Grades/post-game discussion v. Pelicans - 12/8

Mr. S£im Citrus

Doryphore of KingsFans.com
Staff member
#61
Since when are the Pelicans in the same conversation as the Warriors and Cavs?
The hell? How did you get that, out of this:

No, but their is unearned arrogance on display here.

Yes, let's "rest" Rondo. And start Clark, who has been awful. And hey, even with Cousins and Davis available, let's just play neither and have Asik out there alone. And hey, why not sub out Holiday too, so all three of the guys who can create their own offense are out at the same time. Why not? After all, it's just the Kings.

Last week the Warriors arroganted themselves right into a loss with this same Kings squad. Last game LeBron had to wake up and hero the Cavs to a come from behind victory because they were doing the same nonsense. Screw around enough, and you can make a game out of what should not be here.
The whole point of what he said was that the Pelicans aren't in the same class of the Warriors and Cavaliers, and therefore had no business going into the game having the attitude that it was going to be an "easy" win.
 
#62
While giving frank mason props last night Doug Christie again said that frank has the poise and fundamentals that 4 years of college instilled in him. The NBA can't force kids to stay in college like the NFL does but damn, it really does make a difference in the players development. When I start feeling down on Fox sometimes I have to remind myself that even though fox and frank are both rookies Frank Mason is way ahead of Fox in development.
Mason’s been awesome. Even at this early stage of his rookie year, he looks like a promising point guard with three years of experience in the NBA. And that’s not to take anything away from Fox, who will come into his own in due time. Mason’s our second chance with IT, but an IT that’s a willing passer and a motivated defender.
 
#63
"IF they manage to work that out....."

Heard that for boogies entire stint here. IF. After watching today's game and watching boogie beasting, along with the scowling, the complaining, the thin skin, and a bit of hilarious flopping, I'm 100% satisfied with where we are and where we are going.
No way I'd rather be them. No way..........
And in working out I meant signing Boogie in free agency compared to the possibility that he walks, nothing more nothing less. I don't give a crap about the attitude or whatever or what the Pelicans are doing record wise.

They still have one of the best young players in the league in Davis. We don't. If they lock up Cousins they have two stars locked up for several years. We don't even have one. Yeah... I'd rather be them.

Having no Cousins is refreshing for some people because there's no expectations right now, but that won't last forever.
 
#64
Mason’s been awesome. Even at this early stage of his rookie year, he looks like a promising point guard with three years of experience in the NBA. And that’s not to take anything away from Fox, who will come into his own in due time. Mason’s our second chance with IT, but an IT that’s a willing passer and a motivated defender.
To be fair to IT he could be the most motivated defender in the league and also still be its worst.
 

Kingster

Hall of Famer
#65
Here's a post by Brick in response to "How dare Gentry throw those turnovers! He's such a bad coach!"
No, but their is unearned arrogance on display here.

Yes, let's "rest" Rondo. And start Clark, who has been awful. And hey, even with Cousins and Davis available, let's just play neither and have Asik out there alone. And hey, why not sub out Holiday too, so all three of the guys who can create their own offense are out at the same time. Why not? After all, it's just the Kings.

Last week the Warriors arroganted themselves right into a loss with this same Kings squad. Last game LeBron had to wake up and hero the Cavs to a come from behind victory because they were doing the same nonsense. Screw around enough, and you can make a game out of what should not be here.
It actually sound like Brick has some respect for what the Kings are doing. Maybe one of these days we'll see him back in this forum as a Kings' fan!:D
 
#66
Vindication of sorts to beat the Boogie Man. We can stop second guessing ourselves about the trade and realize that we are right on track to improvement.
Mason was magnifient in the 4th and OT. Jerry says the game is still too fast for him. He is the best draft pick since IT.
Randolph is still one of the best position players in the League. He has the outside shot and can still get up and down the floor for 4 quarters and OT, especially for an old chunky guy. His game comes right off the playground, and there is no one better when the game is on the line. His attitude is great and becoming contagious.
Vince showed he can still play at 40. When the Kings went to small ball, he had to cover a less than 100% AD and did a great job.
Fox brings an added dimension and puts pressure on defenses.
Buddy is playing much better and needs to realize that he should not handle at the end of games. He wants to shoot the free throws.
Papa showed great improvement. For short stints he is more mobile than I thought and takes up a lot of room. Some of his fumbilitis is mental.
Temple is a player I want to like, but he does not produce.
Hill is ramping up his game, but still a disappointment to some extent.
Sampson got in foul trouble and could not match his game against LeBron.
Kufous works hard.
The confidence is building and it is reflected in the play of the Kings. I do not think they miss Skal and Willie at all. If the Kings can play small ball against the twin towers of the Pels it will work on a lot of teams.
 

Kingster

Hall of Famer
#67
I mean, the Pelicans are clearly a playoff team. They're in that range with the Blazers/Jazz/Nuggets. They're honestly better than the Jazz I'd say. I don't envy them this year because of Cousins' impending free agency hanging uncertainty over that franchise, but if they manage to work that out I'd rather be them than us.
I just find it interesting that two All-Stars and Holiday, not a bad guard, might get them the 7th or 8th slot in the playoffs. It definitely reminds me of conversations on this board of how far Cousins could eventually take the Kings.
 

bajaden

Hall of Famer
#71
Mason’s been awesome. Even at this early stage of his rookie year, he looks like a promising point guard with three years of experience in the NBA. And that’s not to take anything away from Fox, who will come into his own in due time. Mason’s our second chance with IT, but an IT that’s a willing passer and a motivated defender.
Yeah, I think people need to keep reminding themselves when comparing Mason to Fox, that Mason had four years of college and Fox only one. It makes a big experience difference. Think how good Fox will be three years from now. Tiny steps, tiny steps........
 
#72
Scheming a way for the Pels to nab the 8th seed and get swept by the Warriors? Different team same goal.
Ha, I would actually love to see NOP-GSW in the first round. Its not going to hurt us anyway, and it would be great entertainment value.

I am convinced the Warriors brings out the worst in Boogie. They know how to get under his skin. And because he was witness to their rise to greatness from 1.5 hours away while his teams could not crack the 30 win barrier he is envious of their incredible success. He wanted to part of the Splash Brothers.

Last night was a microcosm of Boogie's career. I have seen that game before. Awesome production but carelessness and aloofness.

The excess turnovers and the lazy defense (in transition and on the pick and roll) gave us the opening. There was a crack in the door when Boogie-led squad could have slammed it shut.

Boogie needs to take a step back, defer to Davis more (once he regain health) and then that team is a probably 8th seed.

I think they also paid for thinking Rondo could take the night off and they could win without him. Rondo has looked pretty sharp since his return, at least on one end running the offense.
 
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bajaden

Hall of Famer
#73
And in working out I meant signing Boogie in free agency compared to the possibility that he walks, nothing more nothing less. I don't give a crap about the attitude or whatever or what the Pelicans are doing record wise.

They still have one of the best young players in the league in Davis. We don't. If they lock up Cousins they have two stars locked up for several years. We don't even have one. Yeah... I'd rather be them.

Having no Cousins is refreshing for some people because there's no expectations right now, but that won't last forever.
If they lock up Cousins along with Davis, they'll have no money under the cap to obtain the right complimentary players. Cousins will cost them somewhere in the neighborhood of 41 to 44 mil a year if they can sign him for the max. Their projected salaries for next season without Cousins is around 93 mil. Add Cousins and that would bring them to around 135 mil in total. That's after letting Rondo, Cunningham, Nelson, Crawford, Clark, and Allen walk out the door. They would have only 9 players on the roster and no money, other than exceptions and the league minimum to fill out the roster. Maybe, just maybe they'll be able to snag the 8th spot in the playoffs and get eliminated in the first round. All that while having maybe the highest or 2nd highest payroll in the NBA. Sorry, buts that's my definition of Salary Cap Hell with no future in sight.

On the other hand, the Kings have a lot of young talent and will add at least one more lottery pick to that mix in the next draft. At the end of next season, the Kings will be around 60+ mil under the cap. To these old eye's, that looks like a far more attractive future.
 

Kingster

Hall of Famer
#74
If they lock up Cousins along with Davis, they'll have no money under the cap to obtain the right complimentary players. Cousins will cost them somewhere in the neighborhood of 41 to 44 mil a year if they can sign him for the max. Their projected salaries for next season without Cousins is around 93 mil. Add Cousins and that would bring them to around 135 mil in total. That's after letting Rondo, Cunningham, Nelson, Crawford, Clark, and Allen walk out the door. They would have only 9 players on the roster and no money, other than exceptions and the league minimum to fill out the roster. Maybe, just maybe they'll be able to snag the 8th spot in the playoffs and get eliminated in the first round. All that while having maybe the highest or 2nd highest payroll in the NBA. Sorry, buts that's my definition of Salary Cap Hell with no future in sight.

On the other hand, the Kings have a lot of young talent and will add at least one more lottery pick to that mix in the next draft. At the end of next season, the Kings will be around 60+ mil under the cap. To these old eye's, that looks like a far more attractive future.
One of the post game questions of last night's game was, "Will the Pels be a buyer or a seller at the trade deadline?" What do you think?
 
#75
Guys, I think it's kind of lame to go find Brick's posts on the Pelicans board and then post them back here.

If you want to go check up on what he has to say on the Pels board, then fine. But don't post links back here so people can talk crap about what he has to say. It's just petty gossip and we should be better than that.
 
#76
I don't know how any Kings fan could not be happy with the progress this team has shown after only 25 games. Joerger and staff must be doing something right. Going 2 and 2 on the road trip and not only being competitive in all 4 games, but having a chance to win each of the two losses into the final seconds. Compare that to the earlier road trip where they were just overwhelmed. The thing is you can still see a lot of mistakes that will improve over time, but you can also see flashes of why these young guys have so much potential. I know the "lin" crowd is disappointed with the win, but learning how to win is part of the development. Coaching and playing to lose would send the wrong message. I'm still going to preach patience, there will still be some bad games, some bad performances. I think you are going to see opponents start to take the Kings more serious and adjust their preparation and performance accordingly. They will start to scout the Kings more. The Kings will need to make adjustments as the season goes on.
The Kings have gone from playing some of the most non-competitive basketball I have ever seen in 25 years to be downright competitive and fun to watch.

When 20 point routes was the norm, their point differential was -14 per 100 possessions, which corresponds to a 65-70 loss team. Their win-loss record was actually 2-3 games better than this metric would indicate. They were an embarrassment.

Since the line-up switch with Willie going to the bench and Frank inserted into the rotation, their record is 5-6 and we have seen their point differential decrease to -10.7 (98.3 to 109.0 per 100 possession). Still not good but it is progress! (This stretch still included two blowouts, vs. MIL @ DEN)

When Buddy Buckets went 7-9 from 3s against LAC he ranked 21st in 3 point accuracy. At the time I said "don't worry Kings fans he will be Top 10 soon"..... Well now Buddy Buckets is up to 47% from behind the arc for 5th in the NBA !!! Take that haters. :p

Those who wanted to ordain Boggy as the better player need to take a step back. Boggy can't torch the nets like Buddy. He doesn't have the footwork, off-the-ball activity level, relentlessness or scoring mentality. Now I do not mean to criticize Boggy. Boggy can do things better than Buddy, like defend and pass. But Buddy is the superior and more instinctive scorer with the cold-blooded dagger to send the game to OT against his former team!

I am anticipating Buddy will get his average to 15+ PPG soon. This is where he needs to be based on his efficiency and will easily happen when he gets the number of shots per game he should be getting. He was at 9 FGAs per game. He should be closer to 15 FGAs per game with his efficiency on the rise (57% TS% compare to 52% TS team).

Now onto Z-Bong:

Its time to reconsider this player who has found the fountain of youth. He absolutely torched Boogie last night including a play in OT in which he elbowed him to the chops under the rim then launched a corner 3 as the shot clock expired. That's called adding insult to injury, or injury then insult. I loved it! :)

My pre-season and early season assessment of Randolph is that you can NOT win or even compete with a player wallowing around 50% TS who gives you nothing on defense (besides post defense), and that in order for a player of his style to have any value he would have to do 55% to 60% TS to become even a net neutral to positive player.

His decline in efficiency did not bode well or justify the 2/24:
  • 2014-15 (54% TS)
  • 2015-16 (52% TS)
  • Last year (49% TS)
Look at the trend line for a 36 year old player. This was not pretty. Then something happened. His former coach built an offense around him and he used the first two to three weeks of the season to get into his rotund frame into shape (per his standards) and also decided to make some 3s!

(37% on 3s after being a non 3 point shooter his whole career; 19 makes so far on pace to shatter last season total of 21 and career high of 25)

Z-Bo is now up to 56% TS with help of the long ball and crafty inside moves. That's quite the unexpected surprise. And I will admit to being wrong about this guy! I did not see this coming. I do not know if this will last and he will revert to his below average efficiency but for now Randolph deserves to play 25-30 MPG whereas previously I had only seen him as a 10-15 MPG player. Certainly going up against centers has helped.

At this point its fair to say Randolph is MORE valuable as a vet to our youth than Hill because with Randolph we are running offense through him and guys like Fox and Buddy and Boggy are running off him to get free on the weak side or cuts to the rim. We don't have anyone else who demands this attention. So despite the frustration with his immobility as a defender and rebounder, and black hole nature, Z-Bong represents the best we have to trot out there.
 
#77
I'll tell you what that little dust up between Randolph and Cousins reminded me of....even though it did not come close to escalating to the same level...when Dale Davis took that cheap shot on Bobby Hurley and Michael Smith stepped in to stand up for Bobby and all hell broke loose. Buddy is one of the nicest guys in the NBA and I freaking love it that Randolph stepped in and had his back.
Well, Buddy may be a nice guy but the lil incident and yapping all goes back to Buddy fouling Boogie in the private area last season and the subsequent trade involving the two. Boogie just doesn't seem to like Buddy and let's him know it. Honestly, I can understand it.

It didn't escalate to anything unreasonable and Boogie seems to respect ZBo which helped. Just guys playing competitive ball and not backing down.

But keep all this in mind because the past won't ever go away and we're bound to see more of this each time Buddy and Boogie face each other.

One last thought I had watching last nights game, how cool might it have been if the Kings had been able to pair ZBo with Boogie a few years ago?
 
#78
Guys, I think it's kind of lame to go find Brick's posts on the Pelicans board and then post them back here.

If you want to go check up on what he has to say on the Pels board, then fine. But don't post links back here so people can talk crap about what he has to say. It's just petty gossip and we should be better than that.
I don't follow Brick, but someone mentioned his post and so I looked it up. He was talking about the Kings as much as he was the Pels. So I thought it was relevant for Kings Rap. That said, I wish any mention of Brick didn't bring out the haters who are looking for any opportunity to bash him. I agree that we should be better than that.
 

bajaden

Hall of Famer
#79
One of the post game questions of last night's game was, "Will the Pels be a buyer or a seller at the trade deadline?" What do you think?
You know, I have no idea. I know what I would do, but who knows what they'll do. First, I wouldn't have traded for DeMarcus in the first place. Not that I dislike Cuz, or anything like that, but because of the situation with Cuz only having one year left on his contract, and the cost of resigning him. Cuz is extremely talented, and some team is going to bid on him which means he'll likely get the max. If I were the Pel's, I would try and cover my losses by trading him at, or before the trade deadline, which frankly I think will be a difficult task at this point. But if there's a team out there that wants him, and won't have the capspace to get him in the offseason, then you might find a trading partner.

I think the Pel's were enticed by the idea of having two superstars on the team, and didn't think much beyond that. The question should have been, do they compliment each other? What will the chemistry be like? Sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't. So the burning question at this point is, if we give it more time, will it work? Problem is, the price for finding out is pretty high. I honestly have no idea what they're going to do.
 
#80
Vindication of sorts to beat the Boogie Man. We can stop second guessing ourselves about the trade and realize that we are right on track to improvement.
Mason was magnifient in the 4th and OT. Jerry says the game is still too fast for him. He is the best draft pick since IT.
Randolph is still one of the best position players in the League. He has the outside shot and can still get up and down the floor for 4 quarters and OT, especially for an old chunky guy. His game comes right off the playground, and there is no one better when the game is on the line. His attitude is great and becoming contagious.
Vince showed he can still play at 40. When the Kings went to small ball, he had to cover a less than 100% AD and did a great job.
Fox brings an added dimension and puts pressure on defenses.
Buddy is playing much better and needs to realize that he should not handle at the end of games. He wants to shoot the free throws.
Papa showed great improvement. For short stints he is more mobile than I thought and takes up a lot of room. Some of his fumbilitis is mental.
Temple is a player I want to like, but he does not produce.
Hill is ramping up his game, but still a disappointment to some extent.
Sampson got in foul trouble and could not match his game against LeBron.
Kufous works hard.
The confidence is building and it is reflected in the play of the Kings. I do not think they miss Skal and Willie at all. If the Kings can play small ball against the twin towers of the Pels it will work on a lot of teams.

It will work against a lot of teams. Sure? Most of those teams are not playoff caliber either. I think your overestimating the Kings talent base. Just a little.
Randolph for all intents and purposes is here for 1 year. Kings would have 2 wins if it wasn't for Randolph's offensive production. Kings have some quality wins. But, to say the Kings small ball can match up against the Houston and A Healthy Dubs team on most nights is a farce.
 
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#81
You know, I have no idea. I know what I would do, but who knows what they'll do. First, I wouldn't have traded for DeMarcus in the first place. Not that I dislike Cuz, or anything like that, but because of the situation with Cuz only having one year left on his contract, and the cost of resigning him. Cuz is extremely talented, and some team is going to bid on him which means he'll likely get the max. If I were the Pel's, I would try and cover my losses by trading him at, or before the trade deadline, which frankly I think will be a difficult task at this point. But if there's a team out there that wants him, and won't have the capspace to get him in the offseason, then you might find a trading partner.

I think the Pel's were enticed by the idea of having two superstars on the team, and didn't think much beyond that. The question should have been, do they compliment each other? What will the chemistry be like? Sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't. So the burning question at this point is, if we give it more time, will it work? Problem is, the price for finding out is pretty high. I honestly have no idea what they're going to do.

Pels biggest issue is Gentry. Until they let him go, they will never move up the ladder. I love Gentry as a basketball mind and he's a great man. But, he has been a terrible coach this yr. Pels have too much talent to be just above. 500.

Pels are only a wing or 2 player away from being very good with the right coach.
 

Mr. S£im Citrus

Doryphore of KingsFans.com
Staff member
#82
Guys, I think it's kind of lame to go find Brick's posts on the Pelicans board and then post them back here.

If you want to go check up on what he has to say on the Pels board, then fine. But don't post links back here so people can talk crap about what he has to say. It's just petty gossip and we should be better than that.
I don't follow Brick, but someone mentioned his post and so I looked it up. He was talking about the Kings as much as he was the Pels. So I thought it was relevant for Kings Rap. That said, I wish any mention of Brick didn't bring out the haters who are looking for any opportunity to bash him. I agree that we should be better than that.
We should be better than that, but you have both been here long enough to be aware that we aren't better than that.
 
#83
You know, I have no idea. I know what I would do, but who knows what they'll do. First, I wouldn't have traded for DeMarcus in the first place. Not that I dislike Cuz, or anything like that, but because of the situation with Cuz only having one year left on his contract, and the cost of resigning him. Cuz is extremely talented, and some team is going to bid on him which means he'll likely get the max. If I were the Pel's, I would try and cover my losses by trading him at, or before the trade deadline, which frankly I think will be a difficult task at this point. But if there's a team out there that wants him, and won't have the capspace to get him in the offseason, then you might find a trading partner.

I think the Pel's were enticed by the idea of having two superstars on the team, and didn't think much beyond that. The question should have been, do they compliment each other? What will the chemistry be like? Sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't. So the burning question at this point is, if we give it more time, will it work? Problem is, the price for finding out is pretty high. I honestly have no idea what they're going to do.
I was thinking this too. Their offense makes me cringe and it will never work.
 

VF21

Super Moderator Emeritus
SME
#85
Someone said it: scrappy game by the Kings! Scrappy indeed.
As well as Z-Bo has been playing for us, I'd still like to see him reduced to 18-20 min/game. But he's always played well against Cousins, and won't let Cousins bully him or his teammates. So in this game, I have no problem with the minutes Z-Bo got.
As much as I like Temple, he needs his minutes cut back until he can be more productive on offense. We're usually a better team with Bogie as the 3rd guard (than with Temple).
Kofus should start every game for us, since he get's about 9 out of 10 game-opening tips. That's an extra possession every game. (OK, not an extra possession per se, but a "first opportunity"?) Sit him at the first stoppage of play if need be. But he's our only guy who wins most of the tips.
Papa has a ways to go, but I see good progress there.
I have no doubt that Skal will return with renewed confidence, which will make him more valuable.
Hill needs to play the 2 and be encouraged to shoot or drive, or drive and kick it out, every time he gets the ball. Aggressive on offense and tenacious on defense. Same role as Buddy. But only one of them at a time.
We're actually playing well wthout WCS. That should make Willie a bit nervous.
I think as the season progresses - and a rookie shows enough to merit more minutes - Z-Bo's will be adjusted to some extent. Other than that, I pretty much agree with the rest of your assessment. :)
 
#86
Btw. always fun to watch Cuz and Zbo go up against each other. It's some oldschool competetive basketball every time. Some chippy plays, lots of trashtalk but still mutual respect - that's how the NBA should be.

Loved the way our young guards finished the game strong. And Papa had some nice plays on offense.

No comment on Gentry though. VC and Joerger got bailed out by his incompetence.
ZBO/Marc Gasol has always played Boogie tough. I remember across multiple seasons that they would frustrate the hell out of him because he couldn't bully them the way he did pretty much everyone else. Just one of the last few guys who doesn't whimper in fear when Boogie is driving to the rim/in the post. Of course, ZBO too old now to really do much to slow him, but it's not for lack of grit if you will.
 
#87
Guys, I think it's kind of lame to go find Brick's posts on the Pelicans board and then post them back here.

If you want to go check up on what he has to say on the Pels board, then fine. But don't post links back here so people can talk crap about what he has to say. It's just petty gossip and we should be better than that.
It's not "gossip" if we are actually quoting what he is posting over there. I just honestly think it rubs people the wrong way that he chose a player over a team. Whether I like it or not, I'll be a Kings fan until the day I die. I was all-in the first year and used to listen to every game on the radio with G-Man because the games were rarely on TV. It's in my DNA. It's just hard for me to understand how somebody can switch teams because their favorite player got traded.
 

bajaden

Hall of Famer
#88
It's not "gossip" if we are actually quoting what he is posting over there. I just honestly think it rubs people the wrong way that he chose a player over a team. Whether I like it or not, I'll be a Kings fan until the day I die. I was all-in the first year and used to listen to every game on the radio with G-Man because the games were rarely on TV. It's in my DNA. It's just hard for me to understand how somebody can switch teams because their favorite player got traded.
While I agree with you that I will be a Kings fan no matter what, it doesn't rub me the wrong way that Bricky decided to follow Cousins instead of the Kings. I don't understand it, but it doesn't offend me. Whatever makes someone happy is fine with me. You have to go to your own drummer as they say.
 
#89
While I agree with you that I will be a Kings fan no matter what, it doesn't rub me the wrong way that Bricky decided to follow Cousins instead of the Kings. I don't understand it, but it doesn't offend me. Whatever makes someone happy is fine with me. You have to go to your own drummer as they say.
I hear ya Baja and honestly I don't know why it bothers me so much because I normally really don't care what others do. But, we are all collectively Kings fans so for whatever reason it bugs me when somebody jumps ship because they don't like what the organization is doing. That's part of being a fan -- lots of frustration and hopefully some joy too. Obviously, as Kings fans we've taken a lot of abuse over the years but it is what it is.
 
#90
We should be better than that, but you have both been here long enough to be aware that we aren't better than that.
I know I should be better than that but I'm not and I will gladly admit it.
I love perusing opposing teams forums, especially when we win. The pelicans just happen to have one of our ex posters and well it was pretty interesting to read. If posting a link here makes me a gossip queen, so be it.
Proud to say I've been banned from some of the worst forums in the league such as lakers ground and the NFL Seahawks net. Some of the most foul obnoxious fans in sports. Gotta stand up for my kings and niners.