Goal of this season - 8 seed or development

#1
If the Kings continue to lose this Rockets game they will be 3.5 out (before the end of the Nuggets/Lakers). And the team has obligations to Chicago to relinquish their pick if it's out of the top ten. They also have an easier/home heavy schedule coming up. If you were management would you continue the course of playing the vets or would you like to see the team giving more minutes to the youth?

"Tanking" is a strong, possibly misleading, word and I don't think anyone wants to set a negative culture. Lots of teams however make the conscious choice to develop the future prospects at the expense of the team achieving optimal win/loss results however.

It would be nice if this team made an 8th seed run, but with about 4-5 other teams jockeying for the 8 seed is it realistic and should it be the primary goal still? At what point would you like to see Malachi/WCS/Skal/Papa getting minutes over some of the vets, if you would?
 

Bricklayer

Don't Make Me Use The Bat
#2
8th seed is the obvious goal. Its kind of even pointless for fans to continue on with the development nonsense, since its not the organization's goal. Cousins, the coach, the GM, and all these vets really want to make the playoffs. So the fight will go on until its over, and with such a crappy #8 seed race, that could be very late. Of course if we continue to lose major cogs to injury, maybe we'll be out of it by mid-March, but it is a long ways off.
 
#3
8th seed is the obvious goal. Its kind of even pointless for fans to continue on with the development nonsense, since its not the organization's goal. Cousins, the coach, the GM, and all these vets really want to make the playoffs. So the fight will go on until its over, and with such a crappy #8 seed race, that could be very late. Of course if we continue to lose major cogs to injury, maybe we'll be out of it by mid-March, but it is a long ways off.
Pointless is playing vets who won't be here next year to hand over this seasons draft pick for many. It's a question for the individual fan, not from the teams perspective necessarily

But hasn't Cousins verbally agreed to commit and is that in jeopardy?
 

Bricklayer

Don't Make Me Use The Bat
#5
Pointless is playing vets who won't be here next year to hand over this seasons draft pick for many. It's a question for the individual fan, not from the teams perspective necessarily

But hasn't Cousins verbally agreed to commit and is that in jeopardy?
You don't trick somebody into agreeing to sign a contract with you then change direction anymore than you get a woman to accept your wedding proposal then quit your job and go live in a yurt "finding yourself" and expect her to endure your stupidity.

Cousins is resigning with an organization that is about winning.
 
#6
Losing Temple is HUGE, probably most important player outside of Cousins. We have no one else that can replace his production in terms of ability to defend, shoot at modest clip, facilitate at times.
 
#7
You don't trick somebody into agreeing to sign a contract with you then change direction anymore than you get a woman to accept your wedding proposal then quit your job and go live in a yurt "finding yourself" and expect her to endure your stupidity.

Cousins is resigning with an organization that is about winning.
Sure you do. Ask Rudy and coach Malone. You see how that worked out :rolleyes:
 
#8
You don't trick somebody into agreeing to sign a contract with you then change direction anymore than you get a woman to accept your wedding proposal then quit your job and go live in a yurt "finding yourself" and expect her to endure your stupidity.

Cousins is resigning with an organization that is about winning.
I agree, but just reading that last sentence makes me wince.
 
#10
Development & keep the pick. It's a better path to a more successful team.

Looking at our history, we're only going to bring in a serious talent next to Cousins either through the draft or through trade. The pick next year and maybe a couple of our young guys might have what it takes to be good to great players next to Cousins. I'm not even saying we need to keep the player we would draft in 2017. It at least is a very good asset that we can use to try and bring in some more talent aboard to help us be competitive one day. Without it, we don't have many assets to develop, many assets to trade, and many options that will come here through FA.

For instance, let's say we kept the pick and it was around 10. Perhaps we trade it to Boston for Crowder and Rozier (or something like that). We then go ahead and sign people to contracts that expire after the 2018-19 season and you go all out after Wall & Bledsoe (couple of Cousins' best friends) in the 2019 offseason with the hopes that Rozier, Bogdanovic, Richardson, Crowder, Cauley-Stein, Labissiere, Papagiannis, Cousins, & our 2018 pick is enough to attract one of them here. Looking at the projected salary cap for that offseason, including Cousins' max extension, estimating Bogdanovic's salary at $8 mil/year, factoring in the cap holds for Cauley-Stein & Rozier, & including the salary for our 2018 pick (assumed it would be around $2 mil that year), that leaves us with about $25 mil in cap space. If we trade Rozier beforehand or do not extend a QO, we'd have ~$33 mil in cap space. That would be enough to make a competitive offer.

PG - Bledsoe / Rozier
SG - Richardson / Bogdanovic
SF - Crowder / 2018 1st
PF - Cauley-Stein / Labissiere
C - Cousins / Papagiannis

I've obviously done plenty of youth movement scenarios, but this is an example of why keeping the pick this year would help us long term (without necessarily rebuidling). An asset is an asset, and when you're a team that doesn't have enough talent (or potential talent) to one day compete, you don't just keep trucking along like everything is perfect in the world. You identify it and come up with a strategy to acquire more talent. Giving away a good asset (2017 1st) for a playoff appearance which at most will make us only slightly more attractive in FA (something that has never been Sacramento's building block) is not wise. It's a talent bleed, and with the current talent this team has, we can't afford that.
 
#11
You don't trick somebody into agreeing to sign a contract with you then change direction anymore than you get a woman to accept your wedding proposal then quit your job and go live in a yurt "finding yourself" and expect her to endure your stupidity.

Cousins is resigning with an organization that is about winning.
Holy cow! Your literally bleeding homerism and optimism. Winning organization really? I mean, I'm die hard but that's off the cliff.
 
#12
It will pain me, if Temple unfortunately has to sit out, to watch a Afflalo/Barnes starting wing lineup. That's what will happen (gag)
Ouch...
FWIW, Casspi will be back next game. :)
(Small comforts...)

If Temple is down (and Gay of course),
I can't see a scenario of no PT for Omri,
no matter how coach feels about Matt.

(But @funkykingston's dream lineup, of Lawson/Temple/Casspi/WCS/Boogie,
will have to wait till Garrett comes back)
 
#13
We desperately need our draft pick this year. The Kings seriously need a franchise PG. Point me to one that we can realistically get that doesn't involve the draft? Almost every elite team has a PG. Keeping the draft pick is the best option going forward.

If the Kings had at least 1 above average player next to Cousins, then I'd probably lean towards playoffs. But guess what? We don't. Collison is a backup PG on most teams. Temple is a bench SG. Afflalo is a bench SG.
 

Bricklayer

Don't Make Me Use The Bat
#14
Holy cow! Your literally bleeding homerism and optimism. Winning organization really? I mean, I'm die hard but that's off the cliff.
Reading is Fundamental!

That is what has been promised. That is what the moves are about. That is what the culture change is about. That is what DeMarcus is signing onto. Not a rebuild. Not a kindergarten. Not "The Process". He's signing back with a coach and GM and even owner not accustomed to losing who have told him he gets to win if he stays. Not when he's 30. Not when the kids discover they have hair down there. But soon. Next season I would imagine. And they're going to chase it this season. because chasing it is culture training for the whole organization jut like getting your ass whooped in a footrace is training for when you finally pull ahead in the next one.

People need to get this through their heads:

We don't quit.
We don't concede defeat.
We compete every game (or nearly).

These are essential principles and the culture change envisioned. Its at least as important as one more player. And it doesn't easily admit kids or development and certainly not tanking. WE DON'T CONCEDE DEFEAT. Joerger is determined to drum that into the franchise until it is second nature. Until we are Grindhouse West. Until we fight, because that's just what the Kings do. When that goal is accomplished, the winning wlil follow.
 
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kingsboi

Hall of Famer
#15
as far as I'm concerned, the goal of this season is to establish a culture and an identity moving forward IMO. What I would like to happen as the Kings fall further back in the Western Conference seedings, is start playing the rookies a bit more and see what you have in them. Retain your top 10 lottery selection and hope to god that this scouting department and front office don't blow it this time around because there will be talent all over the board. I said it for quite sometime, I'm fine with these losses as long as they are close and they are fighting, and that has happened in the majority of the games so I don't have any gripes when it comes to competitiveness.
 
#16
Agree with Brick. It's about building a winning culture. If you somehow earn a playoff spot, that's considered progress. And outsiders start to look at you differently. With a new state-of-the-art facility and improvements in franchise stability and success, you possibly start landing some better free agents to keep trending upward.

That said, there's nothing wrong with trying to play the kids when possible. But they've got to earn those minutes and not have it handed to them. I firmly believe the improved play were seeing from WCS is because he's been so starved for playing time that he's putting out maximum effort each time he gets on to the floor. That wasn't happening before.
 
#17
It can be simplified very easily, IMHO:

Goal of the season:
(No such thing, in the new culture)

Goal of the game: (ANY game)
Win!
(Or go down competing to win until the last second... and then some)
 
#18
You can play hard, compete to the best of your abilities, and establish that mindset without losing the pick. That's what people don't seem to understand. Why does changing a 36 year old veteran playing hard to a 20 year old playing hard all of a sudden mean we're not building a "winning culture?"

If that 20 year old doesn't want to work hard and give it his all, sit his a** down like what we did with Cauley-Stein. You don't just blindly play young players and make them think their lack of motor is acceptable, but you also need to be smart about the current situation and the talent of this team. Part of that can be managed by Vlade (trading short term veterans that may be contributing to us winning a few more games for some potential) and part of that can be managed by Joerger (let the young potential show you they aren't going to play with a winning mindset before you choose to limit their minutes).
 
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#19
Reading is Fundamental!

that is what has been promised. That is what the moves are about. That is what the culture change is about. That is what DeMarcus is singing onto. Not a rebuild. Not a kindergarten. Not "The Process". He's signing back with a coach and GM and even owner not accustomed to losing who have told him he gets to win if he stays. Not when he's 30. Not when the kids discover they have hair down there. But soon. Next season I would imagine. And they're going to chase it this season. because chasing it is culture training for the whole organization jut like getting your ass whooped in a footrace is training for when you finally pull ahead in the next one.

People need to get this through their heads:

We don't quit.
We don't concede defeat.
We compete every game (or nearly).

These are essential principles and the culture change envisioned. Its at least as important as one more player. And it doesn't easily admit kids or development and certainly not tanking. WE DON'T CONCEDE DEFEAT. Joerger is determined to drum that into the franchise until it is second nature. Until we are Grindhouse West. Until we fight, because that's just what the Kings do. When that goal is accomplished, the winning wlil follow.
I'm sure you were saying this last spring, and watched Cousins rest for the road schedule down the stretch

Can those cultural elements be established playing our youth though?
 
#20
Reading is Fundamental!

that is what has been promised. That is what the moves are about. That is what the culture change is about. That is what DeMarcus is singing onto. Not a rebuild. Not a kindergarten. Not "The Process". He's signing back with a coach and GM and even owner not accustomed to losing who have told him he gets to win if he stays. Not when he's 30. Not when the kids discover they have hair down there. But soon. Next season I would imagine. And they're going to chase it this season. because chasing it is culture training for the whole organization jut like getting your ass whooped in a footrace is training for when you finally pull ahead in the next one.

People need to get this through their heads:

We don't quit.
We don't concede defeat.
We compete every game (or nearly).

These are essential principles and the culture change envisioned. Its at least as important as one more player. And it doesn't easily admit kids or development and certainly not tanking. WE DON'T CONCEDE DEFEAT. Joerger is determined to drum that into the franchise until it is second nature. Until we are Grindhouse West. Until we fight, because that's just what the Kings do. When that goal is accomplished, the winning wlil follow.
We also need a franchise PG, and this draft gives us as good a chance at finding one as any in recent memory. Hey I would love it if this team got scorching hot down the stretch to make a run, but right now we are four games back of loss column and our starting SG just went down. Also Cousins hasnt had to miss a single game due to injury. Knock on wood but theres always that chance he rolls an ankle and has to sit 4-5 games.
 

Bricklayer

Don't Make Me Use The Bat
#21
I'm sure you were saying this last spring, and watched Cousins rest for the road schedule down the stretch

Can those cultural elements be established playing our youth though?
I absolutely was not saying this last spring.

This is people smarts. You gotta know your people. Our people now. Last spring the whole organization was at odds. The coach was almost fired at the All Star break, he wanted to win to save his job. The organization wanted him gone. I am more than half convinced the players tanked what was a very winnable schedule because they wanted him gone and were protesting and worried he'd be retained if they won.

Completely different situation now. Now the organization is unified in goals from star player all the way to owner. And actually maybe even from roleplayers all the way to owner. The only people kinda not with the program are a certain subset of fans.

This isn't really a tactical thing or a skill thing at this point. The tactical arguments, the skill arguments, are both 100% correct and 100% missing the point. Its about building will to win. Anyone who has ever been in a fight knows its not always the biggest and strongest guy who wins (although it certainly helps). Its that tough mean S.O.B. who never quits and fights hard and dirty by second nature that you have to worry about. Size of the fight in the dog and all that.
 
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#22
8th seed right now means more to this franchise than anything.

This will be clear post trade window.

We are in win now mode and i wholeheartedly agree with it.
 
#23
I absolutely was not saying this last spring.

This is people smarts. You gotta know your people. Our people now. Last spring the whole organization was at odds. The coach was almost fired at the All Star break, he wanted to win to save his job. The organization wanted him gone. I am more than half convinced the players tanked what was a very winnable schedule because they wanted him gone and were protesting and worried he'd be retained if they won.

Completely different situation now. Now the organization is unified in goals from star player all the way to owner. And actually maybe even from roleplayers all the way to owner. The only people kinda not with the program are a certain subset of fans.

This isn't really a tactical thing or a skill thing at this point. The tactical arguments, the skill arguments, are both 100% correct and 100% missing the point. Its about building will to win. Anyone who has ever been in a fight knows its not always the biggest and strongest guy who wins (although it certainly helps). Its that tough mean S.O.B. who never quits and fights hard and dirty by second nature that you have to worry about. Size of the fight in the dog and all that.
Maybe. From what I gather of Boogie though he is a loyal and emotional cat, and as such maybe he understands what's in the best interest long term. Maybe he would intellectually understand, if he truly wants to be here, that WCS/Malachi/Skal etc are the dogs he will be riding with three years from now. And the other thing is how much of a talent difference is it from Afflalo Tolliver etc now? He's carrying the team now
 
#25
You can play hard, compete to the best of your abilities, and establish that mindset without losing the pick. That's what people don't seem to understand. Why does changing a 36 year old veteran playing hard to a 20 year old playing hard all of a sudden mean we're not building a "winning culture?"

If that 20 year old doesn't want to work hard and give it his all, sit his a** down like what we did with Cauley-Stein. You don't just blindly play young players and make them think their lack of motor is acceptable, but you also need to be smart about the current situation and the talent of this team. Part of that can be managed by Vlade (trading short term veterans that may be contributing to us winning a few more games for some potential) and part of that can be managed by Joerger (let the young potential show you they aren't going to play with a winning mindset before you choose to limit their minutes).
I couldn't agree more. This strange thinking, that you have to be a veteran to be a viable part of a so called "winning culture" is something I have a really hard time to understand.
Right now we have a worse record than the Nuggets, Trailblazers and Timberwolves and are on par with the Pelicans.
There are a few seasoned veterans on those teams, but most guys are in their athletic primes or younger.
So how exactly are we building a winning culture just because we are choosing to play aging veterans on short term deals? We certainly aren't winning more games, than those teams right now.
 
#26
I absolutely was not saying this last spring.

This is people smarts. You gotta know your people. Our people now. Last spring the whole organization was at odds. The coach was almost fired at the All Star break, he wanted to win to save his job. The organization wanted him gone. I am more than half convinced the players tanked what was a very winnable schedule because they wanted him gone and were protesting.

Completely different situation now. Now the organization is unified in goals from star player all the way to owner. And actually maybe even from roleplayers all the way to owner. The only people kinda not with the program are a certain subset of fans.

This isn't really a tactical thing or a skill thing at this point. The tactical arguments, the skill arguments, are both 100% correct and 100% missing the point. Its about building will to win. Anyone who has ever been in a fight knows its not always the biggest and strongest guy who wins (although it certainly helps). Its that tough mean S.O.B. who never quits and fights hard and dirty by second nature that you have to worry about. Size of the fight in the dog and all that.
And what makes you think you can't build that "will to win" with a team that will finish bottom 10? Keeping the pick and building a will to win are not mutually exclusive.

The biggest and strongest might not always win, but they win more often than not. Our strategy as an organization shouldn't rely on the exception. It should rely on the rule with hopes that our big, strong guy becomes a tough, mean S.O.B. who never quits and fights hard and dirty.

And what happens when we "build this will to win" and potentially have upwards of 8 players leave next year? Do we just "rebuild" our will to win? There's a lot of talk about avoiding a rebuild from a talent standpoint but it goes both ways with a "will to win."

And let's just play through your scenario and say we make the playoffs as a sub .500 team. Then what? What do we do next year? Gay & Barnes are more than likely going to opt in and McLemore will more than likely not get a QO. That leaves us with $7.1 mil in cap space next year with Collison (cap hold for bird rights), Temple, Afflalo, Richardson, Gay, Barnes, Tolliver, Cauley-Stein, Labissiere, Cousins, Koufos, & Papagiannis under contract. Bogdanovic will probably make around $8 mil/year next year so we're looking at being over the cap with that team. Where is the improvement going to come from?

Sure the kids might continue to progress and get better bumping us to maybe around a .500 team now, but where's the vision? Where's the future? Where's the path that leads us to becoming a top team in the West? I'm not even sure I see it if we keep our 1st this year let alone lose it, but at least we have a better shot with that additional asset.

I'm weary of plans that rely on big time FA acquisitions. Even my Wall/Bledsoe idea above is a stretch, and it's entirely based on the existing relationship they have with Cousins. Let's face it. Our best FA acquisition in recent memory was Vlade (a 10-8-3 C the year before). We haven't signed someone of the caliber of a Bledsoe or a Wall. Moving forward with a plan that relies on free agency as a team in Sacramento is risky at best and disastrous at worst. Trades & drafting. That's how small market teams become relevant. That's how the Kings become relevant.

The 2017 pick is a great chance to pick up a very valuable player/asset. Losing it with the intention of building a "will to win" is not a good excuse especially considering you can keep the pick and still build a will to win.
 
#27
I think this fan base needs a culture change. I have never seen such a losing organization fanbase have so many excuses for a losing team. This team hasn't seen the playoffs in 10 years and are on track for another losing season. This team is one of the worst in the league yet there are people who still want to play the washed up vets over the young guys.

The NBA is a business. If your goal is to reach the playoffs and that doesn't happen you don't give everyone on the team a trophy because they "played hard". Let's hold people accountable. Let's demand excellence. We shouldn't be happy we signed a bunch of aging vets. We shouldn't be happy our "stud" offseason signing in Temple is a bench role player on any other team.

Mostly everyone on this site is loyal to this team. Just because we're loyal doesn't mean we have to make excuses for this team. Some in the fanbase are now judging the season on if the team plays hard not wins and losses. Can anyone name a team in the NBA that doesn't play hard or fight until the end? The Nets, Wolves, 76er's, Sun's? Do any of those teams not play hard? Measuring this season success based on if they play hard or not is just giving this franchise more excuses.
 
#28
Reading is Fundamental!

That is what has been promised. That is what the moves are about. That is what the culture change is about. That is what DeMarcus is signing onto. Not a rebuild. Not a kindergarten. Not "The Process". He's signing back with a coach and GM and even owner not accustomed to losing who have told him he gets to win if he stays. Not when he's 30. Not when the kids discover they have hair down there. But soon. Next season I would imagine. And they're going to chase it this season. because chasing it is culture training for the whole organization jut like getting your ass whooped in a footrace is training for when you finally pull ahead in the next one.

People need to get this through their heads:

We don't quit.
We don't concede defeat.
We compete every game (or nearly).

These are essential principles and the culture change envisioned. Its at least as important as one more player. And it doesn't easily admit kids or development and certainly not tanking. WE DON'T CONCEDE DEFEAT. Joerger is determined to drum that into the franchise until it is second nature. Until we are Grindhouse West. Until we fight, because that's just what the Kings do. When that goal is accomplished, the winning wlil follow.
Slamson, where are your roller-blades? Repeat after me, I am not a Kings player, I am not a Kings player, I am not....
 
#29
Collison, Temple, and Koufos are the only legit rotation players. They are going to tank just by virtue of being a bad team. They compete, they seem to be together, and Cuz has somehow gotten even better. For the hell of it I'd like to see if they can hang on a little longer and make a run.

But this team is closer to the 4 seed than the playoffs, and you're delusional if you expect this team win anything now, or next year. They need talent BAD. And the draft is the easiest way to get assets.

So it's great that the whole organization has the unified goal of winning now. Organizational culture and all that jazz. I'll root for them to win, and be safe knowing that this team is just not good enough to lose its draft pick.
 
D

DC222

Guest
#30
This team doesn't win because of the talent level. Plain and simple. Very few FA voluntarily come here. We need to acquire talent through the draft or trade. We have not done much of either. Unfortunately the team has few assets for a trade. Thus we need better drafts. Unfortunately we sabotaged ourselves w philly trade. The organization wants the 8 seed bc they would look foolish if the swap w philly happens. Honestly, I realize the 8 seed is very unlikely to happen and while most teams should tank I kinda agree we shouldn't BeCuz the FO messed up big time w the philly swap. I tired of the team (the FO)looking stupid