How Does Boogie Compare On D To Famously Defensive Centers?

You've seen the stats now, so where do you think Boogie ranks amongst the NBA's Top 20 Defensive Cs?


  • Total voters
    28
  • Poll closed .

Bricklayer

Don't Make Me Use The Bat
#1
aka The Who's A Big Badass Defender? Boogie's A Big Badass Defender! thread.

Alrighty ladies and gents. I decided it was time to do a thread on Boogie's defense, and rather than whip out a quick one, I decided to do this right. So here's what we've got:

20 contenders -- the Top 20 defensive anchors in the NBA
7 statistical measures -- Per 100 blocks, steals, d-rebs, rim protection, charges drawn, and 2 measures of defensive +/-

And watch the Boogie go now. I'm serious when I say spread the gospel. I know these things, in my spare time I slip them to media voices, but I'm one voice, and Boogie is in some real need of disciples. And the numbers say he's worth it.

A) Who's In the Comparison?
Marc Gasol (2013 DPOY)
Tyson Chandler (2012 DPOY)
Joakim Noah (2014 DPOY)
Dwight Howard (2009, 2010, 2011 DPOY)
Rudy Gobert
Al Horford
DeAndre Jordan
Tim Duncan
Roy Hibbert
Andre Drummond
Hassan Whiteside
Andrew Bogut
Robin Lopez
Marcin Gortat
DeMarcus Cousins
Omar Asik
Steven Adams
Gorgei Dieng
Jonas Valanciunas
Nerlens Noel

So in other words no fewer than the Top 20 of 30 starting centers in defense, leaving off only the messy platoon/non defensive centers in Orlando, Charlotte, New Jersey, New York, Boston, Milwaulkee, Cleveland, Denver, Phoenix and the Lakers. So we should have everybody who could remotely be called a defensive anchor covered. Nothing cherrypicked.

B) What Stats Are Going to Be Used In The Comparison?
Per Game stats of course are inaccurate because guys play different minutes. Per 36 are more accurate because now they equalize minutes. Per 100 possession stats are most accurate of all, because now they equalize for possessions, and so equalize centers playing for teams that play at different paces. So we'll use those when possible.

Defensive Rebounds/per 100 poss
Blocks / per 100 poss
Steals /per 100 poss
Charges drawn (available only in totals)
Opponents FG% At The Rim
DPRM (Defensive Real Plus Minus -- ESPN's big per minute defensive impact stat)
Defensive On/Off +/- / per 100 possessions

Stat sites used will include basketball-reference.com, 82games.com, NBA.com, and for charges drawn from a Mar. 6 article (hence a few weeks old) on: http://hoopsmanifesto.com/articles/nba-stats/nba-charges-drawn-total-201415.html . Where the stats come with a leaguewide rank, that will be included. Alright? Covers just about everything, so let's go:

C) The Numbers:

1) Defensive Rebounds /per 100 possessions
Whiteside 15.6 (#1)
Jordan 14.7 (#2)
Cousins 13.9 (#3) <------------
Drummond 13.6 (#4)
Asik 13.5 (#6)
Howard 12.8 (#7)
Gobert 12.6 (#8)
Bogut 12.5 (#9)
Chandler 12.2 (#12)
Duncan 12.2 (#13)
Valanciunas 11.7 (#21)
Gortat 11.2 (#26)
Noah 11.0 (#30)
Hibbert 10.1 (#38)
Gasol 10.0 (#40)
Adams 9.5 (#50)
Noel 9.3 (#54)
Horford 9.2 (#55)
Dieng 9.0 (#65)
Lopez 6.5 (#124)
*note leaguewide ranks here are among all 269 players who have played at least 979min this season (Whiteside has played 979, so that was my cutoff).

2) Blocks /per 100 possessions
Whiteside 5.6 (#1)
Gobert 4.8 (#3)
Bogut 3.4 (#7)
Duncan 3.4 (#8)
Hibbert 3.4 (#9)
Jordan 3.2 (#13)
Noel 3.1 (#15)
Drummond 3.0 (#16)
Dieng 2.9 (#17)
Lopez 2.7 (#24)
Cousins 2.6 (#26) <------------
Gasol 2.6 (#27)
Adams 2.4 (#33)
Valanciunas 2.4 (#34)
Gortat 2.3 (#35)
Horford 2.1 (#41)
Howard 2.1 (#42)
Chandler 2.0 (#44)
Noah 2.0 (#46)
Asik 1.5 (#58)
*note leaguewide ranks here are among all 269 players who have played at least 979min this season (Whiteside has played 979, so that was my cutoff).

3) Steals /per 100 possessions
Noel 2.9 (#8)
Cousins 2.3 (#32) <------------
Dieng 1.6 (#110)
Drummond 1.6 (#112)
Gobert 1.6 (#113)
Duncan 1.4 (#146)
Gasol 1.4 (#149)
Horford 1.4 (#152)
Jordan 1.4 (#154)
Bogut 1.3 (#167)
Whiteside 1.3 (#184)
Adams 1.1 (#208)
Noah 1.1 (#216)
Chandler 1.0 (#222)
Gortat 1.0 (#225)
Howard 1.0 (#225)
Asik 0.8 (#249)
Valanciunas 0.8 (#254)
Lopez 0.6 (#264)
Hibbert 0.4 (#268)
*note leaguewide ranks here are among all 269 players who have played at least 979min this season (Whiteside has played 979, so that was my cutoff).
**basically there are only 2 mainline centers for whom steals are a significant factor, Noel (who may move to PF next year) and Boogie. Like the next category, its almost a Boogie only specialty, a bonus nobody else gets.

4) Charges Drawn
Cousins 25 (#1) <------------

Noah 6 (#41t)
Gasol 6 (#41t)
Dieng 4 (#67t)
Chandler 4 (#67t)
Gortat 3 (#87t)
Hibbert 3 (#87t)
Drummond 2 (#126t)
Bogut 2 (#126t)
Noel 1 (#181t)
Gobert 1 (#181t)
Duncan 0 (#---)
Horford 0 (#---)
Jordan 0 (#---)
Whiteside 0 (#---)
Adams 0 (#---)
Howard 0 (#---)
Asik 0 (#---)
Valanciunas 0 (#---)
Lopez 0 (#---)
*stats are through March 6, from http://hoopsmanifesto.com/articles/nba-stats/nba-charges-drawn-total-201415.html
*this is a Boogie only special. He's the only major center who does this at all. By the end of the year he'll probably have given us 30 more possessions this way than any other center. Worth more than a block because of the guaranteed possession (although blocks intimidate). Throw that number on top of his blocks number and he could easily be #3 on a "stops" list too.

5) Opponent FG% At The Rim
Gobert 39.1%
Bogut 40.9%
Hibbert 42.9%
Noel 45.0%
Howard 45.5%
Valanciunas 46.2%
Duncan 46.2%
Lopez 47.1%
Cousins 47.4% <------------
Adams 47.9%
Whiteside 47.9%
Drummond 48.5%
Jordan 48.5%
Gortat 48.7%
Gasol 49.5%
Asik 50.0%
Horford 50.2%
Chandler 51.4%
Noah 51.8%
Dieng 55.8%
*note leaguewide ranks in this stat are not really relevant as a number of the top guys are guards who have just stopped a few guys on the break or whatnot. Defensive anchors have vastly larger responsibiliites and are best compared to each other.

6) DPRM (Defensive Real Plus Minus)
Bogut 5.91 (#1)
Cousins 4.52 (#6) <------------
Duncan 4.46 (#7)
Gobert 3.57 (#12)
Noel 3.45 (#15)
Chandler 3.18 (#19)
Noah 2.59 (#28)
Whiteside 2.45 (#30)
Hibbert 2.38 (#34)
Gortat 2.37 (#35)
Jordan 2.19 (#41)
Asik 1.88 (#55)
Gasol 1.80 (#58)
Lopez 1.76 (#60)
Adams 1.55 (#71)
Drummond 1.59 (#74)
Howard 1.31 (#84)
Horford 0.75 (#116)
Valanciunas 0.35 (#157)
Dieng 0.09 (#186)
*I don't even like ESPN's RPM type stats. The same stat, offensive version, will tell you that Deron Williams, Kelly Olynk and Tiago Splitter are all having more impact than Boogie on the offensive side of the ball. Nonetheless its my offering to the advanced stat fans.

7) Defensive On/Off +/- Per 100 Possesions
Cousins 104.5/116.3 = -11.8 <---------------

Gortat 100.9/110.1 = -9.2
Bogut 97.0/103.9 = -6.9
Gobert 106.8/113.1 = -6.3
Howard 101.4/106.7 = -5.3
Noel 104.3/108.9 = -4.6
Whiteside 106.2/110.1 = -3.9
Chandler 105.7/109.0 = -3.3
Asik 107.8/110.9 = -3.1
Noah 104.8/106.8 = -2.0
Lopez 101.7/103.4 = -1.7
Duncan 103.1/104.1 = -1.0
Dieng 112.7/112.4 = +0.2
Adams 105.1/104.5 = +0.5
Jordan 108.9/106.7 +2.2
Hibbert 106.8/104.3 = +2.5
Drummond 108.8/105.8 = +3.0
Horford 105.0/101.6 = +3.3
Valanciunas 110.4/106.7 = +3.7
Gasol 105.0/99.8 = +5.3
* entirely apart from the staggering impact, if you just take our Defensive Points/100 with Boogie on the floor, and compare it to all the other team's per 100's, we straight out have the 6th best defense of the entire group. You take him away and its dead last, by a mile.

Summary
For those who may have missed it, DeMarcus Cousins, OUR defensive anchor, ranks ahead of the last 6 NBA DPOYs in every single one of the above categories, except for Opp FG% at Rim, where Howard was slightly ahead. This is not merely an improving defender, or a pretty good one, this is an elite defensive center. All the numbers say it. So does the eye test. Its high time more people figured that out. Help them to do so.
 
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hrdboild

Hall of Famer
#2
All this really means to me is that Cousins is the best offensive C in the league and the best defensive C in the league and the coaches still didn't vote him to the All-Star game. He might make third team All-NBA. Maybe. That's not a lock. There is some serious disrespect going on. It also means we need to do whatever we can to get Nerlens Noel on our team. If not this year than next year or the year after that when he becomes a free agent. Cousins and Noel together means multiple championships.
 

VF21

Super Moderator Emeritus
SME
#3
I don't think Cousins will be overlooked much longer by anyone. The only thing holding him back, IMHO, was his reputation for being a problem. With TeamUSA and the All-Stars on his resume now, and the statistics he's putting up, only a fool would continue to point at past issues of temperment as though they mattered in any way, shape or form.

And as good as we think he is right now, it's the tip of the iceberg.
 

VF21

Super Moderator Emeritus
SME
#4
"I'm learning. We have great guys and we need to help them to reach their potential." - Vlade Divac

I can't help but believe he's talking about DMC when he talks about helping players reach their potential.
 
#5
The Kings have been pretty decent defensively with him on the floor and heart-shatteringly bad with him off it. Too me, that speaks volumes.
 
#6
Demarcus has 32 34 (after tonight) Charges Taken:
http://www.nbaminer.com/player-foul-details/

Add that to his Blocks total (even though a charge taken is WAY better than a Block, due to guaranteed change of possession + racking up a foul on the other player) and DMC is two blocks behind tied with Drummond at #4 in Centers.

The reality that drags Boogie down is - in close competitive hard-fought games, he has fouled out of a high % of them.

This is mostly due to Demarcus getting no respect from the refs (quite the opposite - the refs seriously still have it in for the guy and will not call fouls on his defenders), also due to the blatant mistakes refs are falling for flops this year (worst I've ever seen) calling on perceived contact and flopping reactions instead of by position and actual move, but it's also due to Demarcus being utterly stupid 2 times a night (on average, during tough games) and doing dumb, obvious reach fouls when he gets frustrated and letting the refs take him out of the game.

If he would just keep himself under control, not do those stupid fouls, he could stay on the floor in those critical minutes in the close games. Until he can regularly, I can't call him the best defensive center, regardless of what the stats say.
 
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Kingster

Hall of Famer
#7
He seems to be getting better and better at the defensive end. He always had good anticipation at the defensive end, and good quickness for a big man to get to the right spot, which allowed him to take charges. But as of late he is blocking the shot AND garnering the rebound of the blocked shot AND throwing long outlet passes for easy baskets. Only a few centers in history could do that on a regular basis. Time will tell how consistently he can do that.
 
#8
One way player bra

Imagine if he played with good defenders around him. Guys who can stay in front of their man more and are better at reading rotations, fighting through screens etc. He would get less fouls because he isn't having to help at the rim as much and his rebounding would go up because his defensive rebounding would be much better from not having to leave his man to help(lots of weakside rebounds given up tonight). It is very possible for Cuz to average 28-14-5-2-2 at some point in his career.
 
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#9
This sucks because Cousins needs to put in 100% in every aspect of his game to make up for his poor teammates.
Imagine if he didn't have to pick up the slack for his teammates.. I think his numbers would be higher all around.

I'd be ok if he didn't win it this year though. I think if I had to pick a winner outside of Cuz, I'd probably say Gobert. However, I will say this about Gobert. He leaves a lot to be desired on offense. His main skillsets are on defense, and it's where he does his work. If you had 1 specific task, you're just going to concentrate long and hard on it, opposed to someone like AD who has to bring it all on both sides of the floor. Gobert's like a defensive specialist teams call to mop up the floor. His main job is to contest shots and rebound. He doesn't have to worry about covering for his teammates getting beat on defense, or worry about scoring 20pts on the offensive floor. It's much easier to be a dominant defensive player when it's your primary focus.
 
#10
aka The Who's A Big Badass Defender? Boogie's A Big Badass Defender! thread.

Alrighty ladies and gents. I decided it was time to do a thread on Boogie's defense, and rather than whip out a quick one, I decided to do this right. So here's what we've got:

20 contenders -- the Top 20 defensive anchors in the NBA
7 statistical measures -- Per 100 blocks, steals, d-rebs, rim protection, charges drawn, and 2 measures of defensive +/-

And watch the Boogie go now. I'm serious when I say spread the gospel. I know these things, in my spare time I slip them to media voices, but I'm one voice, and Boogie is in some real need of disciples. And the numbers say he's worth it.

A) Who's In the Comparison?
Marc Gasol (2013 DPOY)
Tyson Chandler (2012 DPOY)
Joakim Noah (2014 DPOY)
Dwight Howard (2009, 2010, 2011 DPOY)
Rudy Gobert
Al Horford
DeAndre Jordan
Tim Duncan
Roy Hibbert
Andre Drummond
Hassan Whiteside
Andrew Bogut
Robin Lopez
Marcin Gortat
DeMarcus Cousins
Omar Asik
Steven Adams
Gorgei Dieng
Jonas Valanciunas
Nerlens Noel

So in other words no fewer than the Top 20 of 30 starting centers in defense, leaving off only the messy platoon/non defensive centers in Orlando, Charlotte, New Jersey, New York, Boston, Milwaulkee, Cleveland, Denver, Phoenix and the Lakers. So we should have everybody who could remotely be called a defensive anchor covered. Nothing cherrypicked.

B) What Stats Are Going to Be Used In The Comparison?
Per Game stats of course are inaccurate because guys play different minutes. Per 36 are more accurate because now they equalize minutes. Per 100 possession stats are most accurate of all, because now they equalize for possessions, and so equalize centers playing for teams that play at different paces. So we'll use those when possible.

Defensive Rebounds/per 100 poss
Blocks / per 100 poss
Steals /per 100 poss
Charges drawn (available only in totals)
Opponents FG% At The Rim
DPRM (Defensive Real Plus Minus -- ESPN's big per minute defensive impact stat)
Defensive On/Off +/- / per 100 possessions

Stat sites used will include basketball-reference.com, 82games.com, NBA.com, and for charges drawn from a Mar. 6 article (hence a few weeks old) on: http://hoopsmanifesto.com/articles/nba-stats/nba-charges-drawn-total-201415.html . Where the stats come with a leaguewide rank, that will be included. Alright? Covers just about everything, so let's go:

C) The Numbers:

1) Defensive Rebounds /per 100 possessions
Whiteside 15.6 (#1)
Jordan 14.7 (#2)
Cousins 13.9 (#3) <------------
Drummond 13.6 (#4)
Asik 13.5 (#6)
Howard 12.8 (#7)
Gobert 12.6 (#8)
Bogut 12.5 (#9)
Chandler 12.2 (#12)
Duncan 12.2 (#13)
Valanciunas 11.7 (#21)
Gortat 11.2 (#26)
Noah 11.0 (#30)
Hibbert 10.1 (#38)
Gasol 10.0 (#40)
Adams 9.5 (#50)
Noel 9.3 (#54)
Horford 9.2 (#55)
Dieng 9.0 (#65)
Lopez 6.5 (#124)
*note leaguewide ranks here are among all 269 players who have played at least 979min this season (Whiteside has played 979, so that was my cutoff).

2) Blocks /per 100 possessions
Whiteside 5.6 (#1)
Gobert 4.8 (#3)
Bogut 3.4 (#7)
Duncan 3.4 (#8)
Hibbert 3.4 (#9)
Jordan 3.2 (#13)
Noel 3.1 (#15)
Drummond 3.0 (#16)
Dieng 2.9 (#17)
Lopez 2.7 (#24)
Cousins 2.6 (#26) <------------
Gasol 2.6 (#27)
Adams 2.4 (#33)
Valanciunas 2.4 (#34)
Gortat 2.3 (#35)
Horford 2.1 (#41)
Howard 2.1 (#42)
Chandler 2.0 (#44)
Noah 2.0 (#46)
Asik 1.5 (#58)
*note leaguewide ranks here are among all 269 players who have played at least 979min this season (Whiteside has played 979, so that was my cutoff).

3) Steals /per 100 possessions
Noel 2.9 (#8)
Cousins 2.3 (#32) <------------
Dieng 1.6 (#110)
Drummond 1.6 (#112)
Gobert 1.6 (#113)
Duncan 1.4 (#146)
Gasol 1.4 (#149)
Horford 1.4 (#152)
Jordan 1.4 (#154)
Bogut 1.3 (#167)
Whiteside 1.3 (#184)
Adams 1.1 (#208)
Noah 1.1 (#216)
Chandler 1.0 (#222)
Gortat 1.0 (#225)
Howard 1.0 (#225)
Asik 0.8 (#249)
Valanciunas 0.8 (#254)
Lopez 0.6 (#264)
Hibbert 0.4 (#268)
*note leaguewide ranks here are among all 269 players who have played at least 979min this season (Whiteside has played 979, so that was my cutoff).
**basically there are only 2 mainline centers for whom steals are a significant factor, Noel (who may move to PF next year) and Boogie. Like the next category, its almost a Boogie only specialty, a bonus nobody else gets.

4) Charges Drawn
Cousins 25 (#1) <------------

Noah 6 (#41t)
Gasol 6 (#41t)
Dieng 4 (#67t)
Chandler 4 (#67t)
Gortat 3 (#87t)
Hibbert 3 (#87t)
Drummond 2 (#126t)
Bogut 2 (#126t)
Noel 1 (#181t)
Gobert 1 (#181t)
Duncan 0 (#---)
Horford 0 (#---)
Jordan 0 (#---)
Whiteside 0 (#---)
Adams 0 (#---)
Howard 0 (#---)
Asik 0 (#---)
Valanciunas 0 (#---)
Lopez 0 (#---)
*stats are through March 6, from http://hoopsmanifesto.com/articles/nba-stats/nba-charges-drawn-total-201415.html
*this is a Boogie only special. He's the only major center who does this at all. By the end of the year he'll probably have given us 30 more possessions this way than any other center. Worth more than a block because of the guaranteed possession (although blocks intimidate). Throw that number on top of his blocks number and he could easily be #3 on a "stops" list too.

5) Opponent FG% At The Rim
Gobert 39.1%
Bogut 40.9%
Hibbert 42.9%
Noel 45.0%
Howard 45.5%
Valanciunas 46.2%
Duncan 46.2%
Lopez 47.1%
Cousins 47.4% <------------
Adams 47.9%
Whiteside 47.9%
Drummond 48.5%
Jordan 48.5%
Gortat 48.7%
Gasol 49.5%
Asik 50.0%
Horford 50.2%
Chandler 51.4%
Noah 51.8%
Dieng 55.8%
*note leaguewide ranks in this stat are not really relevant as a number of the top guys are guards who have just stopped a few guys on the break or whatnot. Defensive anchors have vastly larger responsibiliites and are best compared to each other.

6) DPRM (Defensive Real Plus Minus)
Bogut 5.91 (#1)
Cousins 4.52 (#6) <------------
Duncan 4.46 (#7)
Gobert 3.57 (#12)
Noel 3.45 (#15)
Chandler 3.18 (#19)
Noah 2.59 (#28)
Whiteside 2.45 (#30)
Hibbert 2.38 (#34)
Gortat 2.37 (#35)
Jordan 2.19 (#41)
Asik 1.88 (#55)
Gasol 1.80 (#58)
Lopez 1.76 (#60)
Adams 1.55 (#71)
Drummond 1.59 (#74)
Howard 1.31 (#84)
Horford 0.75 (#116)
Valanciunas 0.35 (#157)
Dieng 0.09 (#186)
*I don't even like ESPN's RPM type stats. The same stat, offensive version, will tell you that Deron Williams, Kelly Olynk and Tiago Splitter are all having more impact than Boogie on the offensive side of the ball. Nonetheless its my offering to the advanced stat fans.

7) Defensive On/Off +/- Per 100 Possesions
Cousins 104.5/116.3 = -11.8 <---------------

Gortat 100.9/110.1 = -9.2
Bogut 97.0/103.9 = -6.9
Gobert 106.8/113.1 = -6.3
Howard 101.4/106.7 = -5.3
Noel 104.3/108.9 = -4.6
Whiteside 106.2/110.1 = -3.9
Chandler 105.7/109.0 = -3.3
Asik 107.8/110.9 = -3.1
Noah 104.8/106.8 = -2.0
Lopez 101.7/103.4 = -1.7
Duncan 103.1/104.1 = -1.0
Dieng 112.7/112.4 = +0.2
Adams 105.1/104.5 = +0.5
Jordan 108.9/106.7 +2.2
Hibbert 106.8/104.3 = +2.5
Drummond 108.8/105.8 = +3.0
Horford 105.0/101.6 = +3.3
Valanciunas 110.4/106.7 = +3.7
Gasol 105.0/99.8 = +5.3
* entirely apart from the staggering impact, if you just take our Defensive Points/100 with Boogie on the floor, and compare it to all the other team's per 100's, we straight out have the 6th best defense of the entire group. You take him away and its dead last, by a mile.

Summary
For those who may have missed it, DeMarcus Cousins, OUR defensive anchor, ranks ahead of the last 6 NBA DPOYs in every single one of the above categories, except for Opp FG% at Rim, where Howard was slightly ahead. This is not merely an improving defender, or a pretty good one, this is an elite defensive center. All the numbers say it. So does the eye test. Its high time more people figured that out. Help them to do so.
A few notes about the stats given:

1) Defensive Rebounds /per 100 possessions (Cousins is #3):
It's not the most reliable tool to determine how good a rebounder someone is. looking at the Contested REB Percenteage stat for example you can see that only 40.7% of Cousins rebounds were contested (gathered where an opponent is within 3.5 feet), for example a guy like Drummond (came 4th in Brick's list) have 48.6% of his total rebounds contested- which means Cousins may get more rebounds but contribute less to his team's rebounding.
for example a known rebound stealer like JJ Hickson have only 35.7% of his rebounds contested, and Reggie Evans has only 35.1% of his rebounds contested.
Still Cousins is definitely elite on the rebounding end, just not as good as your list suggests.

2) Blocks /per 100 possessions- an highly overrated category, Rim protection is much better represented by number five on the list- Opponent FG% At The Rim.

3) Steals /per 100 possessions- steals are the equivalent of blocks just for guards, but although a lot of steals doesn't necessarily make you a good defender (Pablo Prigioni is amogst league leaders in this stat) it is a great skill Cousins have.

4) Defensive On/Off +/- Per 100 Possesions- it should be notice that the amazing impact he has there is also a by product of how crappy is replacement is. if you look instead at DBPM (Defensive Box Plus/Minus) that compares him to a league average player you would find that Bogut is first at 5.6, Gobert (5.0), Noel (4.7), Duncan (4.6) and Noah (3.5) are all in front of him (and so is Draymond green) and Boogie at a very good 3.4- tied with Marc Gasol and Kawhi Leonard.

All in all, Cousins is a very good defender, but not the best defensive center. he still has room to grow. he is dead last in the league both at Distance Traveled Per 48 min and at Average Speed of his movements. and his good Rim Protection numbers touches only the times when he is actually there to contest the shoot which he sometimes don't.
Cousins is an amazing talent. we souldn't just say things like "he is the best offensive center and defensive center" when we know it's not true.
 

VF21

Super Moderator Emeritus
SME
#11
All in all, Cousins is a very good defender, but not the best defensive center. he still has room to grow. he is dead last in the league both at Distance Traveled Per 48 min and at Average Speed of his movements. and his good Rim Protection numbers touches only the times when he is actually there to contest the shoot which he sometimes don't.
Cousins is an amazing talent. we souldn't just say things like "he is the best offensive center and defensive center" when we know it's not true.
If you take everything into consideration, WHO is better than Cousins at this point in time? And please be sure and include how you came to that conclusion.
 
#12
If you take everything into consideration, WHO is better than Cousins at this point in time? And please be sure and include how you came to that conclusion.
IMO Bogut is clearly better than Cousins on the defensive end:

1) Defensive Rebounding- per 100 possessions Cousins is better at 13.9 against Bogut's 12.5, but considering that Bogut's take more contested rebounds out of his total- 43.6% vs 40.7%, Cousins is still better than him at this category but it's not a huge difference.

2) Rim protection- this is where Bogut dominates with his Opponent FG% At The Rim being 40.8% against Cousins 47.1%.
it's also importent to remember that this stat consider only the shots you were there to contest and per 48 min- Cousins had defended 12.25 attempts at the rim and Bogut defended 14.92 attempts.

3) Overall opponent precentages- Cousins DFG% (The field goal precentage of the opponent when the player defended his shot) is 44.3% (league average is 47.4%).
Bogut's DFG% is a much better 40.5%. Bogut actually defends better shots from all of the areas except from shots taken greater than 15 ft.
Again in this category like in the last one Bogut's DFGA (Defended field goal attempts) per 48 min is 21.98 against Cousins's 19.56 which says that Bogut defends more shots than Cousins.

4) PER against- Opponent Counterpart 48-Minute Production, checked by PER showed that centers that played against Cousins have a PER of 20.1, while those who played against Bogut have a PER of just 16.5. In other words- Centers that play against Cousins have a bigger statistic contribution.

5) Advanced Stats- Bogut leads the league with a huge margin in DRPM (Defensive Real Plus Minus) with 5.91 and although Cousins is 6th on that list with 4.52 the margin between him and Bogut is equal to the one between Cousins and Zaza Pachulia at the 20th place.
Bogut also leads the league in DBPM (Defensive Box Plus/Minus) that check the player's contribution against a league average replacement with 5.6, Cousins is 13th with 3.4 and again the margin between him and Bogut is the same as the margin between Cousins and 89th place Nick Collison.

Overall I think Bogut is without a doubt better than Cousins on defense.
 

kingsboi

Hall of Famer
#13
To me it looks like that Cousins' force alone inside makes the Kings team a better defensive unit even if he statistically doesn't have a high number of blocks per game but that goes to show you that he is turning into a dominant two way player and if this franchise can't make some serious noise in the next couple of years in the playoffs with a player of this caliber, what a damn shame I say. All that put aside, he doesn't need to be DPOY material...we can see with the naked eye that when he wants to play defense he wreaks havoc out there, disrupting passing lanes, pressuring the ball at the top of the key and all over the wings, help side defense, etc. Plus on numerous occasions, posters here have brought up the defensive numbers when Boogie is not on the court, ouch.
 

Bricklayer

Don't Make Me Use The Bat
#14
A few notes about the stats given:

1) Defensive Rebounds /per 100 possessions (Cousins is #3):
It's not the most reliable tool to determine how good a rebounder someone is. looking at the Contested REB Percenteage stat for example you can see that only 40.7% of Cousins rebounds were contested (gathered where an opponent is within 3.5 feet), for example a guy like Drummond (came 4th in Brick's list) have 48.6% of his total rebounds contested- which means Cousins may get more rebounds but contribute less to his team's rebounding.
for example a known rebound stealer like JJ Hickson have only 35.7% of his rebounds contested, and Reggie Evans has only 35.1% of his rebounds contested.
Still Cousins is definitely elite on the rebounding end, just not as good as your list suggests.

2) Blocks /per 100 possessions- an highly overrated category, Rim protection is much better represented by number five on the list- Opponent FG% At The Rim.

3) Steals /per 100 possessions- steals are the equivalent of blocks just for guards, but although a lot of steals doesn't necessarily make you a good defender (Pablo Prigioni is amogst league leaders in this stat) it is a great skill Cousins have.

4) Defensive On/Off +/- Per 100 Possesions- it should be notice that the amazing impact he has there is also a by product of how crappy is replacement is. if you look instead at DBPM (Defensive Box Plus/Minus) that compares him to a league average player you would find that Bogut is first at 5.6, Gobert (5.0), Noel (4.7), Duncan (4.6) and Noah (3.5) are all in front of him (and so is Draymond green) and Boogie at a very good 3.4- tied with Marc Gasol and Kawhi Leonard.

All in all, Cousins is a very good defender, but not the best defensive center. he still has room to grow. he is dead last in the league both at Distance Traveled Per 48 min and at Average Speed of his movements. and his good Rim Protection numbers touches only the times when he is actually there to contest the shoot which he sometimes don't.
Cousins is an amazing talent. we souldn't just say things like "he is the best offensive center and defensive center" when we know it's not true.

Ironically this thread was created precisely because "we" don't know its true. We know a bunch of junk, some of it media created, old stats, old reps, this guy is on TV, this guy is on a good team etc. etc.

1a) did you use % of TOTAL contested rebounded for Drummond? Because if you did the very simple explanation would be all those offensive baords Drummond goes after. Most offensive boards are going to be contested, and for he and DeAndre, that is their thing.

1b) to the degree the percentage of contested DEFENSIVE rebounds is difference, the purpose of defensive rebounding is not to gather contested rebounds, its to end possessions. If there were a "percent of contested rebounds won" stat, that would be situationally helpful, but the mere act of grabbing contested ones is not inherently advantageous. If you've got the instincts, or the reputation, or the quickness to gobble rebounds out in space and nobody even bothers challenging you, those still count just as much. Nobody bothers contesting Reggie when he goes for a board, because they know its Reggie. Its his, might as well just get back up court. And Boogie has such great instincts, hands, and a rep, that he gets to the right space and snatches them and guys just give up. That's a good thing. I don't know but I could easily imagine Drummond being slower to react, but then recovering to grab the board on pure athleticism. Hence more contested rebounds, at least under one theory.

Thing is that is especially true for a center -- that's exactly who you want to be grabbing uncontested rebounds. Even if you assume that anybody on the team could grab them, the only person with any claim to being better to do it would be a PG, because a big PG like Tyreke can then just take that board and immediately head out leading the break. But of course with Boogie's own ballhandling and now even PGing, I'm not sure even our PGs have much of an edge there. Certainly not our wings, who would be better off streaking up court as long as they have the big board masher back behind them eating all the d-boards.

2) I of course included both block and rim% stats, and in both cases Boogie ranked in the middle to upper middle of all these anchors, certianly well within the range of anybody but the handful of superelite Whiteside/Gobert/Boguts.

3) Steals are actually a GREAT thing to see from a center so long as they are sitting there alongside blocks rather than replacing them. A great many of the greatest defensive centers of all time (Hakeem, Admiral, Big Ben) have had amazing hands and instincts and racked up big disruptive numbers across the board. Combined with the charges he draws, Cousins is flat earning us 2 extra possessions a game that a guy like Hibbert is not. And its just flat disruptive. Cousins is a menace in there.

4) DBOM is by its own creators admission not really built for defense and its polluted by factoring in team stuff and dumping it on Cuz's lap as a negative modifier. I don't play those "advanced" muck games, although I must congratulate their creators for creating a whole cottage industry justifying their continued employment.

P.S. having seen your next post, agreed on Bogut. I think he's probably the league's best. Given some time to establish himself I think Gobert may join him. I also think Bogut is at this point a 25min a night guy with few offensive responsibilities who's entire focus can be on one end of the floor. He's also surrounded by numerous strong defensive teammates, and a team which discovered and heavily features defense ever since Michael Malone taught it to them. In short I think he may be the most effective, but he's got every possible advantage in being so. For the league's most dominant and hardworking offensive center to even be in the conversation on the other end too is remarkable.
 
Last edited:
#15
Guys, it's the year 2015. There are way better ways to solve this argument than DPRM. stats.nba.com lists every single play a player has defended by type with their new cameras. I didn't include Whiteside since he hasn't played enough to make a determination on him yet.

Code:
ISO	Plays	
Player	      Team	Poss	Freq	PPP	PTS	FGM	FGA	FG%	eFG%	 FT%     TO%     SF%    And1%   Score% Percentile													
D.Cousins	SAC	46	5.8%	0.54	25	11	38	28.9	30.3	6.5%	13.0%	4.3%	2.2%	28.3%	94.1
Andrew Bogut	GSW	64	8.7%	0.66	42	17	52	32.7	35.6	4.7%	14.1%	3.1%	0.0%	31.3%	84.1
Andre Drummond	DET	58	6.4%	0.69	40	17	55	30.9	34.5	3.4%	1.7%	1.7%	0.0%	32.8%	80.3
Rudy Gobert	UTA	54	7.2%	0.76	41	17	43	39.5	39.5	9.3%	13.0%	7.4%	1.9%	38.9%	67.3
Joakim Noah	CHI	104	11.1%	0.82	85	37	93	39.8	41.9	6.7%	6.7%	6.7%	2.9%	38.5%	55.9
Tim Duncan	SAS	49	6.0%	0.88	43	18	44	40.9	44.3	4.1%	6.1%	4.1%	0.0%	40.8%	44.3
DeAndre Jordan	LAC	75	7.7%	0.93	70	27	64	42.2	44.5	12.0%	4.0%	12.0%	1.3%	45.3%	30.5
Nerlens Noel	PHI	79	9.0%	0.96	76	30	69	43.5	47.1	8.9%	6.3%	8.9%	2.5%	44.3%	25.1
Marc Gasol	MEM	57	6.1%	0.96	55	22	46	47.8	47.8	14.0%	7.0%	14.0%	1.8%	49.1%	24

Code:
Pick & Roll - Roll Man
Player	      Team	Poss	Freq	PPP	PTS	FGM	FGA	FG%	eFG%	 FT%     TO%     SF%    And1%   Score% Percentile	
Rudy Gobert	UTA	62	8.3%	0.53	33	16	55	29.1	29.1	3.2%	9.7%	3.2%	1.6%	27.4%	94.5
D. Cousins	SAC	59	7.4%	0.63	37	16	52	30.8	32.7	3.4%	8.5%	3.4%	0.0%	30.5%	89.3
Marc Gasol	MEM	85	9.1%	0.72	61	28	76	36.8	38.2	2.4%	9.4%	2.4%	1.2%	34.1%	79.1
Joakim Noah	CHI	91	9.7%	0.76	69	31	85	36.5	37.6	5.5%	2.2%	5.5%	1.1%	37.4%	71.9
Andre Drummond	DET	90	9.9%	0.86	77	37	87	42.5	42.5	2.2%	2.2%	2.2%	1.1%	42.2%	55.7
Tim Duncan	SAS	77	9.4%	0.86	66	31	69	44.9	45.7	2.6%	7.8%	2.6%	0.0%	42.9%	55
DeAndre Jordan	LAC	96	9.9%	0.91	87	32	79	40.5	43.7	10.4%	7.3%	10.4%	0.0%	43.8%	42.7
Nerlens Noel	PHI	70	8.0%	0.99	69	29	63	46	48.4	7.1%	4.3%	4.3%	1.4%	47.1%	28.9
Andrew Bogut	GSW	47	6.4%	1.02	48	19	41	46.3	46.3	10.6%	2.1%	10.6%	0.0%	51.1%	19.8

Code:
Post Ups
Player	      Team	Poss	Freq	PPP	PTS	FGM	FGA	FG%	eFG%	 FT%     TO%     SF%    And1%   Score% Percentile
Andrew Bogut	GSW	121	16.5%	0.7	85	32	91	35.2	35.2	12.4%	14.0%	10.7%	1.7%	36.4%	83.8
Marc Gasol	MEM	180	19.2%	0.72	130	53	143	37.1	37.1	11.7%	11.1%	11.1%	2.2%	38.3%	81.8
Rudy Gobert	UTA	156	20.8%	0.75	117	45	126	35.7	35.7	11.5%	9.6%	9.0%	1.9%	37.2%	75.3
D. Cousins	SAC	134	16.9%	0.8	107	47	104	45.2	45.2	10.4%	13.4%	9.0%	1.5%	41.0%	63.6
Joakim Noah	CHI	160	17.1%	0.82	132	54	125	43.2	43.2	11.9%	11.9%	10.0%	1.9%	42.5%	57.6
DeAndre Jordan	LAC	191	19.6%	0.83	159	68	165	41.2	41.2	8.4%	6.8%	8.4%	1.6%	41.9%	56.8
Andre Drummond	DET	210	23.2%	0.91	192	84	182	46.2	46.2	8.1%	6.2%	7.6%	1.0%	46.2%	38
Nerlens Noel	PHI	169	19.2%	0.92	156	62	127	48.8	48.8	17.2%	13.0%	16.6%	5.3%	46.7%	35.2
Tim Duncan	SAS	112	13.7%	0.96	107	48	96	50	50	8.9%	8.9%	6.3%	3.6%	48.2%	28.5

Code:
Spot up
Player	      Team	Poss	Freq	PPP	PTS	FGM	FGA	FG%	eFG%	 FT%     TO%     SF%    And1%   Score% Percentile
Tim Duncan	SAS	93	11.4%	0.88	82	34	84	40.5	45.2	5.4%	6.5%	5.4%	2.2%	39.8%	76.8
Andre Drummond	DET	125	13.8%	0.9	113	45	109	41.3	46.8	7.2%	6.4%	6.4%	0.8%	42.4%	70.7
DeAndre Jordan	LAC	189	19.4%	0.91	172	73	176	41.5	46	4.8%	2.6%	4.8%	0.5%	42.3%	69.2
Andrew Bogut	GSW	72	9.8%	0.92	66	28	66	42.4	46.2	4.2%	4.2%	4.2%	0.0%	43.1%	66.9
Marc Gasol	MEM	117	12.5%	0.92	108	40	108	37	44.9	6.0%	3.4%	6.0%	1.7%	38.5%	66
D. Cousins	SAC	104	13.1%	0.93	97	36	92	39.1	47.3	4.8%	6.7%	3.8%	0.0%	39.4%	61.3
Rudy Gobert	UTA	82	10.9%	0.99	81	32	73	43.8	50.7	4.9%	7.3%	4.9%	1.2%	42.7%	47.6
Joakim Noah	CHI	180	19.3%	1.01	182	72	167	43.1	51.2	5.0%	3.3%	4.4%	1.1%	43.9%	39.3
Nerlens Noel	PHI	147	16.7%	1.09	160	66	130	50.8	60	4.1%	8.8%	3.4%	1.4%	46.9%	22.4
Using my completely unscientific scoring system (since it's not weighted) if you assign a ranking to all four categories and add them up, Cousins comes up on top.

Code:
Player         ISO     P&R   Post Up Spot Up  Final
D. Cousins	1	2	4	6	13
Rudy Gobert	4	1	3	7	15
Andrew Bogut	2	9	1	4	16
Andre Drummond	3	5	7	2	17
Marc Gasol	9	3	2	5	19
Joakim Noah	5	4	5	8	22
Tim Duncan	6	6	9	1	22
DeAndre Jordan	7	7	6	3	23
Nerlens Noel	8	8	8	9	33
 

Bricklayer

Don't Make Me Use The Bat
#16
Guys, it's the year 2015. There are way better ways to solve this argument than DPRM. stats.nba.com lists every single play a player has defended by type with their new cameras. I didn't include Whiteside since he hasn't played enough to make a determination on him yet.

Code:
ISO Plays
Player       Team Poss Freq PPP PTS FGM FGA FG% eFG% FT%     TO%     SF%    And1%   Score% Percentile
D.Cousins SAC 46 5.8% 0.54 25 11 38 28.9 30.3 6.5% 13.0% 4.3% 2.2% 28.3% 94.1
Andrew Bogut GSW 64 8.7% 0.66 42 17 52 32.7 35.6 4.7% 14.1% 3.1% 0.0% 31.3% 84.1
Andre Drummond DET 58 6.4% 0.69 40 17 55 30.9 34.5 3.4% 1.7% 1.7% 0.0% 32.8% 80.3
Rudy Gobert UTA 54 7.2% 0.76 41 17 43 39.5 39.5 9.3% 13.0% 7.4% 1.9% 38.9% 67.3
Joakim Noah CHI 104 11.1% 0.82 85 37 93 39.8 41.9 6.7% 6.7% 6.7% 2.9% 38.5% 55.9
Tim Duncan SAS 49 6.0% 0.88 43 18 44 40.9 44.3 4.1% 6.1% 4.1% 0.0% 40.8% 44.3
DeAndre Jordan LAC 75 7.7% 0.93 70 27 64 42.2 44.5 12.0% 4.0% 12.0% 1.3% 45.3% 30.5
Nerlens Noel PHI 79 9.0% 0.96 76 30 69 43.5 47.1 8.9% 6.3% 8.9% 2.5% 44.3% 25.1
Marc Gasol MEM 57 6.1% 0.96 55 22 46 47.8 47.8 14.0% 7.0% 14.0% 1.8% 49.1% 24

Code:
Pick & Roll - Roll Man
Player       Team Poss Freq PPP PTS FGM FGA FG% eFG% FT%     TO%     SF%    And1%   Score% Percentile
Rudy Gobert UTA 62 8.3% 0.53 33 16 55 29.1 29.1 3.2% 9.7% 3.2% 1.6% 27.4% 94.5
D. Cousins SAC 59 7.4% 0.63 37 16 52 30.8 32.7 3.4% 8.5% 3.4% 0.0% 30.5% 89.3
Marc Gasol MEM 85 9.1% 0.72 61 28 76 36.8 38.2 2.4% 9.4% 2.4% 1.2% 34.1% 79.1
Joakim Noah CHI 91 9.7% 0.76 69 31 85 36.5 37.6 5.5% 2.2% 5.5% 1.1% 37.4% 71.9
Andre Drummond DET 90 9.9% 0.86 77 37 87 42.5 42.5 2.2% 2.2% 2.2% 1.1% 42.2% 55.7
Tim Duncan SAS 77 9.4% 0.86 66 31 69 44.9 45.7 2.6% 7.8% 2.6% 0.0% 42.9% 55
DeAndre Jordan LAC 96 9.9% 0.91 87 32 79 40.5 43.7 10.4% 7.3% 10.4% 0.0% 43.8% 42.7
Nerlens Noel PHI 70 8.0% 0.99 69 29 63 46 48.4 7.1% 4.3% 4.3% 1.4% 47.1% 28.9
Andrew Bogut GSW 47 6.4% 1.02 48 19 41 46.3 46.3 10.6% 2.1% 10.6% 0.0% 51.1% 19.8

Code:
Post Ups
Player       Team Poss Freq PPP PTS FGM FGA FG% eFG% FT%     TO%     SF%    And1%   Score% Percentile
Andrew Bogut GSW 121 16.5% 0.7 85 32 91 35.2 35.2 12.4% 14.0% 10.7% 1.7% 36.4% 83.8
Marc Gasol MEM 180 19.2% 0.72 130 53 143 37.1 37.1 11.7% 11.1% 11.1% 2.2% 38.3% 81.8
Rudy Gobert UTA 156 20.8% 0.75 117 45 126 35.7 35.7 11.5% 9.6% 9.0% 1.9% 37.2% 75.3
D. Cousins SAC 134 16.9% 0.8 107 47 104 45.2 45.2 10.4% 13.4% 9.0% 1.5% 41.0% 63.6
Joakim Noah CHI 160 17.1% 0.82 132 54 125 43.2 43.2 11.9% 11.9% 10.0% 1.9% 42.5% 57.6
DeAndre Jordan LAC 191 19.6% 0.83 159 68 165 41.2 41.2 8.4% 6.8% 8.4% 1.6% 41.9% 56.8
Andre Drummond DET 210 23.2% 0.91 192 84 182 46.2 46.2 8.1% 6.2% 7.6% 1.0% 46.2% 38
Nerlens Noel PHI 169 19.2% 0.92 156 62 127 48.8 48.8 17.2% 13.0% 16.6% 5.3% 46.7% 35.2
Tim Duncan SAS 112 13.7% 0.96 107 48 96 50 50 8.9% 8.9% 6.3% 3.6% 48.2% 28.5

Code:
Spot up
Player       Team Poss Freq PPP PTS FGM FGA FG% eFG% FT%     TO%     SF%    And1%   Score% Percentile
Tim Duncan SAS 93 11.4% 0.88 82 34 84 40.5 45.2 5.4% 6.5% 5.4% 2.2% 39.8% 76.8
Andre Drummond DET 125 13.8% 0.9 113 45 109 41.3 46.8 7.2% 6.4% 6.4% 0.8% 42.4% 70.7
DeAndre Jordan LAC 189 19.4% 0.91 172 73 176 41.5 46 4.8% 2.6% 4.8% 0.5% 42.3% 69.2
Andrew Bogut GSW 72 9.8% 0.92 66 28 66 42.4 46.2 4.2% 4.2% 4.2% 0.0% 43.1% 66.9
Marc Gasol MEM 117 12.5% 0.92 108 40 108 37 44.9 6.0% 3.4% 6.0% 1.7% 38.5% 66
D. Cousins SAC 104 13.1% 0.93 97 36 92 39.1 47.3 4.8% 6.7% 3.8% 0.0% 39.4% 61.3
Rudy Gobert UTA 82 10.9% 0.99 81 32 73 43.8 50.7 4.9% 7.3% 4.9% 1.2% 42.7% 47.6
Joakim Noah CHI 180 19.3% 1.01 182 72 167 43.1 51.2 5.0% 3.3% 4.4% 1.1% 43.9% 39.3
Nerlens Noel PHI 147 16.7% 1.09 160 66 130 50.8 60 4.1% 8.8% 3.4% 1.4% 46.9% 22.4
Using my completely unscientific scoring system (since it's not weighted) if you assign a ranking to all four categories and add them up, Cousins comes up on top.

Code:
Player         ISO     P&R   Post Up Spot Up  Final
D. Cousins 1 2 4 6 13
Rudy Gobert 4 1 3 7 15
Andrew Bogut 2 9 1 4 16
Andre Drummond 3 5 7 2 17
Marc Gasol 9 3 2 5 19
Joakim Noah 5 4 5 8 22
Tim Duncan 6 6 9 1 22
DeAndre Jordan 7 7 6 3 23
Nerlens Noel 8 8 8 9 33

Well that's man defense rather than defensive anchoring, but still...amazing work '89.
 

Bricklayer

Don't Make Me Use The Bat
#19
Depends...on what a DBA is. :)

Seriously, thanks. I could actually follow that stuff.
DBA could be

Doctorate in Business Administration
Database Administrator
1930s Soviet Era Heavy Bomber
Double Barrel Accountant
Debonnaire Badass
Dung Beetle Annihilator
 
#22
Ironically this thread was created precisely because "we" don't know its true. We know a bunch of junk, some of it media created, old stats, old reps, this guy is on TV, this guy is on a good team etc. etc.

1a) did you use % of TOTAL contested rebounded for Drummond? Because if you did the very simple explanation would be all those offensive baords Drummond goes after. Most offensive boards are going to be contested, and for he and DeAndre, that is their thing.

1b) to the degree the percentage of contested DEFENSIVE rebounds is difference, the purpose of defensive rebounding is not to gather contested rebounds, its to end possessions. If there were a "percent of contested rebounds won" stat, that would be situationally helpful, but the mere act of grabbing contested ones is not inherently advantageous. If you've got the instincts, or the reputation, or the quickness to gobble rebounds out in space and nobody even bothers challenging you, those still count just as much. Nobody bothers contesting Reggie when he goes for a board, because they know its Reggie. Its his, might as well just get back up court. And Boogie has such great instincts, hands, and a rep, that he gets to the right space and snatches them and guys just give up. That's a good thing. I don't know but I could easily imagine Drummond being slower to react, but then recovering to grab the board on pure athleticism. Hence more contested rebounds, at least under one theory.

Thing is that is especially true for a center -- that's exactly who you want to be grabbing uncontested rebounds. Even if you assume that anybody on the team could grab them, the only person with any claim to being better to do it would be a PG, because a big PG like Tyreke can then just take that board and immediately head out leading the break. But of course with Boogie's own ballhandling and now even PGing, I'm not sure even our PGs have much of an edge there. Certainly not our wings, who would be better off streaking up court as long as they have the big board masher back behind them eating all the d-boards.

2) I of course included both block and rim% stats, and in both cases Boogie ranked in the middle to upper middle of all these anchors, certianly well within the range of anybody but the handful of superelite Whiteside/Gobert/Boguts.

3) Steals are actually a GREAT thing to see from a center so long as they are sitting there alongside blocks rather than replacing them. A great many of the greatest defensive centers of all time (Hakeem, Admiral, Big Ben) have had amazing hands and instincts and racked up big disruptive numbers across the board. Combined with the charges he draws, Cousins is flat earning us 2 extra possessions a game that a guy like Hibbert is not. And its just flat disruptive. Cousins is a menace in there.

4) DBOM is by its own creators admission not really built for defense and its polluted by factoring in team stuff and dumping it on Cuz's lap as a negative modifier. I don't play those "advanced" muck games, although I must congratulate their creators for creating a whole cottage industry justifying their continued employment.

P.S. having seen your next post, agreed on Bogut. I think he's probably the league's best. Given some time to establish himself I think Gobert may join him. I also think Bogut is at this point a 25min a night guy with few offensive responsibilities who's entire focus can be on one end of the floor. He's also surrounded by numerous strong defensive teammates, and a team which discovered and heavily features defense ever since Michael Malone taught it to them. In short I think he may be the most effective, but he's got every possible advantage in being so. For the league's most dominant and hardworking offensive center to even be in the conversation on the other end too is remarkable.
1a) I didn't find a stat that talks exclusively about contested defensive rebounding so that a somewhat flawed category. It does hurt the comparison between him and DeAndre/Drummond, but it's hurt less when compared to guys with similar OR/TR Ratio like Bogut.

1b) I of course agree that there is a value to a non-contested rebound, my claim is that this value is lower (and in many cases considerably lower) than the value of a contested rebound. You gave Reggie as an example- Reggie is notorious for taking rebounds away from his teammates and so is another guy I mentioned in Hickson, both have a low percent of their rebounds contested- if they grab 10 rebounds and Boogie grabs 10 rebounds more likely that his rebounds matters more as a whole.

About the guy's giving up theory- I don't exactly buy it, because some of the guys that have more of their rebound contested should be just as threatening (Brook Lopez, RoLo, McGee and Whiteside are all examples).

To your last paragraph on that subject, I'm not saying it isn't a good thing that Cousins grab those rebounds, but if more of those rebounds are "low hanging fruit" than they have a lesser meaning to the team's total rebounding as a whole.

2) My mention that blocking stats aren't completely reliable wasn't very important to the Cousins discussion (since like you said he is in a similar place on both blocks and opponent FG% at rim), and more as a general remark made to make people push Whiteside (allow 48% at the rim, a worse mark than Cousins's 47.1%) from the elite team.

3) I agree with you on steals in terms of Centers (again the first sentence I said was a general remark similar to the one on blocks), having said that I think it's hard to measure the exact effect of steals to a center's defense but I agree it shows Cousins great hands and instincts.

4) DBOM just like DRPM aren't perfect but they does tell a story nonetheless, the stat you brought up in your original analysis was much more biased in my opinion because it didn't took into consideration that our center out of the bench is a pile of flaming trash.

DBOM that tries to do the same but replaces the guy with a league average player, is much more reliable in this case.
 
#23
That "Contested Rebound" stat doesn't match my eyeball test of Boogie's game.
I've been watching this aspect of his game for 5 years.

My bet is it is solely from this season.

I'd guess that Boogie's Contested RBD rate is significantly higher in previous seasons.

That's one of the things I have noted about Cousins his entire career, is that more of his rebounds seem to be contested than the average big guy (in my memory Chris Webber was the king of uncontested rebounds - I always thought a majority of his rebounds were easy, uncontested ones and his rebound numbers were inflated and overcelebrated because of it).

There are two main reasons why Cousins Contested rebound rate would be lower this season:
1) His sickness in December. Ever since he came back, he has simply not had as much quickness or lift as he used to when other guys are jumping for the rebound against him.
2) The offensive sets regularly put him way out on the 3-pt line and doesn't keep him under the basket to fight for Offensive rebounds nearly as much as they used to.
 
#24
Guys, it's the year 2015. There are way better ways to solve this argument than DPRM. stats.nba.com lists every single play a player has defended by type with their new cameras. I didn't include Whiteside since he hasn't played enough to make a determination on him yet.

Code:
ISO Plays
Player       Team Poss Freq PPP PTS FGM FGA FG% eFG% FT%     TO%     SF%    And1%   Score% Percentile
D.Cousins SAC 46 5.8% 0.54 25 11 38 28.9 30.3 6.5% 13.0% 4.3% 2.2% 28.3% 94.1
Andrew Bogut GSW 64 8.7% 0.66 42 17 52 32.7 35.6 4.7% 14.1% 3.1% 0.0% 31.3% 84.1
Andre Drummond DET 58 6.4% 0.69 40 17 55 30.9 34.5 3.4% 1.7% 1.7% 0.0% 32.8% 80.3
Rudy Gobert UTA 54 7.2% 0.76 41 17 43 39.5 39.5 9.3% 13.0% 7.4% 1.9% 38.9% 67.3
Joakim Noah CHI 104 11.1% 0.82 85 37 93 39.8 41.9 6.7% 6.7% 6.7% 2.9% 38.5% 55.9
Tim Duncan SAS 49 6.0% 0.88 43 18 44 40.9 44.3 4.1% 6.1% 4.1% 0.0% 40.8% 44.3
DeAndre Jordan LAC 75 7.7% 0.93 70 27 64 42.2 44.5 12.0% 4.0% 12.0% 1.3% 45.3% 30.5
Nerlens Noel PHI 79 9.0% 0.96 76 30 69 43.5 47.1 8.9% 6.3% 8.9% 2.5% 44.3% 25.1
Marc Gasol MEM 57 6.1% 0.96 55 22 46 47.8 47.8 14.0% 7.0% 14.0% 1.8% 49.1% 24

Code:
Pick & Roll - Roll Man
Player       Team Poss Freq PPP PTS FGM FGA FG% eFG% FT%     TO%     SF%    And1%   Score% Percentile
Rudy Gobert UTA 62 8.3% 0.53 33 16 55 29.1 29.1 3.2% 9.7% 3.2% 1.6% 27.4% 94.5
D. Cousins SAC 59 7.4% 0.63 37 16 52 30.8 32.7 3.4% 8.5% 3.4% 0.0% 30.5% 89.3
Marc Gasol MEM 85 9.1% 0.72 61 28 76 36.8 38.2 2.4% 9.4% 2.4% 1.2% 34.1% 79.1
Joakim Noah CHI 91 9.7% 0.76 69 31 85 36.5 37.6 5.5% 2.2% 5.5% 1.1% 37.4% 71.9
Andre Drummond DET 90 9.9% 0.86 77 37 87 42.5 42.5 2.2% 2.2% 2.2% 1.1% 42.2% 55.7
Tim Duncan SAS 77 9.4% 0.86 66 31 69 44.9 45.7 2.6% 7.8% 2.6% 0.0% 42.9% 55
DeAndre Jordan LAC 96 9.9% 0.91 87 32 79 40.5 43.7 10.4% 7.3% 10.4% 0.0% 43.8% 42.7
Nerlens Noel PHI 70 8.0% 0.99 69 29 63 46 48.4 7.1% 4.3% 4.3% 1.4% 47.1% 28.9
Andrew Bogut GSW 47 6.4% 1.02 48 19 41 46.3 46.3 10.6% 2.1% 10.6% 0.0% 51.1% 19.8

Code:
Post Ups
Player       Team Poss Freq PPP PTS FGM FGA FG% eFG% FT%     TO%     SF%    And1%   Score% Percentile
Andrew Bogut GSW 121 16.5% 0.7 85 32 91 35.2 35.2 12.4% 14.0% 10.7% 1.7% 36.4% 83.8
Marc Gasol MEM 180 19.2% 0.72 130 53 143 37.1 37.1 11.7% 11.1% 11.1% 2.2% 38.3% 81.8
Rudy Gobert UTA 156 20.8% 0.75 117 45 126 35.7 35.7 11.5% 9.6% 9.0% 1.9% 37.2% 75.3
D. Cousins SAC 134 16.9% 0.8 107 47 104 45.2 45.2 10.4% 13.4% 9.0% 1.5% 41.0% 63.6
Joakim Noah CHI 160 17.1% 0.82 132 54 125 43.2 43.2 11.9% 11.9% 10.0% 1.9% 42.5% 57.6
DeAndre Jordan LAC 191 19.6% 0.83 159 68 165 41.2 41.2 8.4% 6.8% 8.4% 1.6% 41.9% 56.8
Andre Drummond DET 210 23.2% 0.91 192 84 182 46.2 46.2 8.1% 6.2% 7.6% 1.0% 46.2% 38
Nerlens Noel PHI 169 19.2% 0.92 156 62 127 48.8 48.8 17.2% 13.0% 16.6% 5.3% 46.7% 35.2
Tim Duncan SAS 112 13.7% 0.96 107 48 96 50 50 8.9% 8.9% 6.3% 3.6% 48.2% 28.5

Code:
Spot up
Player       Team Poss Freq PPP PTS FGM FGA FG% eFG% FT%     TO%     SF%    And1%   Score% Percentile
Tim Duncan SAS 93 11.4% 0.88 82 34 84 40.5 45.2 5.4% 6.5% 5.4% 2.2% 39.8% 76.8
Andre Drummond DET 125 13.8% 0.9 113 45 109 41.3 46.8 7.2% 6.4% 6.4% 0.8% 42.4% 70.7
DeAndre Jordan LAC 189 19.4% 0.91 172 73 176 41.5 46 4.8% 2.6% 4.8% 0.5% 42.3% 69.2
Andrew Bogut GSW 72 9.8% 0.92 66 28 66 42.4 46.2 4.2% 4.2% 4.2% 0.0% 43.1% 66.9
Marc Gasol MEM 117 12.5% 0.92 108 40 108 37 44.9 6.0% 3.4% 6.0% 1.7% 38.5% 66
D. Cousins SAC 104 13.1% 0.93 97 36 92 39.1 47.3 4.8% 6.7% 3.8% 0.0% 39.4% 61.3
Rudy Gobert UTA 82 10.9% 0.99 81 32 73 43.8 50.7 4.9% 7.3% 4.9% 1.2% 42.7% 47.6
Joakim Noah CHI 180 19.3% 1.01 182 72 167 43.1 51.2 5.0% 3.3% 4.4% 1.1% 43.9% 39.3
Nerlens Noel PHI 147 16.7% 1.09 160 66 130 50.8 60 4.1% 8.8% 3.4% 1.4% 46.9% 22.4
Using my completely unscientific scoring system (since it's not weighted) if you assign a ranking to all four categories and add them up, Cousins comes up on top.

Code:
Player         ISO     P&R   Post Up Spot Up  Final
D. Cousins 1 2 4 6 13
Rudy Gobert 4 1 3 7 15
Andrew Bogut 2 9 1 4 16
Andre Drummond 3 5 7 2 17
Marc Gasol 9 3 2 5 19
Joakim Noah 5 4 5 8 22
Tim Duncan 6 6 9 1 22
DeAndre Jordan 7 7 6 3 23
Nerlens Noel 8 8 8 9 33
Like Brick have said this is more about man defense. And in my opinion it's not even a great way to test man defense.

If you want to test how well he defended his opponent, just check the opponent's production and especially the PER against category.

If you test his opponent's PER Cousins is not nearly as good at some of those numbers suggest:

Per 48 min his player produce- 15 FGA, 0.585 eFG%, 5.3 FTA, 56% iFG, 12.8 Reb, 2 Ast, 9.1 PF (Cousins is amazing at that), 2.6 TO and 21 PTS to achieve a total PER of 20.1. 20.1 isn't a good mark.

This category of opponent production is also where guys like Marc Gasol thrives, Gasol annihilate his opponent keeping him at 11.8 PER.

Gobert is also great (but not nearly as good as Gasol) keeping his rival center at 14.4 PER.

Dwight Howard keeps his opponent at 16.1, Chandler at 16.2, Whiteside at 16.3, Bogut at 16.5, Hibbert at 17 and Gortat at 17.1 are all good man defenders.

DeAndre is ok (better than Cousins) with 18.9, and Drummond isn't good with a similar mark to Boogie at 20.4 (doesn't force to, let's his guy rebound more often than most).

You can see that this category is more about man defense looking at some specific players:

Pekovic is not known for his defense and while he is a terrible Rim protector (Opp FGP at Rim of 56.5%) he is a pretty solid man defender at 17.3 PER of his opponent, on the other hand a skinny guy like Noel who is a very good Rim protector allows his man to excel with a 23 PER when guarding centers sending them to the line 6.5 times and letting them grab 17.4 RE.B per 48 min. When Noel is guarding PF he does good job keeping them at 15.2 PER- which goes well with the "eye test" claim that he is more suited to play the PF position.
 
#25
There is one additional advantage DMC has when compared to every other C (whatever your measuring stick is) - he is the ONLY guy not needing to defend DeMarcus Friggin' Cousins.

But whatever you may believe - the facts seem to point that DMC is at least an above average defender, and if you add his offensive capabilities there should be little doubt he is one of the best overall players to lace them up in the NBA today.
 
#26
To me it looks like that Cousins' force alone inside makes the Kings team a better defensive unit even if he statistically doesn't have a high number of blocks per game but that goes to show you that he is turning into a dominant two way player and if this franchise can't make some serious noise in the next couple of years in the playoffs with a player of this caliber, what a damn shame I say. All that put aside, he doesn't need to be DPOY material...we can see with the naked eye that when he wants to play defense he wreaks havoc out there, disrupting passing lanes, pressuring the ball at the top of the key and all over the wings, help side defense, etc. Plus on numerous occasions, posters here have brought up the defensive numbers when Boogie is not on the court, ouch.
Just a thought: if we draft WCS, the guards would be more willing to terrorize the perimeter without worrying too much about drives. With WCS and Boogie and to an extent JT, we're having decent rim protection
 

Tetsujin

The Game Thread Dude
#28
Just a thought: if we draft WCS, the guards would be more willing to terrorize the perimeter without worrying too much about drives. With WCS and Boogie and to an extent JT, we're having decent rim protection
The thing about having a rotation of DMC/WCS/JT is that all three are capable of playing both big men positions (though certainly Boogie is probably better suited for the 5 and WCS in his current form for the 4) and defending them well while all also bringing something unique to the table defensively (Boogie being the best player in the universe, WCS being capable of defending almost any position on the floor and natural shot disruption instincts, and JT being one of the better post defenders in the league).

But I digress, let's get back to discussing how awesome Demarcus is...
 

Bricklayer

Don't Make Me Use The Bat
#29
Like Brick have said this is more about man defense. And in my opinion it's not even a great way to test man defense.

If you want to test how well he defended his opponent, just check the opponent's production and especially the PER against category.

If you test his opponent's PER Cousins is not nearly as good at some of those numbers suggest:

Per 48 min his player produce- 15 FGA, 0.585 eFG%, 5.3 FTA, 56% iFG, 12.8 Reb, 2 Ast, 9.1 PF (Cousins is amazing at that), 2.6 TO and 21 PTS to achieve a total PER of 20.1. 20.1 isn't a good mark.

This category of opponent production is also where guys like Marc Gasol thrives, Gasol annihilate his opponent keeping him at 11.8 PER.

Gobert is also great (but not nearly as good as Gasol) keeping his rival center at 14.4 PER.

Dwight Howard keeps his opponent at 16.1, Chandler at 16.2, Whiteside at 16.3, Bogut at 16.5, Hibbert at 17 and Gortat at 17.1 are all good man defenders.

DeAndre is ok (better than Cousins) with 18.9, and Drummond isn't good with a similar mark to Boogie at 20.4 (doesn't force to, let's his guy rebound more often than most).

You can see that this category is more about man defense looking at some specific players:

Pekovic is not known for his defense and while he is a terrible Rim protector (Opp FGP at Rim of 56.5%) he is a pretty solid man defender at 17.3 PER of his opponent, on the other hand a skinny guy like Noel who is a very good Rim protector allows his man to excel with a 23 PER when guarding centers sending them to the line 6.5 times and letting them grab 17.4 RE.B per 48 min. When Noel is guarding PF he does good job keeping them at 15.2 PER- which goes well with the "eye test" claim that he is more suited to play the PF position.
A PER test is VERY much about team, not individual. Defensive schemes can make a difference, defensive philosophies. Teammates.

Watch what happens behind Gasol when he steps up to stop penetration.

Then watch what happens when Boogie does the same.

See how many fast break chances an opponent gets vs. Memphis as opposed to the Kings.