Is next season going to be a tank year?

Discussion in 'Kings Rap' started by VF21, Apr 13, 2017.

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Should the Kings plan on tanking next season?

Poll closed May 3, 2017.
  1. No

    55.7%
  2. Yes

    25.3%
  3. Depends/don't know

    19.0%
  1. ockingsfan

    ockingsfan Well-Known Member

    I don't think the word "tank" is in coach Joeger's vocabulary.

    You can tell he hated every minute of tanking the last 8 games this season, and quite frankly he wasn't that good at tanking. I just can't see him doing it for a whole season.

    So long as vlade gives coach decent vets and talented young players, he's going to have his team competing and scrapping for every win possible next year.

    That is why, with a year together and 2 lottery picks, I think that the kings will beat their 32 game win total next year! :)

    GO KINGS!!!
    Suicide King and VF21 like this.
  2. Hansel

    Hansel Active Member

    No reason to tank with the roster full of rookies and other under 25 players.
    Probably we are gonna suck anyway and get another top10 pick, but please try to start to build something up at least.
    VF21 likes this.
  3. biltalent

    biltalent Well-Known Member

    Are we really going to suck though? I mean the roster doesnt look too bad actually with a few decent FA signings. And we know Joerger is going to get them to fight. Say we resign Lawson, steal JaMychal Green from the Grizz and bring Bogdanovic over.

    Lawson / Galloway / Rookie 1*
    Hield / Bogdanovic / Richardson
    Temple / Gay / Rookie 2*
    Green / Skal / Tolliver
    Koufos / Wcs / Papagiannis*

    *dleague?

    Is this team an 8th seed? Probably not. But after the cousins trade we were still on a 27 win pace and thats with playing no point guard and PapaG at center. But that starting 5 above is tough as nails and the bench has some nice upside with Bogdan and Willie and a rehabing Rudy Gay. 35 wins? I could see that happen.
    ockingsfan and John Galt like this.
  4. Hansel

    Hansel Active Member

    If we play the youngster and we confirm the same record (30-35 w) I would be more than happy.
    Play hard for 82 games, let youngster play and see how it goes... I think that's a 25-30 w team, but I agree with you that's the way I'd like to see the next season Kings built up.
    No waste of money on free agents, just few addition and see who's in and who's not. Then, next summer, take decisions.

    I'd like to get rid of Rudy as soon as possible, even if looks like a good teammate outside the court.
    And I still have doubts on WCS, but he deserves a full NBA season to be judged properly because he has the tools to be unique.
    Last edited: Apr 19, 2017
  5. kingsboi

    kingsboi Well-Known Member

    Is that really where you want to be at the end of the day though? The Kings need to position themselves to drop in the top 5 IMO in order to give themselves a better opportunity at a franchise cornerstone and winning 30+ games isn't going to get them there. Instead, they will remain in "No Man's land" and keep doing the same thing year in and year out until it gets done properly.
  6. kingsboi

    kingsboi Well-Known Member

    He has had two full NBA seasons under his belt all ready to judge him. He has improved in his second season, a little later than we hoped for, but none the less, he did improve post Boogie.
  7. VF21

    VF21 #KingsFansForever Staff Member Contributor

    This "grass is always greener" view is going to have to stop. You can't continually rebuild the foundation of a house year after year after year. At some point, you have to move forward. That time is going to be now. We've got opportunities for a couple of good picks in a decent draft, we've got some good youth already on the team and we have the requisite veterans to help the kids and teach them, as Anthony Tolliver said, "how to take over our jobs." We also have an incredible coach. It's not gonna get much better.
    Warhawk, jcassio and ockingsfan like this.
  8. ockingsfan

    ockingsfan Well-Known Member

    Here is the facts of the matter. The Kings don't own their 2019 pick, so a full on tank is not going to work for the Kings in the long run.

    When a team goes in full on tank mode, it is a tank for 3-4 years minimum, even if we luck into a top 3 pick next year.

    If we go into tank mode to try and get a top 5 pick next year, we would wind up in the top 5 or 6 in 2019, even though we don't own our 2019 pick. That is not managing your situation well.

    I think it is better to build around our current roster of young players and then, draft our lottery point guard and small forward in this years draft. In the summer, add quality young vets that can grow with the young team, someone like Shabazz Muhammad at Small Forward.

    If we build our roster to compete, they will grow together and become a quality playoff team in the future. If you build to tank, you will be tanking for years, no matter how high you wind up picking.

    We should use teams like Utah, Denver and Portland as a blue print on how to rebuild a quality team, without having to go "full on tank mode" for years on end like Philly.
    VF21 and gunks like this.
  9. LPKingsFan

    LPKingsFan Well-Known Member

    The Jazz are an interesting example. In 2012-13 they went 43-39, missing the playoffs after losing in the first round the year before. They let Jefferson and Millsap walk, and in 13-14 they won 25 games and finished last in the west. The next season they won 38 games, followed by 40 in 15-16 (many expected them to win more) before this season's 50 win return to the playoffs.

    Does their 13-14 count as a "tank" year, if not "full on tank"? I think folks are getting too caught up in nomenclature.
  10. Merdiesel

    Merdiesel Well-Known Member

    I have a feeling it's going to be the Buddy and Bogdon show next year.



    Both have such a great feel for the game and are lethal scorers. Can't wait!
    ockingsfan and VF21 like this.
  11. Larry David

    Larry David Well-Known Member

    OR ... maybe attempt to do a proper and conventional rebuild once despite missing the playoffs for over a decade without ever trying to rebuild. Just a thought.
    Čarolija likes this.
  12. VF21

    VF21 #KingsFansForever Staff Member Contributor

    That's not my point. There are some folks on this board who are always looking on the other side of the fence. At some point, they have to realize that you can't blow up the clown every year and expect people to continue to bother to show up. Sacramento is a passionate fan base, and despite what some think on message boards, most fans who attend games are NOT going to pay premium prices for tickets to a perpetually rebuilding team. We're on the right track now, IMHO, and I firmly believe some people aren't seeing the forest for the trees. To go back to the initial premise of this thread, I cannot imagine the front office, the players or the coaches wanting to inhibit the young players' growth by putting them in positions to lose. They're going to want them to try their best, get better in the process, and maybe just maybe hook a decent free agent to help with the improvement.
    origkds and ockingsfan like this.
  13. VF21

    VF21 #KingsFansForever Staff Member Contributor

    That has me totally intrigued, along with the potential of WCS, Malachi, Skal and PapaG - not to mention whomever we get in the draft. We've got the potential right now to make some waves. A couple of pieces added and IMHO the sky is the limit.
    Last edited: Apr 19, 2017
    ockingsfan likes this.
  14. ockingsfan

    ockingsfan Well-Known Member

    Any new info on Bogdan coming over this summer?
  15. VF21

    VF21 #KingsFansForever Staff Member Contributor

    Might check the Bogdan Bogdanovic thread. :)
  16. kingsboi

    kingsboi Well-Known Member

    If you mean by "getting much better" means a ceiling of 30-35 wins then I want no part of it. In this league, you win with franchise players, the Kings don't have one. They have a lot of nice young players that haven't proven a thing yet. We need to wait at least 3 years for them to come in to their own IMO and even then that won't be a given. That said, drafting in the 7-10 range isn't always feasible, I know more than anyone that you can draft a cornerstone outside of the top 5 so I hope the Kings won't have to position themselves to be a team that is in the bottom 5 of the league, that is all I'm trying to say.
    Čarolija likes this.
  17. kingsboi

    kingsboi Well-Known Member

    So since they don't own their 2019 pick, and they will most likely have two top ten picks this season, then this draft and the one in 2018 will be the ones where we better hope the rebuild is coming along nicely. Otherwise, we hand the Sixers a lottery pick with absolutely nothing to show for. Then you would have to wait until the 2020 draft and that is thinking too far ahead for the time being.
    Čarolija and KingsFanGER like this.
  18. VF21

    VF21 #KingsFansForever Staff Member Contributor

    I don't think anyone wants to see the team with 30-35 wins ad nauseum. You say they have a lot of nice young players who haven't proven a thing yet. Wouldn't that be the same with draft picks? I'm just saying that at some point you have to take the boat out of drydock and see if it floats. I think our boat will float quite nicely. :)
    ockingsfan likes this.
  19. kingsboi

    kingsboi Well-Known Member

    the Kings fanbase is notorious for overvaluing their own draft picks, expecting or labeling them something they are not or don't have the skills to be that "said" player. With draft picks, you get excited about potential and the more skills that drafted player possesses, the better the chance he turns out to be that cornerstone the team is looking for.
    Čarolija likes this.
  20. VF21

    VF21 #KingsFansForever Staff Member Contributor

    You've totally lost me so I'll just say "okay"... ;)
    Warhawk likes this.
  21. kingsboi

    kingsboi Well-Known Member

    am I wrong though?
  22. Larry David

    Larry David Well-Known Member

    It kinda is your point above.

    I get there are folks prepared to tank for 5, 6, 7 years until the Kings are ready to emerge with a loaded team. That's not me. I think it's reasonable to tell those people you can't blow up the clown every year.

    Many teams over the past 30 years intentionally tank a year or two --- by my interpretation of a vague phrase that you chose to wordsmith ... not I -- as part of a long term rebuild. Over the past 10 years of futility, the Kings have never tanked as part of a long term rebuild. Never. They had the worst record in the league one year, but that was caused by lack of cash and the failure to construct a team that could win games / entertain enough to bring in more of said cash. No intentional tanking as part of a long term rebuild plan at the very least ... because there wasn't a long term rebuild plan.

    They did "tank" just a handful of game this season ... a season where they tried to maximize wins and gun for the playoffs for over 60% of the games. So, this wouldn't be the second summer of setting a team up to be in the bottom 5 for both development and strategic reasons.

    So when you say ... we can't blow up the clown every year as part of a long term rebuild ... or put the players in a position to loose by choosing to let players walk for nothing in free agency and not replace them (instead renting out cap space) during the 2017-18 season (ie we can't do it next year) ... how are you not in fact saying they can't do it once?

    Haven't done it yet.
    You think they shouldn't do it next year.
    Can't be the year after because they don't control their pick ... how is that not doing it once?
    Čarolija and One and Done like this.
  23. VF21

    VF21 #KingsFansForever Staff Member Contributor

    I don't think there is a right or wrong. There's a difference of opinion.
  24. VF21

    VF21 #KingsFansForever Staff Member Contributor

    I don't think they should tank next year for the simple reason I think we're already halfway through a rebuild. We have what appear to be promising young players (Buddy, PapaG, Malachi. WCS, Skal and two first round draftees), a possible Bogdan and a considerable amount of money to spend (not that I'm holding my breath on our ability to draw a quality FA). We have some veterans who are proven role players with the ability to mentor the youth and also have at least some trade value. Isn't that what a rebuilding team looks for? We got rid of DMC for youth and picks. I don't think anyone in the front office expected the team to pull together and win some of those games against upper tier teams. When they did, it took us a little further down (subject to the bounce of the ping pong balls) in the lottery but we're still in good shape.

    You think we should go full rebuild next year? What does that mean?

    What I foresee is a focus on developing the youth, with the intention of seeing how far they can take us, and looking to improve more through trades, free agency, etc.

    I think I'm repeating myself, but I continue to believe we can't just throw away yet another season by assuming the only way we can get better is with some unidentified draft pick in 2018. You think apparently we "haven't done it yet". I think we did, we just - in typical Kings fashion - didn't do it to the satisfaction of some of the fans. So do we start over again? It's not gonna happen IMHO for the simple reason it's not financially practical. You don't build a brand new arena and then submarine ticket sales by doing everything you can to prevent the team from actually winning. Season ticket sales are integral to the success of the Kings and right now the only reason people are shelling out hard earned bucks at inflated prices is because of the excitement of the young players and their determination to win. My thought is you have to ride that, and see where it goes. And I'm fully aware that is not the only viable option on the subject; it's just the one I believe in most fervently.

    Playoff appearances are desirable, but they aren't the only thing that sells tickets. We had sellout streaks for years because the product on the floor was competitive and enjoyable. You walk into the arena with the belief the team MIGHT win and you'll probably come back. You walk in with the belief the team isn't trying because they want a better draft pick and you might not return.
    Last edited: Apr 19, 2017
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  25. Suicide King

    Suicide King Well-Known Member

    I don't want us signing long term win now contracts. I do want us to sign a few vets that fit the philosophy Joerger and Vlade are instilling and are willing to teach the youngbloods for millions of dollars.

    I see no way that Joerger is going to pull back the reigns like our team is a racehorse to try and grab ping pong balls. Would a top 5 pick be nice next draft? Of course it would. I just don't see Joerger or the youth core being down with not going all out for just next season, then trying to start the "real season" a year later.

    If Vlade and Joerger somehow decide to go that route, so be it. I just don't see that happening.
  26. ockingsfan

    ockingsfan Well-Known Member

    Good points.

    I think the problem is that the tank people think that we can do a one year tank, get a top 5 pick and Wham-O we are fighting for the playoffs, by 2019 when we don't own our 1st round pick.

    Sorry, but it doesn't work that way.

    When you go in tank mode, you will be in tank mode, whether you want to or not, for a minimum of 2 to 4 years.

    There is a process where players and a team learn how to win and how to close out games. Also, the possibility of signing any quality free agents are further decreased when free agents know you have been tanking.

    With our current young core of buddy, skal, WCS, papa g, malichi, bogdan (hopefully) and 2 top 10 picks (hopefully), (that's 8 quality players in their 1st to 3rd years in the league) and a group of savvy vets, the kings can grow together as a team next year and hopefully make a push for the playoffs in 2019. :)
    whozit, jcassio and VF21 like this.
  27. VF21

    VF21 #KingsFansForever Staff Member Contributor

    And Vlade just took another good step in the right direction by hiring Luke Bornn. I am honestly more hopefully optimistic about the future of the Kings than I have been in a very long time.
  28. Mass

    Mass Well-Known Member Contributor

    I can't understand how we can make a push for the playoff with this group of players in 2019, but if we suck badly next year, we can't push for the playoff in 2019 with the same group of players plus a high draft pick in 2018...
  29. Hansel

    Hansel Active Member

    Because players don't tank entire seasons, especially when they're young and they're playing for their future contracts as well.
    I can understand tanking when you are rebuilding and you have players who are not part of your future, but if your roster is almost fully built by 20 y.o. players, what's the point?
    Next season we are going to play with 4 sophmores and 3 rookies (maybe four?). Let them play and see how good they are.
    If they're good, future is bright. If they're not, you get the high pick you want, with no tanking.
    Better start to create a group of guys who know each other, who help each other, and love to play together if possibile.
    Stability is important, check out the Spurs when they win lots of games leaving all their best players on the bench.
    Keep Joerger, keep Vlade, keep these kids and see how it goes. I'm just afraid as soon as something good is coming up, something bad happens, as always.
    Last edited: Apr 21, 2017
  30. jcassio

    jcassio Well-Known Member

    Again, I really don't see the value in tanking next year. We've got a great coaching staff and a good collection of young talent, with more to come in time for next season.
    We're likely to draft a PG, so that'll take a season or two before he is ready to take over the starting spot with big minutes. So for now, we need either a Collison or Lawson (or some other FA) to be our starter for 1-2 seasons before moving to a back-up role.
    We've got three good prospects at SG: Hield, Richardson and Bogdanovic (if he signs). I already feel that Buddy is going to own that position for years to come. But Malachi and Bogdan are both exciting prospects. Hopefully one of them can be a quality 2/3 player for us. But if Bogdan does sign with us, it's likely that one of them will be one too many 6'6 guards. Good problem to have in the big scheme of things.
    Temple has probably played more minutes in his career at SF than SG, so I would view him as our starting SF until someone else is ready to take over that role. I wouldn't be surprised to see Malachi move into that position. Like Temple, he's 6'6 with very long arms. But this is also a position where our 2nd draft pick (this year) can eventually step in. Doesn't mean we'll make the right pick or get the fit right, but it's an opportunity for the right person.
    Finally, we've got really promising talent to play the 4 and 5 positions (obviously Labissiere, Cauley-Stein and Papagiannis). Assuming that none of them plateau prematurely in terms of their skill development, this is a very exciting trio of big men. I'm hopeful that we can keep Koufos around as a valuable backup and mentor to the trio.
    Really don't know how Gay fits in to all this if he opts in. If he proves he's an ISO player at his core, then I'd prefer to use him as a 6th man. Or just showcase his talents until we can find a trade partner. But if he proves he has great value to our young team, maybe he'll be our starting SF and Temple becomes our defensive specialist.
    So where's the weak link in this chain that's going to make us terrible? Maybe 35 to 40 wins next year, depending on how things come together. Maybe more, maybe less. But a good transition year, with a playoff push the following year. Tanking next year just doesn't fit, unless maybe you have a very different assessment of our talent than I have.
    VF21 and origkds like this.

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