Joerger and Casspi haven't talked since the preseason

[funkykingston]

http://basketball.realgm.com/wiretap/244066/Omri-Casspi-Dave-Joerger-Havent-Talked-Since-Preseason

I just don't understand this. Omri isn't a world beater but he could be helping this team.

You have a 40% three point shooter who is a fantastic rebounder for a SF and therefore doesn't hurt you on the boards as a stretch 4 and who has shown that he thrives in that role next to Gay.

Why not start Casspi instead of Barnes and let Barnes get the bulk of the backup minutes at both forward spots unless the other team goes big at the 4?

This team has awful spacing. To me changing the starting five to:

Collison
Temple
Gay
Casspi
Cousins

just makes a ton of sense. With Joerger playing guys like Ben, WCS, & Tolliver really short minutes I'm guessing he's looking for something that works. Why not at least give Omri a shot?

 

[Capt. Factorial]

It would seem that Joerger and Casspi haven't talked about Casspi's role in the rotation since preseason. I don't think this is intended to say that they are not on speaking terms.

 

[funkykingston]

It would seem that Joerger and Casspi haven't talked about Casspi's role in the rotation since preseason. I don't think this is intended to say that they are not on speaking terms.

Yes, that's how I read it too. I should have clarified but I was just taking the article title as-is.

 

[HighFlyingMonkey]

I agree with you that Casspi should be getting more minutes. Not sure I agree that he should be starting, but he should be in the rotation. There are some inefficiencies in Joerger's rotation that I think are holding the team back.

First, the Tolliver/WCS duo is not contributing and honestly should not be playing. WCS has been given every chance to succeed and simply has not grasped it. He looks awful as the lone big when the Kings go small because he isn't that refined as a rim protector and he doesn't rebound. When the Kings put him at PF next to either Koufos or Cousins, the lack of spacing is glaring. Tolliver hasn't shot the three well at all ever since that preseason game against the Lakers.

Casspi should be getting both of their minutes. He's proven himself over the past couple years as a plus rebounder and shooter, and at least adequate defender. If the Kings aren't going big with Koufos/Cousins, or small with a defensive bent with Barnes and one of Koufos/Cousins, they should be going small with an offensive bent with Casspi and one of Koufos/Cousins. That gives the Kings a reasonable nine-man rotation for the regular season, which is a healthy amount of guys to play so everyone playing gets enough minutes to make an impact.

Collison/Temple/Gay/Barnes/Cousins should be the starters, and Lawson/Afflalo/Casspi/Koufos off the bench should be the main rotation. You can sprinkle in minutes for McLemore on an as-needed basis since he seems a lot more explosive this year. That's 10 men max.

 

[funkykingston]

I agree with you that Casspi should be getting more minutes. Not sure I agree that he should be starting, but he should be in the rotation. There are some inefficiencies in Joerger's rotation that I think are holding the team back.

First, the Tolliver/WCS duo is not contributing and honestly should not be playing. WCS has been given every chance to succeed and simply has not grasped it. He looks awful as the lone big when the Kings go small because he isn't that refined as a rim protector and he doesn't rebound. When the Kings put him at PF next to either Koufos or Cousins, the lack of spacing is glaring. Tolliver hasn't shot the three well at all ever since that preseason game against the Lakers.

Casspi should be getting both of their minutes. He's proven himself over the past couple years as a plus rebounder and shooter, and at least adequate defender. If the Kings aren't going big with Koufos/Cousins, or small with a defensive bent with Barnes and one of Koufos/Cousins, they should be going small with an offensive bent with Casspi and one of Koufos/Cousins. That gives the Kings a reasonable nine-man rotation for the regular season, which is a healthy amount of guys to play so everyone playing gets enough minutes to make an impact.

Collison/Temple/Gay/Barnes/Cousins should be the starters, and Lawson/Afflalo/Casspi/Koufos off the bench should be the main rotation. You can sprinkle in minutes for McLemore on an as-needed basis since he seems a lot more explosive this year. That's 10 men max.

In that setup the Kings could go small with Afflalo at the 3 and Ben at the 2 for spurts.

But I agree. If Willie comes around then he and Koufos can battle it out for backup C minutes (or trade off depending on matchups) but otherwise those are the guys I want to see playing and pretty much the same rotations I want to see.

 

[IfAt1st]

Yep - agreed.
IMO it's the disrespect this suggests, as well as the possible wedge it could lead by dismissing Cuz's loyal teammate if true.

Brought it up two days ago: http://www.kingsfans.com/threads/ty...-takes-them-serious.66757/page-2#post-1281705

 

[Jimbob]

Vlade brought in too many vets creating a bit of a mess.
For Omri's sake I hope this does not drag out much longer.

 

[kingsboi]

Omri just needs to get traded all ready, he was the odd man out and the writings were on the wall IMO. Omri is a shaqtin a fool candidate every time he steps out on the floor, for every nice play he has, he negates that with multiple head scratchers.

 

[Jimbob]

Yeah, multiple teams have shown interest in Omri.
If he does'nt fit here I am sure he could bring us an asset that makes more sense.

Its early but I am beginning to think we will keep our 2017 top 10 protected pick. If Vlade cant deliver on a young promising PG out of this draft class then I have lost all hope for him. If by chance we are in play for Josh Jackson then why not see what young PG Omri might net us now. Any other position just creates a worse logjam than we already have.

 

[funkykingston]

Vlade brought in too many vets creating a bit of a mess.
For Omri's sake I hope this does not drag out much longer.

I honestly don't know what Vlade is trying to do. I could say that in the short term he's trying to give Joerger & Boogie smart vets who play smart defense and know their roles in an attempt to sneak into the playoffs while simultaneously stocking up on young talent.

But even if that's the case, Gay, Collison, McLemore, Lawson and Casspi are all free agents after the season. I believe the Kings have options on Afflalo and Tolliver. WCS looks lost and none of the rookies look ready to play in the NBA at all other than maybe Richardson in spot minutes if forced to.

This is a very rudderless ship right now. Even if they somehow managed to be an 8th seed they are going to need a new starting and backup PG, new starting SF and/or a new 2nd scorer next to Cousins.

At this point I hope they are at least taking calls for Boogie. For his sake and the franchise's. Because next summer looks like it will either be a rebuild or yet another major patch job.

 

[Kingsfan23]

http://basketball.realgm.com/wiretap/244066/Omri-Casspi-Dave-Joerger-Havent-Talked-Since-Preseason

I just don't understand this. Omri isn't a world beater but he could be helping this team.

You have a 40% three point shooter who is a fantastic rebounder for a SF and therefore doesn't hurt you on the boards as a stretch 4 and who has shown that he thrives in that role next to Gay.

Why not start Casspi instead of Barnes and let Barnes get the bulk of the backup minutes at both forward spots unless the other team goes big at the 4?

This team has awful spacing. To me changing the starting five to:

Collison
Temple
Gay
Casspi
Cousins

just makes a ton of sense. With Joerger playing guys like Ben, WCS, & Tolliver really short minutes I'm guessing he's looking for something that works. Why not at least give Omri a shot?

Great post. Very good. I concur on that starting lineup and was pushing for Omri/Gay starting at forwards in the offseason

 

[Jimbob]

I honestly don't know what Vlade is trying to do. I could say that in the short term he's trying to give Joerger & Boogie smart vets who play smart defense and know their roles in an attempt to sneak into the playoffs while simultaneously stocking up on young talent.

But even if that's the case, Gay, Collison, McLemore, Lawson and Casspi are all free agents after the season. I believe the Kings have options on Afflalo and Tolliver. WCS looks lost and none of the rookies look ready to play in the NBA at all other than maybe Richardson in spot minutes if forced to.

This is a very rudderless ship right now. Even if they somehow managed to be an 8th seed they are going to need a new starting and backup PG, new starting SF and/or a new 2nd scorer next to Cousins.

At this point I hope they are at least taking calls for Boogie. For his sake and the franchise's. Because next summer looks like it will either be a rebuild or yet another major patch job.

As much as I dislike the sounds of it, I don't know where cousins loyalty stops. So yes it is smart to field calls for Boogie.

 

[bajaden]

Omri just needs to get traded all ready, he was the odd man out and the writings were on the wall IMO. Omri is a shaqtin a fool candidate every time he steps out on the floor, for every nice play he has, he negates that with multiple head scratchers.

You know to be fair to Omri, he really doesn't turn the ball over that much. I know it appears that way because when he does turn it over, it's usually glaring. But he averages just over one turnover a game. 1.4 to be exact while Cuz averages around 3.5 and Gay averages 2.2. I think the main reason he's not playing is because he's actually more of an iso player than people realize. Once the ball is in Omri's hands, he's usually intent on scoring. He'll either shoot a three, if he's open, or more likely, he'll put the ball on the floor and drive into the lane and throw up a shot. I admit that some of those shots are ill advised.

Anyway, Joerger is looking for more ball movement, and Casspi isn't a ball mover, he's an iso player, who along with Cousins and Gay, makes one iso player too many.

 

[Jimbob]

Great post. Very good. I concur on that starting lineup and was pushing for Omri/Gay starting at forwards in the offseason

I may sound like an advocate for trading Omri , but its more a play him or trade him for me. Its not like Willi or Tolliver are tearing it up.

I wish Joerger would just pick a game and say, today we are going to live or die with Omri playing meaningful minutes.

 

[bajaden]

I honestly don't know what Vlade is trying to do. I could say that in the short term he's trying to give Joerger & Boogie smart vets who play smart defense and know their roles in an attempt to sneak into the playoffs while simultaneously stocking up on young talent.

But even if that's the case, Gay, Collison, McLemore, Lawson and Casspi are all free agents after the season. I believe the Kings have options on Afflalo and Tolliver. WCS looks lost and none of the rookies look ready to play in the NBA at all other than maybe Richardson in spot minutes if forced to.

This is a very rudderless ship right now. Even if they somehow managed to be an 8th seed they are going to need a new starting and backup PG, new starting SF and/or a new 2nd scorer next to Cousins.

At this point I hope they are at least taking calls for Boogie. For his sake and the franchise's. Because next summer looks like it will either be a rebuild or yet another major patch job.

I've had multiple conversations with knowledgeble basketball fans, and I'd be lying if I didn't admit being nervous about the future of the Kings. There are a lot things that don't make sense, and I won't go into all of them right now, but there are some obvious one's staring us right in the face. Gay is one! We have to trade him, and I realize that it's more likely to come near the trade deadline. But if we assume that he will be traded, then are we really trying to make the playoffs this year? It could be argued that Gay has been consistently the best player on the team this year. Yeah I know that Cousins has scored more points, but when you look at Gay's defense, and that he's only had two bad offensive games, vr's Boogie's inefficiency in some games, Gay would have to be in the running.

Then as you mentioned, there's McLemore. Once again he could be traded at the deadline, but unless we already have some trades worked out, were looking at making a lot of moves at the deadline. Lawson I don't care about, but there's the unlilely possibility of us losing Gay, McLemore, Collison, and Casspi and getting nothing in return. And if the Kings decide not to keep Afflalo and Tolliver, we would be looking at entirely new team again next year. I'm trying to convince myself that there's a plan in there somewhere, but if there is, it's very well hidden. Next year's draft is loaded with PG's, some of which I can guarantee will be starting PG's in the NBA, and it's possible we won't even have a draft pick.

Who know, maybe they'll trade Cousins too and and we'll have 15 first and second year players on the team next year. By the way, I watched two game with Richardson with the Reno team, and he played extremely well. He had 28 pts in his last game and got to the basket at will. When he's squared up, he's a deadly shooter.

 

[kingsboi]

You know to be fair to Omri, he really doesn't turn the ball over that much. I know it appears that way because when he does turn it over, it's usually glaring. But he averages just over one turnover a game. 1.4 to be exact while Cuz averages around 3.5 and Gay averages 2.2. I think the main reason he's not playing is because he's actually more of an iso player than people realize. Once the ball is in Omri's hands, he's usually intent on scoring. He'll either shoot a three, if he's open, or more likely, he'll put the ball on the floor and drive into the lane and throw up a shot. I admit that some of those shots are ill advised.

Anyway, Joerger is looking for more ball movement, and Casspi isn't a ball mover, he's an iso player, who along with Cousins and Gay, makes one iso player too many.

You forgot to mention also that Joerger is looking for more players that are looking and able to play defense, Omri doesn't fit that bill IMO.

 

[funkykingston]

I've had multiple conversations with knowledgeble basketball fans, and I'd be lying if I didn't admit being nervous about the future of the Kings. There are a lot things that don't make sense, and I won't go into all of them right now, but there are some obvious one's staring us right in the face. Gay is one! We have to trade him, and I realize that it's more likely to come near the trade deadline. But if we assume that he will be traded, then are we really trying to make the playoffs this year? It could be argued that Gay has been consistently the best player on the team this year. Yeah I know that Cousins has scored more points, but when you look at Gay's defense, and that he's only had two bad offensive games, vr's Boogie's inefficiency in some games, Gay would have to be in the running.

Then as you mentioned, there's McLemore. Once again he could be traded at the deadline, but unless we already have some trades worked out, were looking at making a lot of moves at the deadline. Lawson I don't care about, but there's the unlilely possibility of us losing Gay, McLemore, Collison, and Casspi and getting nothing in return. And if the Kings decide not to keep Afflalo and Tolliver, we would be looking at entirely new team again next year. I'm trying to convince myself that there's a plan in there somewhere, but if there is, it's very well hidden. Next year's draft is loaded with PG's, some of which I can guarantee will be starting PG's in the NBA, and it's possible we won't even have a draft pick.

Who know, maybe they'll trade Cousins too and and we'll have 15 first and second year players on the team next year. By the way, I watched two game with Richardson with the Reno team, and he played extremely well. He had 28 pts in his last game and got to the basket at will. When he's squared up, he's a deadly shooter.

I'm not concerned with the Kings losing Lawson either except that if Collison goes it means you're losing both of the PGs that spent a year in Joerger's system and starting all over again at point guard.

I've spent a lot of time trying to figure out what the Kings are doing and the only conclusion I can come to is that they are hedging their bets. They want to win now with Cousins but if that doesn't happen they are prepared to deal him and rebuild. It explains why they held onto guys with expiring contracts and signed free agents mostly in a way that gives them cap flexibility next summer if they want it. And either Gay is part of that strategy (maybe thinking that if they turn things around he'd consider staying?) or they couldn't trade him because they either got low ball offers or were expecting too much in return.

Last night was kind of eye opening for me. Yes, Cousins got ticky tack fouls in the first half and then got hacked over and over in the 2nd without the fouls getting called but he also just looked mentally checked out. This was a winnable game (they DID win after all) against a good team when the Kings were on a slide and I expected Boogie to come out in the second half with real fire and determination and he just looked disinterested and lackadaisical - content to float on the perimeter and brick shot after shot. He was almost always the last guy up the floor on either team and on either end. I wondered if he was injured because he looked like a shell of himself. I almost hoped he was injured because otherwise it just meant he was taken out of the game mentally. And that's scary to me because it means he's just not a mentally tough enough guy to build around and to win with. As a huge Cousins fan/supporter, it was really disappointing. Hopefully there was a reason for his lack of effort or it was just a blip. Who knows?

Glad to hear that Richardson is doing well in Reno. He was literally maybe my least favorite draft prospect. I really didn't want Skal either and didn't know anything about Papagiannis. Hopefully they turn out to be solid players.

But that's the thing. I remember PDA in his first draft saying that they wanted to swing for the fences. I can't fault them for taking McLemore but swinging for the fences would have been Giannis Antetokounmpo. Stauskas was another safe pick and this season he's starting to look like the role player I thought he could be. I liked Payton but LaVine was probably the swing for the fences pick. I very much wanted Cauley-Stein (and I hope he turns things around to be the quicker Tyson Chandler with a jump shot type guy that I thought he could be) but there were definitely higher upside picks. Oubre wasn't a guy I loved but he was a boom or bust prospect.

And honestly a team like the Kings needs to gamble on those guys. They can sign role players as free agents. That's about all they can sign really. So the draft really should be a time to gamble big. This year I thought that would have been Marquese Chriss at 8 and DeJounte Murray at 22. I would have also liked to have seen them deal Ben for a late 1st or early 2nd. Zubac, McCaw and Onuaku were guys I liked a lot. But I digress.

The Kings are in a bad spot now. Outside of Cousins (who can leave after next season) they have nothing to build on. The pick swap with Philly might well end up hurting a good deal but I think it's time to tear things down. Otherwise they are looking at either another bad quick fix or a full rebuild around Cousins. Either way, this team is not going to be winning any time soon. And there's a long, long string of bad moves that they have to blame for that.

If the Kings fail to make the playoffs this season that will make ELEVEN straight trips to the lottery. And right now all they have to show for that is DeMarcus Cousins. Ben is most likely gone. Willie is disappointing at the moment and the three picks this season have yet to show they are NBA players at all. And now even a chance to rebuild is hampered by Philly having a pick swap and owning the 2019 1st rounder outright.

Vlade and co have to figure out what direction this team is headed. Because right now I don't see a plan or much of chance of future success. Frustrating.

 

[hrdboild]

I've had multiple conversations with knowledgeble basketball fans, and I'd be lying if I didn't admit being nervous about the future of the Kings. There are a lot things that don't make sense, and I won't go into all of them right now, but there are some obvious one's staring us right in the face. Gay is one! We have to trade him, and I realize that it's more likely to come near the trade deadline. But if we assume that he will be traded, then are we really trying to make the playoffs this year? It could be argued that Gay has been consistently the best player on the team this year. Yeah I know that Cousins has scored more points, but when you look at Gay's defense, and that he's only had two bad offensive games, vr's Boogie's inefficiency in some games, Gay would have to be in the running.

Then as you mentioned, there's McLemore. Once again he could be traded at the deadline, but unless we already have some trades worked out, were looking at making a lot of moves at the deadline. Lawson I don't care about, but there's the unlilely possibility of us losing Gay, McLemore, Collison, and Casspi and getting nothing in return. And if the Kings decide not to keep Afflalo and Tolliver, we would be looking at entirely new team again next year. I'm trying to convince myself that there's a plan in there somewhere, but if there is, it's very well hidden. Next year's draft is loaded with PG's, some of which I can guarantee will be starting PG's in the NBA, and it's possible we won't even have a draft pick.

Who know, maybe they'll trade Cousins too and and we'll have 15 first and second year players on the team next year. By the way, I watched two game with Richardson with the Reno team, and he played extremely well. He had 28 pts in his last game and got to the basket at will. When he's squared up, he's a deadly shooter.

We should be expecting Bogdanovic to come over next year too -- that's the guy we traded our top pick for this year, not Papagiannis or Labissiere. Vlade thought he was worthy of a top 10 pick so he should be in the long-term plans. I don't think he drafted Richardson without expecting him to be on the team for the next 4 years also and he just gave Temple a 3 year contract so that means McLemore is going to be the odd man out. I'd like to see us trade him for some value instead of just letting him leave, but every GM in the league can make the same deductions that we can. Part of the reason I'm so down on the team this year is that the long-term outlook is heading in a worrying direction. You and funkykingston did a good job of outlining the problem. Gay and Collison are expiring contracts. That's 2/3 of our starting lineup. Casspi is an expiring contract -- he's been the most consistent bench contributor the last 2 years. I tend to think that forcing him out of the rotation completely has something to do with salary leverage in the future, but that's a pretty crapty way to operate. $20 million for Afflalo and Tolliver next season doesn't make sense at their current level of production. Cauley-Stein is losing playing time. Matt Barnes is moving into his late 30s. We're looking at rebuilding basically the entire roster next season. The possibility of making the playoffs in that context doesn't really excite me the way that you would expect it to after a 10 year drought.

I'm not sure why you used the word "unlikely" though. Gay wants out, he's already said so. Omri can't be happy with his situation. I don't know about Collison but he'll probably have championship level teams with cap space trying to sign him so I don't see why he would pick a losing team in Sacramento instead unless he really loves living there or something. McLemore doesn't even have minutes in the projected lineup next year. I think it's quite likely we lose all 6 of the players you mentioned with no compensation unless we wheel and deal them mid-season and we don't seem to have much of a plan for working Willie back into the lineup either. Unless we get some decent trade returns, we may have no choice but to trade DeMarcus because it will be him and a bare roster in a city that never signs free agents. It's easy to be pessimistic in those circumstances.

I always try to be positive about the future of this team though. I've suggested some guys I think we could get. Nerlens Noel is going to be traded it's just a matter of when. Stanley Johnson is really struggling in Detroit right now and may be out of the rotation. I believe both those guys are really talented and could flourish in the right situation. You guys can think of some names you'd prefer, but regardless we need young talent coming in. Bogdanovic at least looks like he should be a solid starter and Richardson and Labissiere look promising as well. This draft is very PG heavy at the top and given our current PG situation (crickets) we should probably prioritize getting a PG in the draft if possible. Yeah they probably aren't going to be ready to lead us to the playoffs in their rookie season, but we're rapidly approaching a situation where it isn't Cousins + kids anymore, it's going to be just the kids. I'm not happy about that, it just is what it is. We have one year to building something around him and we all know it's not going to come from free agency.

 

[gunks]

Well, you guys really know how to cheer me up!

 

[Bricklayer]

I honestly don't know what Vlade is trying to do. I could say that in the short term he's trying to give Joerger & Boogie smart vets who play smart defense and know their roles in an attempt to sneak into the playoffs while simultaneously stocking up on young talent.

But even if that's the case, Gay, Collison, McLemore, Lawson and Casspi are all free agents after the season. I believe the Kings have options on Afflalo and Tolliver. WCS looks lost and none of the rookies look ready to play in the NBA at all other than maybe Richardson in spot minutes if forced to.

This is a very rudderless ship right now. Even if they somehow managed to be an 8th seed they are going to need a new starting and backup PG, new starting SF and/or a new 2nd scorer next to Cousins.

At this point I hope they are at least taking calls for Boogie. For his sake and the franchise's. Because next summer looks like it will either be a rebuild or yet another major patch job.

Guys...GUYS...

NOT RUDDERLESS!

Intentional, well thought out plan. OBVIOUS plan. It may work, it may not, but people continuing to call an obvious plan rudderless just because they don't like it are being disingenuous.

Yes, we have exactly:

-- brought in a veteran minded win-right now coach who coaches bigs as well as any coach in the NBA
-- brought in as many gritty veteran roleplayer types as we could stack up, dumped them on his porch, and said here you go, make of it what you can
-- and included in that concept is the concept of depth btw -- as long as Cousins stays healthy, we have enough quality people to fill in almost everywhere if somebody turns an ankle.
-- and yes, we have INTENTIONALLY set up the contracts to start going poof next year, for two reasons:
a) if we turn the corner and win enough to make the playoffs, we will have the ability to go shopping, either to resign guys, or upgrade with our new improved stature
b) if we don't turn the corner and have to move Cuz, we have the ability to quickly shed the vets and start going all kiddie all the time. We have limited the awkward transition period without many lingering long term veteran muck contracts to hold us back from the full rebuild dive.

this is NOT "rudderless". This is intentional. Now all that remains is to see if it works. Having a very good coach gives it a chance.

Now Omri's position is lamentable, but a predictable possibility given Rudy's great start. In the last few games we have really begun to see Joerger's coaching soul exposed. He hates sloppiness. Mental, loose plays, loose turnovers. Ben and Willie are on an incredibly short leash right now. Come in, either play like vets, or a quick yank and we'll get somebody who does. Omri remains a possibility, I think especially to get a look at being more effective than Tolliver/WCS have been, now that Kosta is back to backup center. But his game is inherently gaffe prone. Always has been. To a coach attempting to grind off the franchise's sloppy give away possessions nature, to a coach who would prefer a gritty roleplayer who puts up minimal numbers but makes minimal mistakes, Omri still has a wildcard feel to him. An injury, and suddenly he's the depth that keeps us going. But on 50/50 calls of who to put in, its pretty clear Joerger remains eternally scared of Omri ****ing up. And from the few times we did see Omri this year, you could see that in his play at well -- for better at worse he's at his best when he's free flowing and making a boneheaded error every few minutes. But when we saw him this season it was clear he was scared of making mistakes, and in the process wasn't making any good plays either. What's desired by the coach is a discipline that I am not sure comes naturally to Omri at all, who had his best seasons in uptempo open court situations.

As the season goes along and the trade deadline approaches, one of three things will likely have happened. Either:

a) Omri will have earned Joerger's trust and snuck into a backup role (I suppose the starter with our eternal PF problem is possible)
b) we will have had an injury making our depth with Omri important to keep us moving forward; or
c) Vlade, being Vlade, I think will grant Omri a trade to somebody to get his value up for free agency.

but none of that is necessarily going to happen now IN NOVEMBER. Jeesh. A month ago we hadn't even started the season.

 

[Jimbob]

Some good post.
I recon most of us are a bit confused regarding the direction of this team. Lots of lose parts, repetitious players, questionable draft thought processes, and expiring contracts.
I really hope to see some movement soon even if it appears minor. That may help determine at the trade deadline if we need to seriously blow things up or if we can build something positive with the current core.

 

[Iced Espresso]

He was terrible in pre season.

Barnes looks good. Rudy has been balling.

Tolliver isn't playing much, and has been offensively bad, so maybe he should be looking there a bit for opportunity.

 

[kingsboi]

I'm not concerned with the Kings losing Lawson either except that if Collison goes it means you're losing both of the PGs that spent a year in Joerger's system and starting all over again at point guard.

I've spent a lot of time trying to figure out what the Kings are doing and the only conclusion I can come to is that they are hedging their bets. They want to win now with Cousins but if that doesn't happen they are prepared to deal him and rebuild. It explains why they held onto guys with expiring contracts and signed free agents mostly in a way that gives them cap flexibility next summer if they want it. And either Gay is part of that strategy (maybe thinking that if they turn things around he'd consider staying?) or they couldn't trade him because they either got low ball offers or were expecting too much in return.

Last night was kind of eye opening for me. Yes, Cousins got ticky tack fouls in the first half and then got hacked over and over in the 2nd without the fouls getting called but he also just looked mentally checked out. This was a winnable game (they DID win after all) against a good team when the Kings were on a slide and I expected Boogie to come out in the second half with real fire and determination and he just looked disinterested and lackadaisical - content to float on the perimeter and brick shot after shot. He was almost always the last guy up the floor on either team and on either end. I wondered if he was injured because he looked like a shell of himself. I almost hoped he was injured because otherwise it just meant he was taken out of the game mentally. And that's scary to me because it means he's just not a mentally tough enough guy to build around and to win with. As a huge Cousins fan/supporter, it was really disappointing. Hopefully there was a reason for his lack of effort or it was just a blip. Who knows?

Glad to hear that Richardson is doing well in Reno. He was literally maybe my least favorite draft prospect. I really didn't want Skal either and didn't know anything about Papagiannis. Hopefully they turn out to be solid players.

But that's the thing. I remember PDA in his first draft saying that they wanted to swing for the fences. I can't fault them for taking McLemore but swinging for the fences would have been Giannis Antetokounmpo. Stauskas was another safe pick and this season he's starting to look like the role player I thought he could be. I liked Payton but LaVine was probably the swing for the fences pick. I very much wanted Cauley-Stein (and I hope he turns things around to be the quicker Tyson Chandler with a jump shot type guy that I thought he could be) but there were definitely higher upside picks. Oubre wasn't a guy I loved but he was a boom or bust prospect.

And honestly a team like the Kings needs to gamble on those guys. They can sign role players as free agents. That's about all they can sign really. So the draft really should be a time to gamble big. This year I thought that would have been Marquese Chriss at 8 and DeJounte Murray at 22. I would have also liked to have seen them deal Ben for a late 1st or early 2nd. Zubac, McCaw and Onuaku were guys I liked a lot. But I digress.

The Kings are in a bad spot now. Outside of Cousins (who can leave after next season) they have nothing to build on. The pick swap with Philly might well end up hurting a good deal but I think it's time to tear things down. Otherwise they are looking at either another bad quick fix or a full rebuild around Cousins. Either way, this team is not going to be winning any time soon. And there's a long, long string of bad moves that they have to blame for that.

If the Kings fail to make the playoffs this season that will make ELEVEN straight trips to the lottery. And right now all they have to show for that is DeMarcus Cousins. Ben is most likely gone. Willie is disappointing at the moment and the three picks this season have yet to show they are NBA players at all. And now even a chance to rebuild is hampered by Philly having a pick swap and owning the 2019 1st rounder outright.

Vlade and co have to figure out what direction this team is headed. Because right now I don't see a plan or much of chance of future success. Frustrating.

This is the most painful thing to read out of all. Spinning in an endless cycle of mediocrity with no future success in sight. It might get to a point where it might be time to take a break from following this team unless a direction is established, and hopefully sooner rather than later. Give the fans a reason to feel optimistic and not dread the day whether a full rebuilding move is too late.

 

[funkykingston]

Guys...GUYS...

NOT RUDDERLESS!

Intentional, well thought out plan. OBVIOUS plan. It may work, it may not, but people continuing to call an obvious plan rudderless just because they don't like it are being disingenuous.

Yes, we have exactly:

-- brought in a veteran minded win-right now coach who coaches bigs as well as any coach in the NBA
-- brought in as many gritty veteran roleplayer types as we could stack up, dumped them on his porch, and said here you go, make of it what you can
-- and included in that concept is the concept of depth btw -- as long as Cousins stays healthy, we have enough quality people to fill in almost everywhere if somebody turns an ankle.
-- and yes, we have INTENTIONALLY set up the contracts to start going poof next year, for two reasons:
a) if we turn the corner and win enough to make the playoffs, we will have the ability to go shopping, either to resign guys, or upgrade with our new improved statute
b) if we don't turn the corner and have to move Cuz, we have the ability to quickly shed the vets and start going all kiddie all the time. We have limited the awkward transition period without much lingering long term veteran muck contracts to hold us back from the full rebuild dive.

this is NOT "rudderless". This is intentional. Now all that remains is to see if it works. Having a very good coach gives it a chance.

Now Omri's position is lamentable, but a predictable possibility given Rudy's great start. In the last few games we have really begun to see Joerger's coaching soul exposed. He hates sloppiness. Mental, loose plays, loose turnovers. Ben and Willie are on an incredibly short leash right now. Come in, either play like vets, or a quick yank and we'll get somebody who does. Omri remains a possibility, I think especially to get a look at being more effective than Tolliver/WCS have been, now that Kosta is back to backup center. But his game is inherently gaffe prone. Always has been. To a coach attempting to grind off the franchise's sloppy give away possessions nature, to a coach who would prefer a gritty roleplayer who puts up minimal numbers but makes minimal mistakes, Omri still has a wildcard feel to him. An injury, and suddenly he's the depth that keeps us going. But on 50/50 calls of who to put in, its pretty clear Joerger remains eternally scared of Omri ****ing up. And from the few times we did see Omri this year, you could see that in his play at well -- for better at worse he's at his best when he's free flowing and making a boneheaded error every few minutes. But when we saw him this season it was clear he was scared of making mistakes, and in the process wasn't making any good plays either. What's desired by the coach is a discipline that I am not sure comes naturally to Omri at all, who had his best seasons in uptempo open court situations.

As the season goes along and the trade deadline approaches, one of three things will likely have happened. Either:

a) Omri will have earned Joerger's trust and snuck into a backup role (I suppose the starter with our eternal PF problem is possible)
b) we will have had an injury making our depth with Omri important to keep us moving forward; or
c) Vlade, being Vlade, I think will grant Omri a trade to somebody to get his value up for free agency.

but none of that is necessarily going to happen now IN NOVEMBER. Jeesh. A month ago we hadn't even started the season.

As I said, that's my read of what Vlade is doing. Trying to win now with gritty vets while hedging his bets if they have to move on from Cousins.

I can see that as the plan. I just think it's a stupid plan.

If they manage to be successful at winning now with Cousins and squeak into the playoffs there's nothing left to build on.

Gay is likely gone regardless so they have to patch things up this summer to give another shot at squeaking into the playoffs but with somewhat longer odds.

At best it's a plan for treadmill mediocrity of a slightly higher level than the doldrums the team has been stuck in.

I like the guys on this team. But there isn't anybody that still has enough growth in their game to take this team to the next level. And the youth with potential includes McLemore who has a limited ceiling and is likely gone this summer, Willie who currently looks lost on both ends and Papagiannis who doesn't look like he even belongs in the NBA. That leaves Richardson who has some potential as an athletically limited 3&D wing and Labissiere who is maybe the only intriguing young guy left but also has a long way to go.

But the reality is that there aren't many good plans to quickly turn things around for a team that has blown 5 or 6 lottery picks in the last 7 or 8 years.

 

[Kingsfan23]

As I said, that's my read of what Vlade is doing. Trying to win now with gritty vets while hedging his bets if they have to move on from Cousins.

I can see that as the plan. I just think it's a stupid plan.

If they manage to be successful at winning now with Cousins and squeak into the playoffs there's nothing left to build on.

Gay is likely gone regardless so they have to patch things up this summer to give another shot at squeaking into the playoffs but with somewhat longer odds.

At best it's a plan for treadmill mediocrity of a slightly higher level than the doldrums the team has been stuck in.

I like the guys on this team. But there isn't anybody that still has enough growth in their game to take this team to the next level. And the youth with potential includes McLemore who has a limited ceiling and is likely gone this summer, Willie who currently looks lost on both ends and Papagiannis who doesn't look like he even belongs in the NBA. That leaves Richardson who has some potential as an athletically limited 3&D wing and Labissiere who is maybe the only intriguing young guy left but also has a long way to go.

But the reality is that there are many good plans to quickly turn things around for a team that has blown 5 or 6 lottery picks in the last 7 or 8 years.

The point of the draft is getting a guy like Cousins to build around, though.

I think there is enough talent to compete. Schedule has been rough so far. Even putting together a lineup with Collison/Temple/Gay/Casspi or Barnes and Cousins should compete once Joerger stops playing negative players and formulates the starters according to the teams best players

But, IMO the team might not have the blowup item at its disposal as Cousins trade value is arguable. Even before the slippage in efficiency the guy has an outside reputation a mile long. someone has to want and be able to give equitable value for his talent to even think of moving him

 

[funkykingston]

The point of the draft is getting a guy like Cousins to build around, though.

I think there is enough talent to compete. Schedule has been rough so far. Even putting together a lineup with Collison/Temple/Gay/Casspi or Barnes and Cousins should compete once Joerger stops playing negative players and formulates the starters according to the teams best players

But, IMO the team might not have the blowup item at its disposal as Cousins trade value is arguable. Even before the slippage in efficiency the guy has an outside reputation a mile long. someone has to want and be able to give equitable value for his talent to even think of moving him

The point of the draft is to add talent. And when you score a potential franchise guy then the aim is to draft guys to help build around him.

Just landing one star in the draft isn't enough if you can't help him win enough games to escape the lottery.

And again, it's good of they really do have the talent to compete but then what happens after this season?

 

[mac]

Guys...GUYS...

NOT RUDDERLESS!

Intentional, well thought out plan. OBVIOUS plan. It may work, it may not, but people continuing to call an obvious plan rudderless just because they don't like it are being disingenuous.

Yes, we have exactly:

-- brought in a veteran minded win-right now coach who coaches bigs as well as any coach in the NBA
-- brought in as many gritty veteran roleplayer types as we could stack up, dumped them on his porch, and said here you go, make of it what you can
-- and included in that concept is the concept of depth btw -- as long as Cousins stays healthy, we have enough quality people to fill in almost everywhere if somebody turns an ankle.
-- and yes, we have INTENTIONALLY set up the contracts to start going poof next year, for two reasons:
a) if we turn the corner and win enough to make the playoffs, we will have the ability to go shopping, either to resign guys, or upgrade with our new improved stature
b) if we don't turn the corner and have to move Cuz, we have the ability to quickly shed the vets and start going all kiddie all the time. We have limited the awkward transition period without many lingering long term veteran muck contracts to hold us back from the full rebuild dive.

this is NOT "rudderless". This is intentional. Now all that remains is to see if it works. Having a very good coach gives it a chance.

Now Omri's position is lamentable, but a predictable possibility given Rudy's great start. In the last few games we have really begun to see Joerger's coaching soul exposed. He hates sloppiness. Mental, loose plays, loose turnovers. Ben and Willie are on an incredibly short leash right now. Come in, either play like vets, or a quick yank and we'll get somebody who does. Omri remains a possibility, I think especially to get a look at being more effective than Tolliver/WCS have been, now that Kosta is back to backup center. But his game is inherently gaffe prone. Always has been. To a coach attempting to grind off the franchise's sloppy give away possessions nature, to a coach who would prefer a gritty roleplayer who puts up minimal numbers but makes minimal mistakes, Omri still has a wildcard feel to him. An injury, and suddenly he's the depth that keeps us going. But on 50/50 calls of who to put in, its pretty clear Joerger remains eternally scared of Omri ****ing up. And from the few times we did see Omri this year, you could see that in his play at well -- for better at worse he's at his best when he's free flowing and making a boneheaded error every few minutes. But when we saw him this season it was clear he was scared of making mistakes, and in the process wasn't making any good plays either. What's desired by the coach is a discipline that I am not sure comes naturally to Omri at all, who had his best seasons in uptempo open court situations.

As the season goes along and the trade deadline approaches, one of three things will likely have happened. Either:

a) Omri will have earned Joerger's trust and snuck into a backup role (I suppose the starter with our eternal PF problem is possible)
b) we will have had an injury making our depth with Omri important to keep us moving forward; or
c) Vlade, being Vlade, I think will grant Omri a trade to somebody to get his value up for free agency.

but none of that is necessarily going to happen now IN NOVEMBER. Jeesh. A month ago we hadn't even started the season.

The whole no mistakes thing would be more convincing if Matt Barnes wasn't throwing away two full court pass attempts a game

 

[Bricklayer]

The whole no mistakes thing would be more convincing if Matt Barnes wasn't throwing away two full court pass attempts a game

Actually it is -- because you will note that Matt Barnes has had games where he gets pulled quickly for just those sorts of erratic errors. In fact games where Joerger has even said afterward he was pulled for playing like crap.

 

[Bricklayer]

The point of the draft is to add talent. And when you score a potential franchise guy then the aim is to draft guys to help build around him.

Just landing one star in the draft isn't enough if you can't help him win enough games to escape the lottery.

And again, it's good of they really do have the talent to compete but then what happens after this season?

You resign the ones who did well -- and yes, Rudy coming off a winning successful season for this coach might every well resign -- and try to upgrade the ones who didn't. If it looks like you are already on the playoff fringes, maybe you cash in the youth to get some vets to move up.

 

[dude12]

What the hell is up with this rudderless talk?