[Grades] Grades v. Clippers 11/01/2013

Discussion in 'Kings Rap' started by Bricklayer, Nov 1, 2013.


Who's got to be better to get the win tommorow?

Poll closed Nov 2, 2013.
  1. Salmons

    15 vote(s)
  2. Patterson

    20 vote(s)
  3. Grevis

    4 vote(s)
  4. McLemore

    6 vote(s)
  1. Bricklayer

    Bricklayer Don't Make Me Use The Bat Staff Member Contributor

    Phooey! The dream of an 82-0 season down the drain.

    These games have been real wars of a sort we haven't seen many of around here in a long while, but if you look carefully at this particular gritty battle you'll still notice the opponent scoring 110 on us on 50% shooting, which is about as gritty as a Keith Smart/Kenny Natt double header. On the positive side, Cuz was again a force, but wilder this time and made more mistakes. IT was explosive off the bench until the stretch run, and the reemergence of old friends MT and JT began to give us the look of something more than a 2 man team. On the negative side our SFs were just awful all night ( a 3 year hole yet to be patched), our rookie's defense was as rookielike as can be (and really now its the regular season, he can't guard Crawford and we know it, no need to keep on proving it), and despite the low turnover total we just made too many mistakes on both ends of the floor. that last is a generalized platitude, but its true. Missed open shots, passes we didn't need to make, others we did, leaving guys open on the perimeter, various hacks on defense including some terrible ones in the 4th at the three point line, even an odd coaching decision by Malone to randomly try hack a DeAndre. Just too much to overcome.

    Hey hey! Its a full 5 man Grading Consortium tonight!

    Your Graders Tonight Will Be:
    Capt. Factorial


    Stats: 29min 2pts (1-7, 0-1, 0-0) 1reb 3ast 2stl 1blk 1TO
    Salmons ( D ) -- Another appearance by the Stinky Fish tonight, if you can call what he did tonight as even appearing. He went 0-5 in the first half, and was 1-2 in the second. By all accounts virtually invisible on the offensive end during the game. Somewhere he managed to rack up 3 assists which I guess is a plus... This may have been a poor performance, but it was nothing in comparison to how terrible his defense was which actually caused quite a bit of damage. Salmons was constantly cheating off of Barnes and Dudley to provide help to the middle when it wasn’t needed. This lead to many untimely open looks for both Dudley and Barnes that just didn't need to happen. He often seemed to forget who he was suppose to be guarding and ended up wandering aimlessly between the 3-point line and key. For whatever reason he appears to be confused by the defensive scheme and doesn't know when to help or when to stick with his man. Something that should improve in the coming games as familiarity with the defensive end sinks in, and if it doesn't, hopefully Luc can come back soon to take his place in the rotation.--Spud

    Stats: 18min 6pts (3-8, 0-4, 0-0) 3reb 1ast 1stl 0blk 0TO
    Patterson ( D+ ) -- Houston, we have a problem. For some reason, our old GM was obsessed with Rockets shooters that failed to consistently shoot well once they donned a Kings jersey. PPat is an average defender, below average rebounder but overall good teammate. The problem is his value in the starting lineup is based mostly on his shooting and his ability to stretch the floor to open things up for Cuz. When he isn't hitting (like tonight) he doesn't do enough to justify major minutes, especially as he isn't a good defensive compliment our big man. Tonight he wasn't giving us anything on offense and #$*@ Griffin was too effective the other way. The good news, Malone recognized it and PPat rode the bench. Unfortunately, he was back in at crunch time due to "extremely well officiated" foul calls and was part of the crew that let things slip away. PPat does little things well and rarely kills his own team the way our SF's can but he's got to get his shooting under control. --sdballer

    Stats: 35min 24pts (9-19, 6-9, 0-1) 10reb 4ast 3stl 2blk 4TO
    Cousins ( A- ) -- We know Cousins is an offensive force. We know Cousins is a monster rebounder. But we're told again and again that Cousins is a downright poor defender. That characterization may have applied last year, but under Malone it appears it is no longer true. Cousins was a true defensive anchor tonight - blocking shots, making great rotations, using his long arms as a disruption (3 steals), defending the pick and roll, running out at shooters to try to clean up after our hideous perimeter D tonight...the list goes on and on. A few highlights: rotated on D to thwart a Blake Griffin baseline drive that would otherwise have resulted in a dunk; stopped DeAndre Jordan trying to drive to the hoop and forced a turnover; blocked a Griffin runner in the lane; forced Griffin into a very bad miss in the post; took a charge on a Dudley baseline drive on a sweet rotation; crowded Chris Paul on the perimeter and forced him into throwing the ball away; blocked CP3 on a drive late in the fourth (but got a Tech for some minor, minor taunting). He was our best defensive player tonight, by a large margin, and we would not have been in the game in the fourth quarter without him. Oh, by the way, he scored 24 points and grabbed 10 rebounds, too. It's just that we know that he's going to do that. He went to the Tim Duncan angle jumper off the glass for his first points of the game (the second game in a row that he's done that) and finished the game 3-6 on jumpers (2 misses to beat the shot clock) but did most of his damage in the post, including a highlight catch and layup off of a Greivis pass that wasn't quite where it was supposed to be. But Cousins had a few missteps this game too. Throughout the game he missed 3 of 9 free throws that really could have helped down the stretch. He tried to run not one, not two, but THREE breaks in traffic (all in the first half) and was lucky to avoid disaster on all of them. Find a guard, big man! Finally, he committed a bad reach-in foul on Chris Paul in the final minute with 7 seconds left on the shot clock and a five-point Kings deficit that sealed the game. We probably weren't going to win, but after that foul it was over. So he wasn't perfect, but a 24/10 line and the best D on the floor is enough to get into the A range.--Capt.

    Stats: 33min 17pts (6-12, 3-7, 2-2) 4reb 1ast 0stl 0blk 0TO
    Thornton ( B ) -- Sort of a tough one to grade. Let's start with the good. Played the third option nicely by spacing the floor and playing off of our two big scorers all night long. Had a couple stretches where he was quiet, but I'll take a MT who's being conservative with his shot selection over the MT of the last couple years. Plus Marcus showed once again that he's comfortable taking big shots, which is a big deal for a team that has never looked comfortable in crunch time. At times in the preseason it was tough to see how Thornton was going to fit into this offense, tonight while playing mostly without the ball he fit in seamlessly. I don't want to make excuses for Thornton's defense but it should be noted that the poor perimeter defense tonight was truly a team effort. Bottom line is though the Kings got outplayed from the two guard spot partly due to MT's inability to guard his position. In what's sure to be a recurring theme we tried our best to hide him and McLemore as the game went on. A understandable strategy and one that's emblematic of a team whos best perimeter defender is Travis Outlaw. So sort of the classic Thornton dichotomy, how valuable is what he gives you on offense vs what you lose on defense? Tonight the good out weights the bad, let's just hope those shots keep falling.--Henkel

    Stats: 20min 8pts (2-5, 0-0, 4-4) 2reb 4ast 0stl 0blk 0TO
    Vasquez ( C+ ) -- slow mediocre start again, but also again a better third before bowing out. From the start of the game was being run through a maze of screens up top on defense against CP3, but in the early going was doing a solid enough job of picking his way through them and CP3 wasn't really pressing the attack. On offense forced one random dumb shot off his dribble, but wasn't really the guy making things happen on offense in the early minutes. Began to get more assertive offensively as the quarter wore on but on the other end began to slow down getting around the screens and was the first starter subbed out. Returned to the gmae in the late 2nd alongside IT instead of replacing him, and was immediately scored over by Reddick. After turning the corner and throwing a flip attempt off the side of the backboard finally got a floater to go for his first hoop of the game in the final 2 min of the half and it woke him up a little. Cp3 came out to start the third with a three, but it was over Cousins on a switch. Unfortunately after half CP3 was picking up the intensity in general, and Grevis was no longer staying in front of him the way he had been early. On the other end however he was more aggressive, and despite getting another swooping flip knocked out of there he was attacking, and controlling our offense. As we surged back in the second half of the 3rd finally capped things by throwing one of his over the top passes to Cousins for a below the rim alley oop that only a guy with Cousins hands could catch and pull off. But with IT being so dynamic, and MT coming to life for a decent game, minutes and opportunities dried up for Grevis down the stretch. If he doesn't want it to become a common occurrence he's going to need to consistently be more dynamic. --Brick
    Last edited: Nov 2, 2013
    King Baller likes this.
  2. Bricklayer

    Bricklayer Don't Make Me Use The Bat Staff Member Contributor


    Stats: 31min 29pts (9-13, 3-3, 8-10) 2reb 4ast 1stl 0blk 1TO
    Thomas ( A ) -- got scorching hot early, and just never cooled off. There was even a point I would have toyed with a "+" behind the A. Energy was sky high from the beginning and he was diving all over the floor after balls, and while the numbers aren't PGish, and indeed when he and Vasquez are out there he is playing BJaxish SG, he made more attempts to pass than the boxscore indicates and this didn't have the taint of selfishness that hung over his preseason work. In fact before two late misses, he had his 29 points on just 11 shots. He wasn't having to gun them up everytime down the floor to get there, he just wasn't missing anything. Had the whole package going, threes, quick pullups, and finishes on drives, and Collison who sometimes torched him in preseason couldn't do anything with him this time. About the biggest negative you could say about his early work, and its only a negative if you are a non-Kings fan, is that he got quite a bit of dubious help from the refs, in the early going repeatedly pretty much just running into people and playing the little man card while falling down, once in the third looking like he pulled the I'll kick you on my 3pt shot and fall down thing etc. and getting rewarded for it all. Of course given that this is the Chris Paul Clippers, **** it, you need every ref gift you can get back the other way. In fact started to get into it with CP3 and Blake after returning in the third, and fell victim to a Blake flop to get a technical. But responded off a scramble play after CP3 knocked the ball away from him by hitting an open corner three, and the dogfight was on. Paul responded with a three of his own, then Isaiah niftily split a double near the end of the third and finished with a flip, followed by the leg kick into Paul on a 25 ft three. There was a moment there near the end of the quarter when it felt like his normal dueling mentality was going to get the better of him, and us, and things were turning selfish. In fact on 1 pay which luckily did not count because Barnes grabbed hold of Ben's arm on the break to keep him from running the lane, IT was just about to pullup for one of those asinine 1 on literally 4 fastbreak pullups. But the quarter break calmed him, and he made a nice pass to a cutting JT to start the 4th, followed by another good attempted pass to M16. Finally either cooled or perhaps deferred more to Big Cuz after he returned for the latter stages of the 4th, and went quiet as CP3 began to push back. It wasn't a series of 1 on 1 blow bys by Paul, and a lot of Paul's scoring was coming from the Clippers pick action up top and the resulting switches on our defense. But Paul was getting pretty much wherever he wanted to go as we couldn't stop them down the stretch. One final mistake helped finish us, as out of the timeout at the 1:20 mark of the 4th IT jumped into the air with no place to go and turned it over on a play that likely finished us. So any "+" prospects were lost in the process, but I doubt you're going to see too many games where IT scores this many points so explosively and efficiently -- through 2 games he's shooting .636 and .857 from 3ptland. --Brick

    Stats: 30min 11pts (4-8, 0-0, 3-5) 7reb 2ast 0stl 2blk 1TO
    Thompson ( B+ ) -- The Big Average is back!!! On his best days, JT never really excels at any particular aspect of the game but his overall energy can be a big boost to the team. This was one of those nights. After looking suspect most of the preseason, JT showed up tonight. He held on to passes when attacking the rim(He's always been a good athlete but his body control limits his finishing abilities). Passers finding him in the right spots is a help, but hanging on to the dang ball is good too. He defended at a good level and he held his own on the boards. Would love to see him rotate better but that was a teamwide problem today. He's still struggling at the line and he makes at least one bonehead play a night, but this is the kind of performance we need from at least one of our totally not-intimidating 3-headed PF monster each game. Honestly, someone of that group needs to step up as this team's enforcer. We really don't need our immature star serving in that role. Of the 3, Landry is the toughest but he's out and doesn't really fit the part. So JT, time to start getting your big man's back and laying people out when necessary. Stop wasting stupid fouls. PS. Coach Malone, please never run that set where JT runs the play at the top of the key again. Yucky to watch. --sdballer

    Stats: 13min 2pts (1-2, 0-0, 0-2) 0reb 1ast 0stl 0blk 0TO
    McLemore ( D ) -- My McLemore highlight of the night came on his first defensive possession. Jerry and Grant were musing about how Crawford kicking the snot out of the rook in the preseason had prepared him for what lay ahead and then of course Reynolds had to take it one step further. As he was claiming that "Ben's an unusually good defender for a rookie" McLemore rudely interrupted him by fouling Crawford on a little up fake. Looked helpless out there at times and even when Crawford wasn't scoring he was consistently getting past Ben with ease. Came in late third on Crawford again and got beat right away again. That one play was the only chance he got and he was switched onto Barnes for the remainder of his time on the floor. Looked lost and out of depths all night but never more so then on defense. Those free throws were a true deer in the headlights moment. I don't want to come across as too harsh. He's a rookie and to use this game to project where he'll end up even a few months from now would be foolish. The rookie looked the part tonight though. --Henkel

    Stats: 12min 0pts (0-1, 0-0, 0-0) 3reb 0ast 0stl 0blk 1TO
    Hayes ( C+) -- As an offensively-challenged player, Chuck needs to make his calling card on defense, but tonight he was probably not our best defensive post player (see Cousins, DeMarcus), so he really served as nothing but a lineup filler while our franchise guy was getting a breather. He was involved in a frantic bit of offense/defense substitutions with DMC in late 3rd resulting in drawing a charge on BJ Mullens - just like Cousins would have done. He also applied some pressure on a Collison drive that resulted in a badly missed shot. Chuck only took (and missed) one shot - apparently his tipback attempt in the fourth was pathetic enough to not even register in the scorebook. But all in all, he played good D while DMC was resting, so he was a small net positive. Also, Chris Paul is a dirty player and perhaps the biggest whiner in the league. That's got nothing to do with Chuck Hayes, but I feel like I've got to pad out his writeup.--Capt.

    Stats: 18min 2pts (1-4, 0-1, 0-0) 3reb 1ast 0stl 0blk 1TO
    Outlaw ( C ) -- Outlaw had a boneheaded foul on Crawford which lead to a 4-point-play opportunity. He also forced two shots that I wish never happened. But outside of those three plays (and a bad turnover that lead to a Barnes layup...) he had a pretty solid game. On the offensive end with only 4 shot attempts (1 make) in 18 minutes he certainly didn't take many shots away from guys who should have been taking them. He had a nice assist that lead to a Thornton 3 and a couple passes that should have been easy buckets at the rim. On the defensive end he played defense about as good as you can on Crawford. He stuck to Dudley and Barnes too and limited the open looks they received. The most impressive thing I saw him doing on defense (that Salmons was neglecting) was constantly boxing out guys and not letting the Clippers get easy put-back dunks or rebounds. I can see a Luc + Outlaw rotation in the future with Fish being the odd-man out. I hope. --Spud

    Stats: 1min 0pts (0-0, 0-0, 0-0) 0reb 0ast 0stl 0blk 0TO
    Ndiaye ( INC ) -- although maybe realistically an A+ given that he unexpectedly got a few plays late in the first half after Malone started randomly hack a DeAndreing with the mission to go grab DeAndre. And he did, showing perfect form in the process. --Brick
    Last edited: Nov 2, 2013
  3. HereWeBoogie

    HereWeBoogie Well-Known Member

    Salmons doesn't deserve another NBA minute.
    c-webb1s#1, jalfa and KingMilz like this.
  4. Dime Dropper

    Dime Dropper Well-Known Member

    Salmons is terrible, but Outlaw is far worse. Lowest IQ I think I've ever seen in a Kings uni. His game hasn't changed people, one good shooting game in pre-season does not make him valuable. I seriously can't wait for the day that he is not on our roster.
  5. swisshh

    swisshh Well-Known Member

    Need to put Salmons on the curb with a "TANK COMMANDER 4 SALE" sign.
  6. Mr. S£im Citrus

    Mr. S£im Citrus That's right, I said it! Staff Member Contributor

    At least Outlaw's athleticism enables him to make the occasional good play by accident. And, as bad as he is, I'm never questioning Outlaw's effort when he's on the court.
    VF21 likes this.
  7. Dime Dropper

    Dime Dropper Well-Known Member

    It rarely does, though. He got the tip in tonight but he almost never makes plays like that. I'm not Salmons biggest defender but at least he can create off the dribble and though he shoots too much, at least they're usually within the rhythm of the offense, he just happens to miss most. Outlaw decides he's shooting before he even gets the ball, and he's putting it up through hell and high water. He just doesn't do anything except shoot terrible shots. He gives effort, but to be fair, so does Salmons. Expression (or lack thereof) does not equate to effort!
  8. Mr. S£im Citrus

    Mr. S£im Citrus That's right, I said it! Staff Member Contributor

    Outlaw rarely does anything good, but he also doesn't do as many things poorly as Salmons does. And, again, when Outlaw is on the court, I'm never asking myself if he's actually engaged in the action.
  9. jcwkings

    jcwkings Well-Known Member

    Outlaw was not terrible, despite fouling Crawford for that 4 pt play, i though his pressure defense on him in the 3rd was key to sparking our run, Crawford was going nuts, but didn't do much after Outlaw started guarding him. But yeah the sooner we find a good SF, the better. Package Jimmer one of JT or Patterson, Hayes and maybe a pick if you are getting a high quality one.
  10. KingMilz

    KingMilz Guest

    Outlaw needs to start he's the best perimeter defender we got and playing with the starters there is zero pressure for him to do anything on offense other than jack open looks and attack the glass. He's outplayed Salmons in limited time in every game other than 1 preseason game. I rather throw Ben Mac to the Wolves are a starting SF than ever see Salmons on the floor again.
  11. Mr. S£im Citrus

    Mr. S£im Citrus That's right, I said it! Staff Member Contributor


    Who the hell is looking at Fredette, Hayes and Thompson (or Patterson), and saying, "Sure, we'll give you a high quality wing for that"? Did Isiah Thomas get another GM job when I wasn't looking?
    annihilator_33, jalfa, VF21 and 3 others like this.
  12. Dime Dropper

    Dime Dropper Well-Known Member

    Please no Outlaw starting, please no. Salmons has discernible skills - can dribble, create, mid-range game, defend a little. Still terrible, not denying that. But Outlaw is... Bah, no point bothering. They're both bad, doesn't matter in the grand scheme of things who starts, I just see Salmons as the lesser evil as I don't think he'll continue shooting so poorly all season.
  13. Bosnian Diehard

    Bosnian Diehard Well-Known Member

    If Salmons could get his jumper going consistently, he'd actually be close to decent.
  14. HereWeBoogie

    HereWeBoogie Well-Known Member

    Outlaw was astronomically better than Salmons tonight. as long as he just hustles and doesn't try to be the man on Offense he will be a better option than Salmons in any situation
  15. jcwkings

    jcwkings Well-Known Member

    Someone looking for a salary dump with Fredette, Patterson, Salmons + pick. The Raptors seem to be shopping Gay. A first round draft pick(in a strong draft class apparently) and a bunch of expiring is probably more valuable to them.
  16. HereWeBoogie

    HereWeBoogie Well-Known Member

    he just kills us when he does those things. taking the ball out of our better players hands with his garbage one on one plays. hes horrible. id rather play 4 on 5 than have him out there "dribbling" and "creating"
    Dime Dropper likes this.
  17. jcwkings

    jcwkings Well-Known Member

    C: Cousins
    PF: JT
    SF: Gay
    SG: Thornton
    PG: Vasquez

    Bench: IT, McLemore, Landry, Outlaw, Hayes

    that is a playoff contender imo.
  18. Mr. S£im Citrus

    Mr. S£im Citrus That's right, I said it! Staff Member Contributor

    The salaries aren't close, with either Thompson or Patterson.

    Maybe if we could talk them into Salmons, Hayes, Fredette and a pick, but I don't see why they would do it, and I don't see why we would, either.
  19. HereWeBoogie

    HereWeBoogie Well-Known Member

    Only if Gay buys in to the system and stops chucking.

    i think he was like 6-24 tonight
  20. Fear the Putin

    Fear the Putin Well-Known Member

    we're arguing about who the crappier SF is on our team
  21. sdballer

    sdballer Well-Known Member

    Gay isn't worth anything close to that.
  22. spudfan

    spudfan Well-Known Member

    This is how I saw it tonight. I had the pleasure to grade them both... Outlaw isn't that good. And he isn't that bad. When he plays within himself he doesn't have a huge impact either way and gives the starters time to get back in which is good enough for a bench guy. Salmons on the other hand, he really hurts the team when he is out there doing nothing.
  23. spudfan

    spudfan Well-Known Member

    Who is a worse? Salmons as a starter or Outlaw as a bench player? To me it isn't even close.
  24. spudfan

    spudfan Well-Known Member

    Luc as the starter and Outlaw off the bench please!
  25. Kingfanpaul

    Kingfanpaul Well-Known Member

    I may lean towards this opinion too, but it's hard to say for sure given the limited time we've seen him play with this team.
  26. HereWeBoogie

    HereWeBoogie Well-Known Member

    id rather give Slamson or Jerry Reynolds the SF minutes at this point. they CANT hurt the team more than Salmons
  27. VF21

    VF21 #KingsFansForever Staff Member Contributor

    You guys are seriously arguing the merits of Outlaw vs. Salmons? What the hell is wrong with you? It's like arguing the merits of turnips vs. Brussels sprouts.
  28. ShastaKingsFan

    ShastaKingsFan Well-Known Member

    They already know exactly what he can do, if he's healthy. He was proven with his style of play with the Bucks. Described as a "real professional"

    When he's ready, i'd get him right into the starting lineup. I believe that was the plan all along anyhow
  29. spudfan

    spudfan Well-Known Member

    Brussel sprouts all day errrday.
  30. jcwkings

    jcwkings Well-Known Member

    I'm not saying he is or isn't, just providing a scenario where a team would unload a quality SF to us. We are kind of in a tough spot because this team is probably good enough to get 35-40 wins, which would put us just out of the playoffs. Cousins will be entering his big money years next season, so do you just keep drafting young raw players and waiting 2 or 3 years for them to be able to contribute in a significant way? I don't think that is the way to go. Cousins is playing like a true #1 option and Isaiah is showing that he is good enough to be a true # 3 imo. We need to find that #2, and to me it will be through trade, or if McLemore puts it together.

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