I'm sorry, Vlade

Discussion in 'Kings Rap' started by VF21, Mar 15, 2017.

  1. Big Cuz 15

    Big Cuz 15 Well-Known Member

    Gotta keep up the optimism but were not in the clear with the uncertainty with the pels pick. If its in the top 3, vlade needs to go. You cant ef up like that, mortgaging the future in the sixers trade and then getting foreclosure haul in the cousins trade. Thats epically bad. Love vlade as the player but his gm skills need a bunch of work.
    Čarolija likes this.
  2. joemama

    joemama Well-Known Member

    Vlade will have acquired SEVEN first round picks in two years but everyone seems to be complaining/upset about ONE first rounder in 2019.

    First round picks that are playing this year: Buddy, Malachi, Skal, Papa
    First round picks that will be playing next year: Fox, Bogdanovich, Isaac

    If Swanigan falls to the second round (not likely with spurs at end of 1st round) I would love to see that double-double machine in a kings uni.

    Vlade also acquired Luka Mitrovic and Arturas Gudaitis. Mitrovic did not impress me when I saw him play, but I wouldn't mind seeing what Gudaitis can do in the D-League (especially if we have a few more player slots next year).

    Vlade has done a great job in my eyes! I am excited watching the kings play!

    PGs: I'd have to say Collison over Lawson. Collison can shoot the 3, and he seems to passing it much better this year (13 assists last game). Smith is a good option, Galloway with a PO is more of a undersized two but he can shoot. I would love to try to get Teodosic to come over with Bogdanovich; DX currently has us with Jawun Evans with the 33rd pick. I would go with Monk with the 9th pick. He has speed, scoring ability, strength and a good shot. The more I watch Ball the less I am hyped. Ball can pass the rock but is very slow and I will be glad when he is off the board!

    SGs: Simple, bye Mclemore; bye Evans. Mclemore has one skill (shooting), he can't dribble, pass, dribble or think. Evans has lost a step. He used to be able to beat players 1-on-1 and with that gone its a no-dice. His 3-ball looks much improved, but he should be using his dribble penetration to set up others instead of himself.

    SFs: Aaflalo buyout 1.5 mi. Biggie is R. Gay with PO. Malachi was looking pretty good, Temple can play some stretch SF. Tatum is really good and will be gone by the time the kings select. Isaac is rail thin but crazy athletic. He goes after rebounds similarly to Skal. He is explosive off his feet and looks a little lost on D. Still a high ceiling if he can get his shot to come around. Isaac with the 7th pick.

    Pretty set at PF/C
    In no particular order:

    Monk(9), Collison, Galloway
    Bogdanovich, Hield, Temple
    Isaac (7), Gay (or FA), Malachi
    Skal, Tolliver, FA
    Stein, Koufos, Papa G

    Minors: J. Evans (35), Gudaitis, Mitrovic (or D-Leaguer, undrafted, purchased 2nd rounder, etc.)
    Glenn and John Galt like this.
  3. funkykingston

    funkykingston Well-Known Member

    I think that's bothers me more than anything. He should never have accepted deal with the pick protections in place
  4. Big Cuz 15

    Big Cuz 15 Well-Known Member

    Best post of the thread. ANY QUESTIONS????? :)
    Tetsujin likes this.
  5. Big Cuz 15

    Big Cuz 15 Well-Known Member

    Right. Wtf was he doing in the sixers trade? That was a lazy af trade. Im sure someone with cap wouldve taken stauskas with landry attached. Jt with a protected first if we really wanted him gone? Amateur hour to the extreme. Sign and trade for one of the guys he ended up signing? Jt/stauskas to dallas for rondo?
  6. 206Fan

    206Fan Well-Known Member

    Vlade gets a pass for the Cousins trade, because now, it becomes evident that it was the best thing available on the table.
    However, he doesn't get a pass for that horrible Stauskas trade. There's still no justifying that trade at all. It's horrible all-around. Kings had no problem waiving Barnes' 3mpy contract. Kings could've used stretch provision on Landry.. but again, I don't want to get into that horrific trade.
    He gets an OK for drafting WCS. Willie has been solid for the Kings, but he still passed up on more talented players for an older rookie.
    Suns trade has always been good.
    Still in the air about drafting Papagiannis.
    Richardson was a good pick.
    Labissiere was a very good pick.
    Vlade brought into players with extremely questionable characters..then after he trades Cousins, he talks about character mattering..oh ok.
    Vlade doesn't get a pass for changing his approach 3 times within the span of 2 years. Goes all-in with Rondo, Belinelli, and Koufos. Then drafts an older WCS. The next year, he goes semi-rebuild. Drafts all young players, while bringing in no real scoring help for Cousins. It looks like we're about to make a playoff push, then he decides to rebuild and trade Cousins. However, Vlade doesn't commit into fully rebuilding. Still had Collison and Lawson on the roster despite them being FAs.

    If Vlade could undo that dumbass Philly trade, he'd look like a really good GM right now. However, that Philly trade is probably the most horrible trade in NBA history. It's so bad that there aren't words to describe it. So in my mind, Vlade the drafter has been solid. Vlade the GM..has been horrible.
    Tetsujin and Čarolija like this.
  7. John Galt

    John Galt Well-Known Member

    What bothers me more than anything is why so many people - people I respect and like - assume that this or that other option was on the table. I really truly don't get it.

    So if the Pels said "top 3 protected take it or leave it" then Vlade should have walked? ok I can live with that take. But "Vlade should have gotten the deal with no top 3 protection" does not feel like fair criticism. Nobody knows if that was possible.
    VF21, Glenn, whozit and 2 others like this.
  8. funkykingston

    funkykingston Well-Known Member

    Normally I'd agree with you. It's hard to know what goes on behind the scenes. But in this case Vlade came out and said that the Pelicans originally offered Hield and first rounders in 2017 and 2019. Then after Cousins' representation was informed, they torpedoed things by telling the Pelicans he might not re-sign with them and New Orleans changed the offer to a single first rounder. All this info came directly from Vlade.

    Now perhaps you're right that New Orleans was now so skittish that they would have walked away and Divac was now in a position where he had to move Cousins since his agents knew and was stuck between a rock and a hard place. But I don't think it's unreasonable to say, "okay, we'll do the deal with one 1st rounder instead of 2 but you have to meet us halfway and drop the top 3 protection on the pick." After all, New Orleans has Cousins under contract for next season regardless. If they don't think they can (or want) to keep him, they can still trade him. He's still a chip for them regardless.
  9. John Galt

    John Galt Well-Known Member

    Also, Vlade actually ruptured Rudy's achilles after promising there would be no freak injuries. He also beat up some people in a NY night club after telling the press and the NY Mayor that he would not beat up any people in bar fights. Then he flipped off and cursed fans after telling the press he wouldn't do that anymore. He was forced to miss games as a penalty for too many techs faster than any GM in NBA history after he promised he would work on that. And he STILL won't release his tax returns. All Vlade's fault... all of it.

    I did applaud the Landry trade and still do. Even in 20-20 hindsight I have no qualms about that move. Landry JT and Stauskas all literally made me want to puke.

    The fault I find with Vlade is that he didn't suspend Cuz when Karl asked him to in the first place (perhaps we were already on a doomed track with Karl before that), and that he didn't fire Karl at the break last year (but that worked out because I love Joerger to death). Interesting to wonder what would have happened if we traded Cuz at Karl's behest when he first got here. We'd have lost Bricklayer sooner, but we'd perhaps have a better haul that Buddy Heild - I heard the Lakers were offering the moon back then.
  10. John Galt

    John Galt Well-Known Member

    I guess I want to believe he tried that and was rebuffed.

    It's not like the deal was a no-brainer for the Pels. I don't visit their message boards but I bet most of their fans would take a mulligan on that trade right now if they could. So I don't know that Vlade had all the leverage we assume he had. Would be an interesting poll to run on their boards and ours: would you undo the Cuz trade if you could?

    One other thing - I don't gamble but I used to. Vlade is making like 90%er bets here with pick swaps and lotto protections. Not coin flips, but odds in the 90-95% range that they won't hurt. So I haven't been critical of him for that but I think it's ok to criticize. Sort of seems like it's a Vlade gimmick to say "you can spin the roulette wheel and if it comes up 00 green then I'll give you a pick swap or move the pick to a future year"
    whozit likes this.
  11. 206Fan

    206Fan Well-Known Member

    Lol I didn't blame Vlade for any of those things. Vlade traded our future to go all in, then he pulled out. He decided to start off FA by adding vets, but no one good enough to push this team to the playoffs. Then, he went out and used a lotto pick on a Cousins' replacement. Then used the following 2 picks on young players..opposite of what he did with the Willie pick. Half-way into the season, Ham tells us that the Kings and Cousins are verbally agreeing to an extension.. a month later, we end up trading Cousins. Instead of fully rebuilding, we decided not to.

    Wow, how do you even applaud the Stauskas trade? Serious question. Are you letting your hatred of those players affect your judgement?

    I'm really not exaggerating when I say it's THE worst NBA trade of all time. It seriously is. It's so dumb and laughably stupid. It's indescribable, and we're really lucky that Philly has had horrible luck with injuries. Philly could've been chasing 8th seed and using their pickswap, but instead, it's still really close in the bottom 10.

    At least with the Nets, they were able to make the playoffs for a few years. The Kings have nothing to show for that Stauskas trade. We gave up a rookie+2016 pick swap+2017 pick swap+ 2019 unprotected 1st round pick for..........cap space.
  12. John Galt

    John Galt Well-Known Member

    letting hatred of those players affect my judgement: certainly.
    philly was and remains way behind us. swaps never happened which was the powerful odds on likelihood all along.
    the 2019 first should have been a late teens playoff pick that wouldn't matter much. was wrong on that. can't win em all.

    Philly sold cap room for draft picks. Kings may do the same in the next year or two. You pays your money and you takes your chances.. the Rondo/Cuz/Gay Kings didn't gel. They might have - I enjoyed watching that season - but it didn't work out. Oh well.

    Yeah at the time I liked the trade because I thought we were encumbered with bad old players on bad contracts... tragically bad, tragically old. So a radical risky move was ok with me.
  13. King Baller

    King Baller Well-Known Member

  14. KingsFanSince85

    KingsFanSince85 Well-Known Member

    I believe you may be mistaken, at least regarding some fans. I don't pretend to know what options were or weren't on the table. But I do know this. #21 rushed to make the trade. Thus he didn't maximize the potential of what a Cousins trade might have brought in. He limited his options.

    Now I've clearly been on record in stating that I didn't want Boogie traded under any circumstance. But all that understood, my biggest problem with the trade, now that they've made it, was the lack of patience and due diligence. Despite reasons some have given, Boogie did not have to be moved at the trade deadline. They could have waiting until the offseason.

    If you're selling a car and buyers know you're in a time crunch to make a deal, you're gonna get low balled -- especially when you limit the amount of buyers. But if you play the poker game correctly and let it be known that you aren't in a rush and will wait it out to make the right deal, you are much more likely to get more in return. Waiting it out doesn't guarantee you'll get more, but it does tilt the percentages in your favor.

    Some have suggested that #21 rushed the deal so that Vivek couldn't change his mind. That may or may not be true. As I said before, if it is true then we fans have much bigger problems because that means the organization is still being run like a 3 ring circus.

    Sure, the Kings might have made the playoffs with Boogie and lost their own pick. But for a franchise and fan base that hasn't tasted postseason basketball in nearly a dozen years, would that have been the worst thing? And sure, perhaps the deal they got with New Orleans wouldn't have been on the table had they waited it out. I mean, there's really no reason to believe it wouldn't have been but anything is possible. But that also doesn't mean circumstances don't change for others wherein you get an even better deal. And if this trade was rushed because they so very badly wanted Buddy Hield, they probably could have done more to ensure they got him during the draft last June. Imagine Buddy playing with Cousins? Seems like a scheme fit to me.

    Points been made. For me it was never about what deals were currently on the table or not. It was the rushed desperation in which they went about it (limiting their options) AND the distrust they've caused with players and agents due to the way it was handled. Those are the things that bother me.
  15. John Galt

    John Galt Well-Known Member

    thoughtful post. I really appreciate the people on here who make up the community and I have been trying not to get too argumentative although I often fail.

    there is an alternate scenario. If you have a declining asset, you can make a mistake if you hang on hoping for better times. Example you are holding GM stock and it is headed to bankruptcy. It was worth $70/share yesterday, it is worth $60 today... and you can't swallow hard and accept that you didn't sell yesterday and it is too late. So you hang on. Tomorrow it is worth $50, the next day $30, the next day ... eventually zero - worthless.

    Now I'm not saying whether DMC was a declining asset who was worth less by the day... but it's possible. It is a non-zero chance that the return on DMC would be less, not more, going forward. For sure a non-zero chance. I'd bet he is worth less right now than he was the day of the all star game.

    I think there are multiple reasonable views. Now you can save this post and rub my face in it if NOP flip DeMarcus for a profit (i.e. trade him for 3 first rounders next year). But I don't think that is odds on. More likely the Lakers and Wizards bide their time and one of them snaps him in FA... and NOP come away with nothing but a hangover, watching us enjoy Heild and their 2017 or 2018 first rounder.
  16. jpsls

    jpsls Active Member

    The 5th pick wouldn't be bad, the difference between 3 and 5 can be quite large in terms of getting a franchise player vs. a fringe all-star. The swap picks I am okay with because Philly was going to be bad for the next few years at the time of the trade. Kings were supposed to be mediocre. What really infuriates me is why Vlade only put a top 10 protection on the pick in 2017. He should have bargained for more than just 1 year of protection.
  17. Capt. Factorial

    Capt. Factorial Cantry Member Staff Member Contributor

    Are you talking about the 2018 pick here?
  18. VF21

    VF21 #KingsFansForever Staff Member Contributor

    More than anything, our scouting has to be stellar no matter which picks we end up with. We cannot afford to botch this draft without dire consequences in the minds of a lot of the fan base.
  19. whozit

    whozit Well-Known Member

    The top ten protection on the 2017 pick was from a long, long, long time ago like when the Maloofs were still an item.
  20. funkykingston

    funkykingston Well-Known Member

    It was an awful trade and there's not really any way to defend it. But so far it has cost the Kings a 2019 pick. Depending on where that pick lands it could prove to be a disaster but so far it hasn't actually cost anything but Stauskas. And had the Kings not traded Cousins the pick swap likely wouldn't even be in play this year courtesy of another terrible trade - the Casspi/Hickson deal.

    But there are plenty of worse trades.

    Billy Owens for Mitch Richmond and even Richmond for Webber as far as the Kings go were worse deals.

    The Clippers trading an unprotected pick (that ended up being Kyrie) for Baron Davis was worse.

    So was the Bucks haul for Kareem.

    Joe Barry Carroll for McHale and Parish?

    A bad trade? Sure. Worst of all time? Not close. Maybe it becomes a top 10 worst trade if the Kings land the #1 pick in 2019 and have to hand it over, but right now? It hasn't even hurt the team yet.

    Hell, the Nets trade for Garnett, Pierce and Jason Terry was so, so much worse. THREE first round picks AND a pick swap, as well as a handful of players (Gerald Wallace and I think Humphries and Marshon Brooks?) for guys that Ainge knew were past their prime and no longer the core of a contending team.
  21. bajaden

    bajaden Well-Known Member

    No, it's not the worse NBA trade of all time. Trust me, there have been far worse trades. It's not even in the top ten. But, that doesn't take away from the fact that it was a bad deal overall. I understand why he did it, but I think if he had a cap guru on board at the time he probably wouldn't have done it quite the way he did.
  22. bajaden

    bajaden Well-Known Member

    The top ten protection on our 2017 pick goes back to Petrie and our trade with the Cav's. Has nothing to do with Vlade.
  23. jpsls

    jpsls Active Member

    Yea I should have clarified. I'm talking about the 2018 pick. Originally in the 76ers trade, Vlade intended for the Kings to convey their 2016 pick to the Bulls, so he sent the 76ers a 2018 top 10 protected pick, but failed to add any protections if the Kings did not convey their pick to the Bulls in 2016. I just think giving up an unprotected pick when you're a small market franchise with few quality players is careless.
  24. Big Cuz 15

    Big Cuz 15 Well-Known Member

    What if its a top 3 pick. Does it matter?
  25. jpsls

    jpsls Active Member

    I disagree. The Nets trade is much, much worse.

    The Nets will have acquired Garnett, Pierce and Terry (all members of the AARP club) for 2014 pick (#17), 2016 pick (#3) 2017 pick (top 4 at least), and 2018 pick (top 4 at least).

    The Nets when it is all said and done will have given up three top 4 picks and a #17 for what amounted to 2 year window for the playoffs. In only one of those years did they win more than half of their games.
    kingsfan1984 likes this.
  26. Bballkingsrock

    Bballkingsrock Active Member

    I just want to know...will Bricklayer be apologizing anytime soon? Has he completely given up? Will he ever forgive Vlade
    New Era likes this.
  27. Siranthony

    Siranthony Well-Known Member

    Are you joking?
  28. Siranthony

    Siranthony Well-Known Member

    Thanks Vlade you rock!
  29. Tetsujin

    Tetsujin The Game Thread Dude

    Hard to fault the Booker miss because twenty other teams also passed him up as well. The Turner miss might be chalked up to "Hey, we need a good defender next to Boogie. Willie was the best defensive big in college. Let's take Willie!" But if Vlade was intending to trade Boogie the whole time, that still makes little to no sense.
    New Era likes this.
  30. New Era

    New Era Well-Known Member

    I'm starting to think he was really only a DeMarcus Cousins fan and not a real Sacramento Kings fan. I can understand being upset with the trade, especially if you were a huge DMC guy, but to completely disappear as a fan I don't get (and there were a few high profile posters who have done that). Being a fan is just that --- being a fan. Even though we have gone through pretty much hell and back, except for those good years which were painful in their own special way, we've pretty much been poopoo on as fans from Day 1. But you know what? That's now going to stop me from being a fan. It's in my DNA. I can't just turn it off. It's like your kids, even though they can disappoint you at times you still love them and support them no matter what. And when the team gets good again, I can be proud of the fact that I had the character to stick with them. That's what true fans do.

    On top of all of that, it's hard to believe that any true fan can't be somewhat excited about the future of this team. Sure, we aren't winning as much but was it really that big of a deal winning less than 30 games each year anyway?

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