[Grades] Grades v. Heat 1/4/2017

Discussion in 'Kings Rap' started by Bricklayer, Jan 4, 2017.

  1. funkykingston

    funkykingston Well-Known Member

    What has surprised me with Joerger is his stubbornness with the starting five and his rotations.

    Jerry Sloan was really rigid about those things too and it worked for him (players developed chemistry and guys knew when they were being subbed out) but I didn't expect it from Joerger who has had to make do with makeshift lineups from his minor league days and last year with the Grizzlies. I guess I expected more flexibility and more decisions based on the opposing lineup and the flow of the game.

    Yet he starts Boogie and Koufos against undersized perimeter frontcourts that drag Cousins out of the paint and who KK can't punish inside on the other end. And Ben inexplicably still has a starting role while Malachi can't get a real look. Casspi was glued to the bench early and keeps ending up in the doghouse for some reason.

    Just stuff that makes no sense. I go back to that Raptors game in which briefly abandoned the KK/Boogie pairing and he started Collison and Lawson because they'd played well together to finish out the previous game. But why you'd have eiither the 5'11" Lawson or the 6'1" Collison guarding the 6'7" DeRozan (who was then the league's leading scorer) I have no idea.

    Ultimately the Kings won that won and limited DeRozan to 11 or 12 points but nearly all of his damage was done early against that mismatch before Joerger was forced to sub.

    I've been trying to give Joerger the benefit of the doubt but many of his decisions simply don't make any sense to me. This is a bad basketball team, sure but it feels like he's often handicapping it further.
    IfAt1st, kingjatt and alonshin like this.
  2. Kingsfan23

    Kingsfan23 Well-Known Member

    Why does it take so many weeks and bureaucracy to make lineup changes, like getting Ben out for Malachi?
    KingMilz likes this.
  3. bajaden

    bajaden Well-Known Member

    In fairness to Lawson when Johnson blocked him from behind, there was no one else for him to pass to, and you can't blame Lawson, its rare when someone actually catches up to him. I thoght Lawson played very well last night. I can't say the same thing for Collison.
    pshn80 likes this.
  4. bajaden

    bajaden Well-Known Member

    Well, if you watch other NBA games, they all shoot a lot of three's now. That's the current craze at the moment. Logically, it makes sense. If you were to shoot 33% from the three for the entire game, the other team would have to shoot 50% from the two to beat you. Those are good odds for the team shooting the three.
    New Era likes this.
  5. Entity

    Entity Well-Known Member

    our pg's get beat regularly leaving what ever big we got down low out to dry. just can't stay in front of them
    dude12 likes this.
  6. bajaden

    bajaden Well-Known Member

    Hmmm, I wouldn't say he sucks, but I don't think he should be starting. I also wouldn't say he can't shoot, but that he's an inconsistent shooter. He'll go four for five one night, and zero for five the next. Don't know why, but it might be his legs are getting old and can't recover as well from game to game.
  7. bajaden

    bajaden Well-Known Member

    By the way, I watched Dragic very closely last night, and his defense was pretty good. Collison had a lot of problems getting by Dragic, and Dragic didn't have much of a problem getting by Collison, which he did at will.
  8. KingsFanSince85

    KingsFanSince85 Well-Known Member

    That's not true. As soon as Lawson began sprinting down court, he had Temple following. It would have been a 2-on-1 had he made the pass to Temple where in turn Garrett could have passed right back (once Johnson turned his hips) or just finished himself.

    I see it so many times where a player decides to go aggressively to the rim while ignoring a teammate that they could easily pass to and get the defender to turn. Much of the time that player is a smallish guard that gets blocked by a larger defender. Whatever happened to taking advantage of the lone defender by passing it once he commits?
  9. Ugolino

    Ugolino Active Member

    I agree with many of the comments (particularly Ben's play and rotations). However it seems like we're ignoring the lack of D. If our D keeps sucking (especially on 3's) it won't matter who we start.
  10. Larry89

    Larry89 Disgruntled Kings Fan

    Barnes shouldn't be getting regular minutes, he should be a spark/enforcer off the bench that changes tempo of a game. His offensive game and turnovers are too disruptive to be playing 25+minutes a night
  11. Blob

    Blob Well-Known Member

    I may be in minority but I can't get too worked up over last night. The pieces aren't in place to be a playoff team whether we win or lose an "easy" game like that. If a trade or two goes down to add 1-2 pieces so we can compete against the Top 4 seeds in the West, then we can talk. Then there's something to get excited about. But this team was always holding by a thread, with schedule wins (back-to-back, injuries) to create an illusion of capability.

    Put it this way: If Matt Barnes were waived tomorrow, there's not 1 of 29 other teams that would sign him. This is my opinion but I am convinced of it. What kind of team can you be when you are playing a guy 25 MPG when no one in the league would have? This says a lot about our talent, struggles of guys like Omri, Willie, and Ben, unable to squeeze a washed up player for minutes. If you know this going in, losing to a depleted Heat team isn't completely unexpected.

    And if you know MVP performance from Boogie is statistical and physical improbability, you know how vulnerable the team is when he is not on his game. The best you can hope for, as I have detailed before, is off-games do not preclude you from competing. He was 4 assists against 1 turnover and 13 points on 15 shots. That's a bad line for him but it did not keep us from battling down stretch. It may not sound like much, but Boogie's bad night of 4-15 FGs with 4:1 is better than 5-21 FGs with 5 TOs. These are the kind of games we were witness to last year. So that's something...and created an opening for the play of Affalo, Lawson and Temple to mean something before untimely substitutions at end.

    Ultimately there needs to be more pieces in place when Boogie is not at his best, and those pieces don't exist, unless Willie and Ben are going to do a 180 or Malachi and Skal decide to skip the normal developmental curve. Wake me when a trade goes down. Until then it's going to take combination of a Herculean effort from Boogie, an off night, disinterested and/or hobbled night from opponent, or role players playing above their heads to scratch out wins on this home stand. All analysis, supposition and rationalization lead to one conclusion: this team isn't very talented and that includes a head coach who is not as advertised. (Defense rank: 26th out 30)
    New Era and alonshin like this.
  12. Larry89

    Larry89 Disgruntled Kings Fan

    Something that is also disheartening is that Ben doesn't really even need to dribble or run pick and roll. He could just learn how to come off screens and get open and cut and SHOOT, he can't do any of those. In his 4 years he hasn't even developed into a poor mans spot up shooter.
  13. Kingster

    Kingster Well-Known Member

    No more McLemore, please. I'm embarrassed for him and the team and the fans and mankind watching him on the floor. He was ridiculously awful on both defense and offense in this game. You can't tell me there isn't some guy in the D league that could make more of contribution than him. And Whatever-CS is closing in on him fast. Again, I don't believe that you can't find a D-League guy better than Whatever-CS. Coach said he was going to play the rooks more, so get on with it.
    New Era likes this.
  14. Merdiesel

    Merdiesel Well-Known Member

    Joerger lost this one for us.

    There is no doubt the bench has definitely not carried their weight most of the season. Last night was a completely different story. Tolliver and Kosta deserved to finish the game. Cousins was absolutely terrible. Barnes was worse. They both came in late in the 4th and took all the wind out of our sails. They left the door open and Tyler Johnson took full advantage of it. Tip of the hat btw, that kid can play. I will say the game was terribly officiated.
    IfAt1st likes this.
  15. miltonap

    miltonap Well-Known Member

    Ben sucks as a starter. He wasnt too bad as a bench player though tbh
  16. dude12

    dude12 Well-Known Member

    I was at the game and had a close view....much of the bench was gassed after that run. Afflalo was dust. Could they have played more? Sure but Coach made the call to sub in Boogie and Barnes. I thought Barnes played well down the stretch sans the dumb tech. Boogie just didnt have a good game. No coach would not bring Boogie back into the game....none, zero. Joerger didn't cost us the game. I think he deserves credit for starting the second half with anew lineup and putting the right combination out there to get us back in it.

    I think what cost us was obviously the first half. Just a step slow at every turn, including the reserves.
  17. dude12

    dude12 Well-Known Member

    Our biggest problem is Darren Collison routinely gets outplayed by the opposing teams PG's. he played well against Denver because Mudiay is not very good. Dragic torched him. We have a lower tier starting PG. Lawson has been more effective in more games.

    I know Ben has been a disappointment but the reality is DC is routinely outplayed.
  18. funkykingston

    funkykingston Well-Known Member

    We have a lower tier starting PG, a starting SG who has to look way, way up to even see the lower tier, a top 10 or 15 starting SF who wants out, the best center in the NBA and a lower tier starting center/very solid backup center starting alongside him. This team needs a lot of help and I'm not sure how it gets fixed with the assets we have.
  19. pshn80

    pshn80 Well-Known Member

    I think he left them in for an extended period, but I know what you mean. And particularly Cuz, when he goes back in it always changes the play whether for better or worse.
  20. kingjatt

    kingjatt Well-Known Member

    Not a Casspi fan but its crazy how little bad he has to do to get completely shunned out of the rotation while other scrubs like Darren/Willie/Ben seemingly go untouched for doing far worse.

    I honestly think the coach dictates his rotations based on what will most likely keep the team the happiest and together. Not based on matchups/strategies or who from the bench might be effective that night. Almost everyone wants minutes and everyone is a free agent next year so they are fighting to showcase themselves for their next gig. There is real tension and real urgency in that locker room.

    CD did a twitter poll and an overwhelming amount of kings want playoffs at all costs. The drought has caused people to lose sight on how true sustainable small market winners are built around the league. I'm not sure the casual fan will stand for a rebuild even though that is what is probably needed.

    We should do what should have been done from the day Vivek took over, begin to acquire assets and go thru a full rebuild with a competent front office(hopefully) and Joerger at the helm.

    Look there are no shortcuts to being winners unless your lucky enough to have lebron born in your city. if everyone could take shortcuts like we have attempted they would but the reality is you must build thru the draft!
    alonshin likes this.
  21. dude12

    dude12 Well-Known Member

    PG upgrade.....Gay as trade bait for Payne or Knight or Dragic. Any of those guys and Lawson would be better. Lawson could play with both Knight and Dragic or back them up. Lawson would start while Payne develops. Then there is the draft.
  22. dude12

    dude12 Well-Known Member

    He sat Afflalo for a stretch and he's been known to become a malcontent if not starting. Casspi complained early in the year and he's sitting him now. Casspi is not better than Barnes or Tolliver or Afflalo at SF. He plays hard but he has several guys in front of him.
  23. kingjatt

    kingjatt Well-Known Member

    Id argue that he does not start on any other team in the league, especially not one with playoff hopes. Maybe he starts over Mudiay and Payton but those are two young guys on rebuilding teams.

    An argument could be made that he is the worst starting PG in the league to complement our worst starting backcourt in the league.
    IfAt1st and dude12 like this.
  24. kingjatt

    kingjatt Well-Known Member

    My point is there are alot of mistakes going on out there, why can't Joerger apply the same logic to the others like Willie/Ben or DC/Barnes who have been just as bad at times if not worse. I just cant see any consistency in his thought process in regards to benching/rotations.
    alonshin likes this.
  25. pshn80

    pshn80 Well-Known Member

    Ben was a good pick who has not panned out at all. Our worst mistake was not recognizing this fact earlier and moving him out. The biggest reason for our poor results these last two years and this year is all the minutes Ben has played. Love the guy but the sooner he is gone the better.
    The Hammer likes this.
  26. Kingster

    Kingster Well-Known Member

    Loved the post, but I think the never-ending patience with McLemore by the Kings organization has given the league evidence beyond a shadow of a doubt that he cannot play in this league. Maybe a year or two ago there might have been some GMs that thought maybe he could play, that maybe he would develop, but now he's proven without question that he can't. To me, it's a cautionary tale that should speak to the future of WCS. When WCS has proven beyond a shadow of doubt he can't play, who will want him? Better to make a deal now when there is still some doubt in the air about his future prospects.
  27. funkykingston

    funkykingston Well-Known Member

    Dragic would be an upgrade. Payne might be an upgrade in time. I'd argue that Knight is a lateral move and at a much higher price tag. But he is locked up beyond this year and DC isn't.
  28. kingsboi

    kingsboi Well-Known Member

    Remember once upon a time when Cleveland had interest in McLemore?
    Big Cuz 15 likes this.
  29. dude12

    dude12 Well-Known Member

    I think Joerger's doing a great job of piecing together as much production as he can in 48 minutes......can't tell you about Ben. There may be more to it that we are not privy too...such as keeping him in rotation while we are looking to trade him....honestly don't know. But I think coach is grinding 48 minutes out of the roster.
    pshn80 likes this.
  30. dude12

    dude12 Well-Known Member

    I think if it was a Payne trade, the upgrade is Lawson starting or playing more minutes while Payne develops.

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