is always kind of a bonus. There's no size adjustment for WCS. Indeed if he's guarding PFs they may on average be no larger than the centers he was guarding in college. In short WCS's job -- stay long, stick to your man, help defend, hustle both ways on the break -- is stuff well within his wheelhouse. If he was being thrown out there in the midst of a total rebuild as THE big man on our young team and needing to do things outside his comfort zone maybe not. But he's not. He's being sandwiched in between two veteran 20pt scorers who already played all last year with no better options at his spot than Jason Thompson. He's not going to have to do much to fill that hole, and what he is being asked to do should be possible for a 21yr old rookie. Hustle, defend, use your length.

 

[Jkbiker]

So with the Bargs signing , I think we have our 10 man Rotation 2 deep at each
Position
Cuz,Koufos,WCS,Bargs,Gay,Casspi,Ben, Marcos,Rondo,Collison

FA Part 4? Sign 3rd PG - Miller ? 11th Player

12th Player Butler
13th, 14th Player, Anderson Moreland
15th Stockton prob waived

 

[LPKingsFan]

No snark intended, but that's essentially the same question as "Player X was a three point specialist in college. Can't he be a three point specialist as a rookie in the NBA?" The answer is usually either "no" or "maybe, but in limited minutes and after an adjustment period". Very few teams with playoff aspirations (which I would hazard the Kings are) will be dependent on a rookie in a starting position. At least not to begin the season.



There's definitely an adjustment period. Not only to the size and speed of players at the NBA level but to the rigors of the game itself. WCS played 26 mpg this last season in 39 games. Both were the most of his college career. To ask him to play a few more minutes as an NBA starter in more than twice as many games (and often on back to backs, three games in four nights etc) is a recipe for hitting the rookie wall hard. I think Cauley-Stein will adapt to the NBA relatively quickly given his physical attributes, skillset and the role the Kings are going to want him to play. Still, the team will be best off slowly working him in at first.

My guess is that the Kings starting PF will either be Cousins (with Koufos at C) or Rudy Gay. Maybe either one depending on the night's matchup. After tje all-star break perhaps even Cauley-Stein.

I don't see why starting him requires playing him more than 26 mpg.

 

[ockingsfan]

Last piece of the puzzle?

When is Andre Miller going to be re-signed as the third PG or will Little Stockton be the third PG?

 

[Sac.1989]

i might be one of the few here but Marcus Thornton just signed a one year deal for the vet min.

Would have happily bought him back for some bench scoring and range from 3

 

[Bricklayer]

i might be one of the few here but Marcus Thornton just signed a one year deal for the vet min.

Would have happily bought him back for some bench scoring and range from 3

As SG #4?