Goal of this season - 8 seed or development
- Thread starter Kingsfan23
- Start date
Look, I didn't like the pick as many on here. However, it's over with and all we can do now is hope he turns out to be productive in someway and not out of the league in 5 or 6 years. Looking at some of the players who were available at 13; Valentine, Hernangomez, Baldwin, LeVert, Luwawu & Murray. Other than Hernangomez & LeVert, the others haven't really impressed much and only shown flashes. I'm sure we can look back at this draft in three seasons and say that some of those panned out while Papa hasn't sniffed the court yet. Who knows. Fact of the matter is, we need to support the pick and hope he gets some playing time as the season dwindles down to see if his play in the D-League can translate even in the slightest in the pros.
I didn't give you my expectations. I gave you reality. The truth is that in most drafts there aren't very many players who get meaningful minutes outside of the top 10 picks. Even then, some of the ones who do are because of a situation like Ben (playing because there is no one else, not because of talent).
There aren't many rookies playing meaningful minutes that were drafted this season. And several of those who are playing, are playing poorly. They might actually be better off playing more minutes in the D league where they would hopefully be more successful and gain more confidence (much like Malachi).
There aren't many rookies playing meaningful minutes that were drafted this season. And several of those who are playing, are playing poorly. They might actually be better off playing more minutes in the D league where they would hopefully be more successful and gain more confidence (much like Malachi).
You don't often know who will pan out, so of course you have to go in with higher expectations for a spread of players. In general, teams with poor records like the Kings right now ought to give more evaluatory minutes to rookies - that's all I'm saying. The Kings right now don't have the luxury to wait and are losing more consistently than winning, so it can't much hurt the outcome. This year may be a weak draft as you say, who knows. I"ve always been of the mind, to get better in sports you have to play against players better than yourself - that's where I came from when I once played- of course I'm no pro athlete. I dont follow D-league, but if someone is obviously tearing it up there then they ought to make the jump out and get their licks. It may never be for some players, but they need their chances.
But the minutes thing holds true because the teams with top 10 picks are the ones with bad rosters in need of talent. Our roster was essentially in need of a top 10 pick, and it can be argued we've even lost talent this season. In that sense, if our picks aren't playing there isn't much reason to believe we will get any better for a few years.
Well you are free to believe whatever you want. I don't buy that, but we can't prove each other wrong.
What's troublesome is, that when we had this discussion during the offseason or in the beginning of the season, people always brought up the argument, that once the Kings would establish themselves as a winning team with a good culture (whatever that means) we would have a chance to sign more solid FA's. This was basically the whole justification for signing our bunch of vets on short term deals and going all in for the Playoffs. It was perchieved like this franchise would been looked at entirely different by FA's, when we only would be able to make the Playoffs once, while at the same time bringing up the excuse, that no decent FA would sign here anyways right now.
And here we are, once again struggling to get to .500. Once again out of the Playoffs spots right now and with a bunch of younger and more talented teams infront of us or on par with us.
It's pretty safe to assume, that once again quality FA's won't entertain coming to SAC. Why would they? Why not sign with the Nuggets, Timberwolves, Pelicans or Blazers, when they don't get a contract on the contending teams?
If you are convinced, that mid tier level FA didn't even consider us in the 2016 offseason, why would that change in 2017? And if that doesn't change, where is the path to move forward for this organisation?
That's the question the guys critical of Vlades moves have asked time and time again without getting a convincing response.
What's troublesome is, that when we had this discussion during the offseason or in the beginning of the season, people always brought up the argument, that once the Kings would establish themselves as a winning team with a good culture (whatever that means) we would have a chance to sign more solid FA's. This was basically the whole justification for signing our bunch of vets on short term deals and going all in for the Playoffs. It was perchieved like this franchise would been looked at entirely different by FA's, when we only would be able to make the Playoffs once, while at the same time bringing up the excuse, that no decent FA would sign here anyways right now.
And here we are, once again struggling to get to .500. Once again out of the Playoffs spots right now and with a bunch of younger and more talented teams infront of us or on par with us.
It's pretty safe to assume, that once again quality FA's won't entertain coming to SAC. Why would they? Why not sign with the Nuggets, Timberwolves, Pelicans or Blazers, when they don't get a contract on the contending teams?
If you are convinced, that mid tier level FA didn't even consider us in the 2016 offseason, why would that change in 2017? And if that doesn't change, where is the path to move forward for this organisation?
That's the question the guys critical of Vlades moves have asked time and time again without getting a convincing response.
Convincing is the personal judgement.
Kings off season report card for future employee
2016
Front office: New coach. Kings history of firing coaches and internal instability, will this one last? Is there going to be Karl - Divac like friction, who is in charge?
Star player: Will the top guy I will be playing with leave next year and I will be stuck on fully rebuild team for 3-4 years?
Talent: Low, with Ben and WCS being the future
Working environment: Tense, disaster after January
$$$: Willing to overpay
Facility: Excellent (based on stories)
Playoff: Nope
2017
Front office: Divac - Joerger in charge and on the same page
Star player: Locked for 5 years
Talent: Still Low, with Malachi, WCS, Bogdan, Skal and Papa being the future
Working Environment: Good
$$$: Willing to overpay
Facility: Excellent (based on experience)
Playoff: Probably nope
The difference is obvious, but is it enough?
My judgement is that last off season we could not be competitive with Nuggets, Timberwolves, Pelicans or Blazers regarding free agents, the coming off season we are.
Regarding the talent and impact of Vlade's moves:
Under assumption that Kings go slightly over 50% from now on which is a conservative estimate considering the schedule, in the attachment are the winning percentages over the past 9 years
Kings off season report card for future employee
2016
Front office: New coach. Kings history of firing coaches and internal instability, will this one last? Is there going to be Karl - Divac like friction, who is in charge?
Star player: Will the top guy I will be playing with leave next year and I will be stuck on fully rebuild team for 3-4 years?
Talent: Low, with Ben and WCS being the future
Working environment: Tense, disaster after January
$$$: Willing to overpay
Facility: Excellent (based on stories)
Playoff: Nope
2017
Front office: Divac - Joerger in charge and on the same page
Star player: Locked for 5 years
Talent: Still Low, with Malachi, WCS, Bogdan, Skal and Papa being the future
Working Environment: Good
$$$: Willing to overpay
Facility: Excellent (based on experience)
Playoff: Probably nope
The difference is obvious, but is it enough?
My judgement is that last off season we could not be competitive with Nuggets, Timberwolves, Pelicans or Blazers regarding free agents, the coming off season we are.
Regarding the talent and impact of Vlade's moves:
Under assumption that Kings go slightly over 50% from now on which is a conservative estimate considering the schedule, in the attachment are the winning percentages over the past 9 years
Attachments
Don't buy in to the Debbie downer syndrome from some of the fans. Don't buy into the dumb idea of fans needing a culture change. We will continue to try and compete for the playoffs and its important. The environment in the team and org is so different from the Karl crap show.....the Cousins haters need to hang their hats on something and Cousins has been staying in more control and being a leader so they turn the narrative into any direction they can. It's their choice and opinion....but don't buy into it if you feel that there is progress being made.
Well the Kings had 3 1st round picks in 2016, and not a single one of them is getting meaningful PT. It took until Rudy got injured for Malachi to play any type of real minutes. That's extremely disappointing no matter the circumstance. But it doesn't mean they'll be a bust, it just means that our FO might not be too good.
What type of culture are the Kings exactly trying to build? The last time I checked, we are housing a Domestic Violence abuser, a multiple DUI abuser, and a guy with the biggest rap-sheet in the NBA, and recently turned himself in.
Does this culture not matter? The culture we have in our lockerroom? Of all the active players getting PT, only Cousins, Koufos, Temple, and WCS are guaranteed to be here after 1 year. Are you saying that those guys aren't fighting hard enough? You're heavily implying that.
Joerger would rather player a 36yearold Matt Barnes than young guys. That's pathetic on every level. The only way Barnes doesn't see PT is if he's in a jail cell apparently. Even then, Joerger would still try to play him.
Contrary to that, last season up till Feb, we had 12 games where we lost by 10+pts. This year? 12 games too.
People will only respect the Kings IF they win, they don't give a crap about moral wins like fans might. Another way the Kings can start building respect around the league is if they start becoming more competent at the top. The Kings are still dysfunctional. As the recent ESPN article said, most teams are having to deal with so many Kings guys just at once. Inexperience and incompetence is hurting them. Not being able to develop a single NBA player since Isaiah Thomas hasn't helped us either. During the last draft, you know how many 1st round guys came, and worked out for the Kings? ONE. Only 1 top 30, player came down, and worked out for the Kings.
Again, I highly doubt FAs care about moral wins. Losing by 5 is the same as losing by 10. It doesn't matter, it's still a L in the loss column. Are FAs going to go through every single Kings game, and see "hey look, the Kings lost only by 5pts after giving up a 20pt lead in the 3rd"?
I'd completely understand your logic if the Kings were winning, but they are currently tied for the 24th overall in NBA rankings. We are not winning. Our roster is composed of guys who have no future with this team. Kings arguable have the worst roster situation out of any team in the NBA, not named the Nets.
What about this season makes you think that the Kings are finally turning things around? An improved DeMarcus? The Kings' defense is still bad. Kings are tied for 23rd worst in pts allowed per game, 25th in defensive FG%, 25th worst in 3pt attempts, 27th worst in 3pt %.
Things are better than last year, but that's not saying much.
What type of culture are the Kings exactly trying to build? The last time I checked, we are housing a Domestic Violence abuser, a multiple DUI abuser, and a guy with the biggest rap-sheet in the NBA, and recently turned himself in.
Does this culture not matter? The culture we have in our lockerroom? Of all the active players getting PT, only Cousins, Koufos, Temple, and WCS are guaranteed to be here after 1 year. Are you saying that those guys aren't fighting hard enough? You're heavily implying that.
Joerger would rather player a 36yearold Matt Barnes than young guys. That's pathetic on every level. The only way Barnes doesn't see PT is if he's in a jail cell apparently. Even then, Joerger would still try to play him.
Contrary to that, last season up till Feb, we had 12 games where we lost by 10+pts. This year? 12 games too.
People will only respect the Kings IF they win, they don't give a crap about moral wins like fans might. Another way the Kings can start building respect around the league is if they start becoming more competent at the top. The Kings are still dysfunctional. As the recent ESPN article said, most teams are having to deal with so many Kings guys just at once. Inexperience and incompetence is hurting them. Not being able to develop a single NBA player since Isaiah Thomas hasn't helped us either. During the last draft, you know how many 1st round guys came, and worked out for the Kings? ONE. Only 1 top 30, player came down, and worked out for the Kings.
Again, I highly doubt FAs care about moral wins. Losing by 5 is the same as losing by 10. It doesn't matter, it's still a L in the loss column. Are FAs going to go through every single Kings game, and see "hey look, the Kings lost only by 5pts after giving up a 20pt lead in the 3rd"?
I'd completely understand your logic if the Kings were winning, but they are currently tied for the 24th overall in NBA rankings. We are not winning. Our roster is composed of guys who have no future with this team. Kings arguable have the worst roster situation out of any team in the NBA, not named the Nets.
What about this season makes you think that the Kings are finally turning things around? An improved DeMarcus? The Kings' defense is still bad. Kings are tied for 23rd worst in pts allowed per game, 25th in defensive FG%, 25th worst in 3pt attempts, 27th worst in 3pt %.
Things are better than last year, but that's not saying much.
I meant entire Kings wise, we're better than last year. We have a coach who isn't actively trying to get rid of Cousins. However, I don't think we're better basketball-wise..on a performance level.
We added 4 new players, but last year's team played better together. Our offense under Karl was better, but our defense under Joerger is slightly better.
I believe that if Karl didn't have such a ginormous ego, we'd actually be able to get 8th seed. I don't feel the same about this year's roster..especially now that Rudy is out for the year.
I just can't see us reaching 8th seed. Even with Cousins, we lack talent around him. The only way we have any type of chance at 8th seed with this current roster, is to let Daren Collison loose. In the month of January, DC has put up 14pts on 10shots a game. 52.1% FG, 48.1% 3PT, and 93% FT. DC needs a lot more than 10 shots a game, but he's not getting it with the way Joerger wants to run our offense. Collison is our 2nd best player now. There's no reason that on his efficiency, he's taking so few shots. DC is one of the only guys who can actually create his own shot, and make it effectively. I think he can be a 20ppg scorer if given the opportunity. Again, this doesn't give us any guarantees for playoffs, but your 2nd best player can't be taking only 10 shots a game. This is where some fault on Joerger actually comes imo.
I just see 8th seed being a pipe dream. Kings are 19-30.. you know who else is 19-30? Mavs and T-Wolves.. so if we consider ourselves to be in fighting position, then so do they. Blazers are 22-28, while Nuggets are 21-27.
The question ultimately comes down to whether or not pushing All-IN for 8th seed is worth it, knowing that a very real consequence is missing the playoffs and losing your draft pick. I think we all have our own opinions regarding that.
We added 4 new players, but last year's team played better together. Our offense under Karl was better, but our defense under Joerger is slightly better.
I believe that if Karl didn't have such a ginormous ego, we'd actually be able to get 8th seed. I don't feel the same about this year's roster..especially now that Rudy is out for the year.
I just can't see us reaching 8th seed. Even with Cousins, we lack talent around him. The only way we have any type of chance at 8th seed with this current roster, is to let Daren Collison loose. In the month of January, DC has put up 14pts on 10shots a game. 52.1% FG, 48.1% 3PT, and 93% FT. DC needs a lot more than 10 shots a game, but he's not getting it with the way Joerger wants to run our offense. Collison is our 2nd best player now. There's no reason that on his efficiency, he's taking so few shots. DC is one of the only guys who can actually create his own shot, and make it effectively. I think he can be a 20ppg scorer if given the opportunity. Again, this doesn't give us any guarantees for playoffs, but your 2nd best player can't be taking only 10 shots a game. This is where some fault on Joerger actually comes imo.
I just see 8th seed being a pipe dream. Kings are 19-30.. you know who else is 19-30? Mavs and T-Wolves.. so if we consider ourselves to be in fighting position, then so do they. Blazers are 22-28, while Nuggets are 21-27.
The question ultimately comes down to whether or not pushing All-IN for 8th seed is worth it, knowing that a very real consequence is missing the playoffs and losing your draft pick. I think we all have our own opinions regarding that.
I don't see it that way. We had one mid-1st and two late 1sts. Expectations shouldn't have been high to begin with.
Then there's the fact that we had 12 guys that could be considered in the rotation (Collison/Lawson/Temple/Afflalo/McLemore/Gay/Casspi/Barnes/Tolliver/Cauley-Stein/Koufos/Cousins. You can argue that two of those 12 have played their way out of the rotation (McLemore & Barnes). However, Joerger is hell bent on still playing one of them (Barnes). So that leaves 11 players (if all healthy) that can contribute some minutes.
I actually saw it as a luxury to be honest. It gave us the ability to bring along our rookies slower than usual (e.g., Freddete, Robinson, McLemore, Stauskas). The Spurs tend to take a slow approach and it works out well. You can argue they take the slow approach because the are a great team and play their great players, but they consistently develop their picks into solid contributors. I like the fact that this group is taking it slow. I like the fact that we are changing our ways rather than continually throwing them in the deep end (what's the definition of insanity again?).
In my eyes, those who are "disappointed" set unrealistic expectations for our young guys. They pay attention to the one rookie that is contributing today and get upset why our guys don't do the same. That player is the exception not the rule. I'm totally fine with the Kings being more cautious with their rookies and having them start off in the D-League. Again, it's a different strategy than what we have been doing the past 5 years, but tell me, how successful were we at developing those young guys? If something isn't working, you don't keep at it. You come up with a plan and change it. That's what seems to be occurring here. We're trying something new in an effort to get a different result.
In the meantime, we had enough vets on our team to log all of the NBA minutes. We may not like Afflalo, but he's been better than Hield. We may complain about Collison or Lawson at times, but they've been better than Dunn. We may not like Barnes, but he's been better than Ingram. We may not like Tolliver, but he's been better than Bender. The point is, if the team's goal is to try and compete this year, having our rookies start off in the D-League should not be a knock against the rookies. Even the guys I mentioned taken in the top 6 wouldn't be upgrades over our current roster, so why not have them ease into it and get more confidence playing in the D-League first?
Then there's the fact that we had 12 guys that could be considered in the rotation (Collison/Lawson/Temple/Afflalo/McLemore/Gay/Casspi/Barnes/Tolliver/Cauley-Stein/Koufos/Cousins. You can argue that two of those 12 have played their way out of the rotation (McLemore & Barnes). However, Joerger is hell bent on still playing one of them (Barnes). So that leaves 11 players (if all healthy) that can contribute some minutes.
I actually saw it as a luxury to be honest. It gave us the ability to bring along our rookies slower than usual (e.g., Freddete, Robinson, McLemore, Stauskas). The Spurs tend to take a slow approach and it works out well. You can argue they take the slow approach because the are a great team and play their great players, but they consistently develop their picks into solid contributors. I like the fact that this group is taking it slow. I like the fact that we are changing our ways rather than continually throwing them in the deep end (what's the definition of insanity again?).
In my eyes, those who are "disappointed" set unrealistic expectations for our young guys. They pay attention to the one rookie that is contributing today and get upset why our guys don't do the same. That player is the exception not the rule. I'm totally fine with the Kings being more cautious with their rookies and having them start off in the D-League. Again, it's a different strategy than what we have been doing the past 5 years, but tell me, how successful were we at developing those young guys? If something isn't working, you don't keep at it. You come up with a plan and change it. That's what seems to be occurring here. We're trying something new in an effort to get a different result.
In the meantime, we had enough vets on our team to log all of the NBA minutes. We may not like Afflalo, but he's been better than Hield. We may complain about Collison or Lawson at times, but they've been better than Dunn. We may not like Barnes, but he's been better than Ingram. We may not like Tolliver, but he's been better than Bender. The point is, if the team's goal is to try and compete this year, having our rookies start off in the D-League should not be a knock against the rookies. Even the guys I mentioned taken in the top 6 wouldn't be upgrades over our current roster, so why not have them ease into it and get more confidence playing in the D-League first?
It just makes the rest of your argument look weak when you revert back to generalizing people who have a different viewpoint than you. It basically says "I don't feel like I have enough evidence/reasoning so let me generalize the group in an effort to make them look worse so it it makes me look better." It's unoriginal and tiresome.
I'd like to know if the fans that are gung-ho about making the 8th slot in the playoffs would be willing to mortgage another #1 pick or two. How far are you willing to go? Are we getting to the point where it doesn't matter anymore, so why not send the 2020 pick, the 2021 pick, the 2022 pick for veterans who can get you to the playoffs? I'm just wondering how deep this hole is going to be dug before we've reached bottom.
I used to be on board with the make the playoffs bandwagon, but these terrible losses to Philly and Phoenix convinced me that this team is not anywhere good enough to sustain any kind of consistent winning.
I think we should try and trade whatever player we can to get some draft picks and/or young assets to help build for the future.
Sucks that our best trade asset, Rudy Gay was injured, but I think KK and Collison may be able to get us a young player or draft picks at the trade deadline. LA Clippers may be willing to send a pick for Collision, with Chris Paul always injured.
Tank and keep our top 10 pick, because that is the only way we will ever be able to get that 2nd player duo to put next to DMC, because NO Free Agent worth anything would ever voluntarily sign with the Kings.
DMC can not carry a team full of mid-level role players to the playoffs, he needs a legit stud in the back court to help him (sucks that we had one in IT and the idiot PDA let him go for nothing
!) The only way we are going to get a legit running mate for DMC is to get lucky in the draft.
I think we should try and trade whatever player we can to get some draft picks and/or young assets to help build for the future.
Sucks that our best trade asset, Rudy Gay was injured, but I think KK and Collison may be able to get us a young player or draft picks at the trade deadline. LA Clippers may be willing to send a pick for Collision, with Chris Paul always injured.
Tank and keep our top 10 pick, because that is the only way we will ever be able to get that 2nd player duo to put next to DMC, because NO Free Agent worth anything would ever voluntarily sign with the Kings.
DMC can not carry a team full of mid-level role players to the playoffs, he needs a legit stud in the back court to help him (sucks that we had one in IT and the idiot PDA let him go for nothing
!) The only way we are going to get a legit running mate for DMC is to get lucky in the draft.
I used to be on board with the make the playoffs bandwagon, but these terrible losses to Philly and
DMC can not carry a team full of mid-level role players to the playoffs, he needs a legit stud in the back court to help him (sucks that we had one in IT and the idiot PDA let him go for nothing!) The only way we are going to get a legit running mate for DMC is to get lucky in the draft.
DMC can not carry a team full of mid-level role players to the playoffs, he needs a legit stud in the back court to help him (sucks that we had one in IT and the idiot PDA let him go for nothing
!) The only way we are going to get a legit running mate for DMC is to get lucky in the draft.