[Grades] Grades v. Thunder 1/15/2017

Discussion in 'Kings Rap' started by Bricklayer, Jan 15, 2017.


Down three, Thunder ball, 26.5 seconds to go...how do you coach it?

Poll closed Jan 17, 2017.
  1. Set up the D, try to make them miss, call timeout and draw up a tying three at the buzzer

    22 vote(s)
  2. Play the foul game

    9 vote(s)
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  1. Bricklayer

    Bricklayer Don't Make Me Use The Bat Staff Member Contributor


    When you have it down to a 2pt game in the final 30 seconds it can't be a fake hustle charge, because at that point anything can happen. But this act has grown tiresome, and of concern was just how evident that was written all over the faces of Cousins and Joerger.


    Link to Boxscore

    Gay ( B ) -- stretches of very aggressive play, including strong boards and attempts at big finishes. Kept us afloat through a long stretch of the first half. But also out of sorts, kept forcing garbage looking for the refs to bail him out, and missing shots to trigger Thunder breaks.

    Tolliver ( B- ) -- a hard man to grade because much of what he does might best be termed "subtle". Was set up to have a bad night as the Adams/Kanter frontline was just too big and chased him as Kanter overwhelmed him around the rim. But Adams' injury brought back 1 big man sets, and Tolliver once again made timely plays to help our second half run.

    Cousins ( B ) -- big statistical line, some brilliant stuff of course, but also too many of the TOs were his as he has had to take over at PG with Collison now retired from passing, and we're beginning to see those forced pas TOs again. Moving slower now, and defensively saved fouls but did not contest the Thunder bigs enough. Tried to manufacture an unlikely 4th quarter comeback that fell just short.

    Temple ( C+ ) -- had an effect on Westbrook early, but got into quick foul trouble, and never the same afterward. Eventually Westbrook took off, and Garrett actually ended up sitting for this version of the doomed comeback.

    Collison ( B- ) -- played a pathetic first half, but came out in the second and immediately established himself as a scorer, and did not let up in a 19pt half. Was about all he was doing, as DC is now a primary defensive sieve and quit passing at some point during the offseason. But in a 72pt half for us, he was weapon #2 and the PG with the ball as we tried to steal this at the end.

    Barnes ( C ) -- these grades are getting tough, because Matt is being productive -- in this case helping on the glass, and being basically the only bencher who found a way to score in the first half. And yet he just makes so many dumb errors, leaving corner 3pt shooters, fouling guys for +1s, this time adding a T as we were fighting back in the 4th. Duh.

    Koufos ( D+ ) -- saved himself with his late stint when he got a couple of spoonfed down the lane dunks, but really a poor game for Kosta on a night when he was needed to give us a twin tower set to match Admas/Kanter. instead he got in major foul trouble (and got a T arguing it), dropped passes, and missed finishes.

    Lawson ( C ) -- I actually missed the play where he turned his ankle. But in any case, up until that point had started slowly, but was once again beginning to make offensive plays for teammates as the bench inched in closer. Unfortunately his size was being used against him defensively at the same time.

    Afflalo ( C- ) -- played a bizarrely hyper-aggressive game, coming in and racing around clearly looking to force offense as quickly as possible. Somebody said something, he just got a burr, I don't know. It did result in some aggressive scores. It also helped explain his 4 TOs trying to do too much too fast.

    Cauley Stein ( INC ) -- with Koufos both playing fugly and in foul trouble, Joerger gave Willie a brief shot at replacing him. Unfortunately that meant Kanter at that point, and Willie can no longer handle that, if he ever could.
    Last edited: Jan 15, 2017
  2. The_Jamal

    The_Jamal Well-Known Member

    Games like this really want me to hit the reset button and explore some Cousins trades. Not that I want to trade Cousins at all, but the dude is really just on an island by himself every game. And there's nothing we can point towards that's "Oh, once we get this guy some more run, or when these guys gel" type scenarios that see us getting much better anytime soon. Tolliver and Temple are showing they can be good role guys next to him, but no one else getting run is really showing so. Casspi was brilliant in minutes next to Cousins last year, but remains in the doghouse. And even then, those are the guys you want to be the 7th-9th most talented guys on the team.

    Rudy is just an outdated player. The game has evolved from the ISO baller who doesn't play defense, unless he's running the second unit.
    ppine, New Era and KingsFanGER like this.
  3. KingMilz

    KingMilz Guest

    Matt Barnes should never see another minute of basketball here the guy gets tech fouls at critical moments in the game which are deflating and basically a big F.U to the fans/teammates/organization, as much as I am for trading Cousins the guy is surrounded by un-athletic/low iq/low energy players (Temple/Casspi excluded) who don't inspire anyone what's worse is guys like Rudy/Barnes always make plays that complete take the wind out of the sails.

    Kantar/Adams/Sabonis just manhandled KK/Cousins/WCS/Tolliver in the paint which is really disappointing the Thunder just outworked us badly that game.
  4. KingsFanGER

    KingsFanGER Well-Known Member

    A team with a slow center like Cuz can't turn the ball over like we did against Russel Westbrook and company. Like the Spurs last Playoffs we just aren't athletic enough to keep up. Cuz with 4 guys, who will fly up and down the court? Well that might work. But with our squad we need to play smart and nearly flawless to have a chance. And of course we never play flawless.
    Kanter and Adams are very good players and will score. But we still can't let the Thunder beat us up on the boards like they did. Robertson and Kanter had a combined 12 offensive boards. That's just backbreaking.
  5. pshn80

    pshn80 Well-Known Member

    Was there. Lost the game early. Why, probably lots of reasons, none of which were in the last 3 minutes. Why, how about early turnovers, how about our beginning defense running out of fuel after six minutes and not returning until the second half. Don't trade any body, just keep working on improving. We are improving despite our record on this home stand.

    I like the play of Cousins, Koufos, Barnes, Tolliver, Gay, Afflalo, Temple, Lawson, and Collison. Each of those needs to do a little better (starting with Cuz) but they are OK. Keep laying, keep improving, it has and will take a while.
  6. Kingsfan23

    Kingsfan23 Well-Known Member

    The answer to the OP question is play defense and not foul for me

    But then I'm not a Joerger fan and question his decisions continuously now

    Cousins has to do better in imposing his will on games as a 200 million prospect. Not just stats, but momentum plays and fueling a competitive spirit within the team
  7. Kingster

    Kingster Well-Known Member

    The fast break disparity between the Kings and other teams is interesting. The turnovers have to be reduced to single digits to reduce the number of fast break opportunities against them, which appears unlikely given the guards that we have and the fact that Cousins tries to make passes off the dribble that he can't consistently make. Also, if you've watched these many games you see Cousins beat down the floor on a continual basis. It's almost like you don't see his absence in running down the floor because it happens so often. When was the last time you saw Cousins racing down the floor to stop a fast break? It's obvious the book on Cousins is that if you run on him you get 3 on 2 and 4 on 2 fast break opportunities. If Cousins doesn't just dominate on the offensive end so the opponent is taking it out of their own basket, thus preventing fast break opportunities, this team is always playing 4 on 5 when it comes to fast break defense.
  8. Siranthony

    Siranthony Well-Known Member

    Same story different season. On it goes. How many more????
  9. ockingsfan

    ockingsfan Well-Known Member

    I think it is time to trade Rudy for something of value (i.e. Cameron Payne), before we lose him for nothing in the off season. He is gone for sure at season's end.

    We can't keep bleeding talent and not get anything in return (i.e. Isaiah Thomas, Tyreke Evans).

    Rudy is scoring, but the team's effort seems to sag when he is on the floor.

    Maybe it is just me, but the team seems to play more scrappy, team basketball, when Gay was out with that hip injury.
  10. swisshh

    swisshh Well-Known Member

    I found it weird that all the talk after the game was about the team not complaining to refs and not the team giving up 122 points. You can stay quiet to the refs, but they won't be rewarding you with calls and they aren't going to defend for you.
  11. Lopes

    Lopes Guest

    Perhaps the more aggressive gets the calls.
  12. swisshh

    swisshh Well-Known Member

    Over the years, I've learned that's an after-the-fact explanation of things. Sometimes, you do see one team working harder and hustling more. (Like the last Miami game.) But most of the time there's no real difference. Also, it's such a strange unwritten rule to believe in.

    Certain things that people say about NBA refs to explain their.. inadequacies are ideas that even the NBA refs don't believe in. A long held saying is that at the end of a game, the ref swallows their whistle. Ronnie Nunn recently did a video with Basketball Breakdown where they brought this up and Nunn straight up denied. He called it a conspiracy that refs stop calling fouls on the final shots of a game.

    And then, of course, an obvious foul was not called a few days later on the final shot.

    So I have come to treat officials like any other job. No special rules or idioms. They just have a strong union that the league can't **** with.
    IfAt1st likes this.
  13. Lopes

    Lopes Guest

    The officials are graded on every call. It's getting even tougher on them. Sorry but the blame the refs is garbage. And constant complaining hurts the game
    New Era likes this.
  14. swisshh

    swisshh Well-Known Member

    You missed the point of what I was saying.
    VF21 likes this.
  15. Lopes

    Lopes Guest

    Not really you were saying you have to whine that get calls. I'm saying that isn't true. Ask Doug Christie on radio he said there is a right way to approach the official other than yelling at them
  16. swisshh

    swisshh Well-Known Member

    Okay, I'll go over the two points I made.

    The first was that keeping quiet with the officials doesn't actually solve the problem of giving up 122 points. It doesn't solve the problem of having terrible first halves. The officials can't hype you up before the game or defend the basket for you. Even if you're quiet, there's no reason to think the calls will suddenly improve. It is an odd dicussion to have after a game with obvious basketball issues on display.

    The second point is more complex and in response to what you said. You said, "Perhaps the more aggressive gets the calls." That didn't have to do with what I said, but it struck me as an odd belief. I explained how there are things fans and media believe about the reasoning of officials that even the officials themselves don't believe. My example was longtime NBA ref Ronnue Nunn denying that refs swallow the whistle at the end of games. He claims they call the game the same at the end as they do the entire rest of the game and that thinking they "swallow the whistle" is a fan conspiracy.

    So this sort of dissonance is worth looking at. I propose two possibilities. One is Nunn is for some reason wrong and all these little phrases and ideas we have about the refs are real. Play harder and you get whistles. At the end of the game, fouls aren't called. Superstars get extra free throw attempts. Rookies won't get any calls. So on and so on. Let's say that these are all true. Then shouldn't they be in the rulebook? If they are so true that everyone knows these things then shouldn't these unwritten rules become written rules? If this is how the game goes then it should be a part of the rulebook. No reason for so many unwritten rules in the game. Just make it official.

    But let's look at what Ronnie Nunn claimed, that the swallow the whistle rule doesn't exist. What do we have then? We have a fan, player and media response to fouls not being called at the end of games. We have a special rule that non-refs made up to explain the inadequacies of actual refs. We believe in these various unwritten rules when they don't really exist for the refs themselves. We just use them to explain screw-ups after the fact. We think the refs are good, so we have to make up rules to explain when they are bad.

    So, imo, this is no good. We treat refs not like people going to do a public job with public accounability, but in the same way we treat magical creatures like faeries, pixies and leprechauns. We make up various rules to explain why they don't work when we want them to work. If we jsut truly believe then tinkerbell gets her wings and your wish in the well will come true and Steve Javvey will reward your belief and hustle with an and-1 on the next trip down. This is silly. Treat them like real people with real jobs.
    VF21 and KingsFanGER like this.
  17. peacelate

    peacelate Well-Known Member

    I think complaining less to the officials allows you to get back on defense. The Kings are 26th in the league in fast break points allowed per game. I have no idea if that's a trend with Joeger coached teams, but it's an interesting stat.

    As per the referee issue, I think many fans judge referees unfairly. I've seen it a million times where a ref calls a foul late in the game the same way they would call a foul in the first quarter. What happens? The fans complain that the refs should swallow the whistle and let the players decide the game in crunch time. On the flip side, when a referee does swallow the whistle on a judgement foul, you still hear fans complain how referees should be consistent from the first quarter to the end of the game. Fans are inconsistent in how they want the game to be judged. The only thing consistent is that it's always the refs fault.
    Lopes likes this.
  18. KingsFanGER

    KingsFanGER Well-Known Member

    That's true. But can we expect Cousins to carry such a heavy load on offense while playing good enough transition defense? That combined with his ability to close out on shooters and to stay in front of guards and wings is the biggest questionmark, when talking about Cousins as the buildingblock for the future.
    At some point we have to admit, that he has weaknesses and those weaknesses are problematic and have no easy fix. "Just stop arguing with the officials" won't magically fix the transition defense of a 6'11, 270 lbs center, who is carrying the team on offense and is looking for contact on most plays. "More hustle" might mean more fatigue and therefore less efficiency.
    From my point of view Joerger has done the right thing in trying to limit mistakes and continuing to give Cousins a lot of looks from outside (less distance to cover to get back, less contact involved, less energy spend). But so far it hasn't been enough. It's not unreasonable to think, that transition defense and pick&pop defense will always be the weak spots for a team built around Cousins. That's where roster construction comes into play as a tool to limit the effect Cousins weaknesses have on the performance of the team.
  19. Lopes

    Lopes Guest

    More on Cousins defensive weaknesses.
  20. ESP47

    ESP47 Well-Known Member

    Cousins had a good game but he could have had a monster of a game if he didn't just stand on the outside jacking up 3's against the notoriously weak defensive center in Enes Kanter. He should have taken him to the woodshed inside to the tune of a 40+ point game.
  21. King Baller

    King Baller Well-Known Member

    Tetsujin and VF21 like this.
  22. Lopes

    Lopes Guest

    Yes and if ran again it's likely to be the same. Especially when we experience the same results. But if you have similar measures that show to the contrary I'll listen
    Oh but not +\- pls
  23. twslam07

    twslam07 Well-Known Member

    VF21 and dude12 like this.
  24. ppine

    ppine Well-Known Member

    The Kings play hard now. In a game like this it is obvious that they do not have the talent to run with NBA teams with winning records. Westbrook is up there with the all time greats of the game. He does everything well. He can almost hit his head on the rim. Absolutely spectacular.

    Cousins seems to struggle with teams that swarm him inside. He seems way too complacent out beyond the arc throwing up threes. On nights when he is missing them, he needs to stop shooting them. He must get his shots blocked more than any other player in the league. He has the inside and outside game, but needs to go back to the mid range game more. His talent is no secret, and opposing teams are coming up with schemes to slow him down. He is a good passer and needs to read double teams a little faster.

    The rest of the Kings are really role players and journeyman type players that have knocked around the League. They are well coached in my opinion by now. They probably never can get to .500 with the current roster. They have become legendary in their squandering of high draft picks. No marquis players want to come to Sacto. The great players need to be drafted.
  25. Lopes

    Lopes Guest

    His athleticism has improved that greatly in three years. Anddddd we r still having the same problem. But hey close your eyes if you like.
  26. twslam07

    twslam07 Well-Known Member

    DRPM = 4.71 (2nd among Cs; 1st among Cs who play 24+ mpg)
    DRAPM = ?

    DRPM = 3.25 (6th among Cs; 4th among Cs who play 24+ mpg)
    DRAPM = 2.01 (6th among Cs; 4th among Cs who play 24+ mpg)

    DRPM = 0.51 (54th among Cs; 20th among Cs who play 24+ mpg)
    DRAPM = ?

    Cousins hasn't been as effective this year on the defensive side of the ball because he has been played as a PF way more this year vs. last year (35% of his minutes at PF vs. 13% last year). He's much more effective at C and it plays to his defensive strengths, but even being played out of position on defense (thus limiting his impact on that side of the ball) his RPM is still top 10! If you just took his DRPM from last year and replaced that with what he had this year, he'd be top 2 in RPM! Cousins is not a good defender at PF thus why those stats are telling that story. Play him completely at C, and you'll see his defense get back to the level it has been at the last 2 seasons.
    Last edited: Jan 17, 2017
  27. Telemachus

    Telemachus Well-Known Member

    Almost every time Cousins went inside against the Thunder, they doubled or triple-teamed him. It is why he was able to find open teammates all game long. The problem was that they just missed too many wide open shots.
  28. KingMilz

    KingMilz Guest

    It could be way worse imo honestly the Kings might have dodged a massive bullet due to the fact the 76ers have had a lot of injuries this year and that Embid has to play on a minutes restriction they could legitimately have a record as good as ours or better if they had similar health to us.
  29. VF21

    VF21 #KingsFansForever Staff Member Contributor

    You might actually gain a bit of credibility if you even once admitted you'd made a mistake. This time it's just patently obvious your agenda is not going to be set aside by silly things like a two year old article. :rolleyes:
    Tetsujin and King Baller like this.
  30. Lopes

    Lopes Guest

    Again the same problem exists today that existed 2 years ago. He physically has short comings that aren't going away. He needs to and the team needs to find a way to live with it and win.
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