Defense - is it players or coaching?

#1
I'm looking at the basketball-reference.com DRtg which is basically an estimation of how many points a player gives up per 100 possessions.

A couple of anomalies stick out with this stat. I'm not sure of the legitimacy of it, but these points are interesting.



Out of all the players who have received a good amount of minutes the last 3 years, Cousins has had the best DRtg each and every year except his rookie season where he tied with Dalembert for the best.

The two worst seasons defensively for Landry have been in Sacramento. Sacramento is also the only time in his career when he's given up more points than he's scored.

Beno Udrih gave up 10 more points per 100 possessions with us on average than he did in San Antonio.

Samuel Dalembert's worst defensive season was in Sacramento.

Ron Artests worst defensive seasons on average were in Sacramento.

Francisco Garcia played the best defense of his career since his rookie season once he got traded to the Rockets.

On average John Salmons worst defensive seasons have been in Sacramento and they spiked way down from Milwaukee to Sacramento.

Chuck Hayes two worst defensive seasons by far have been in Sacramento.

Thomas, Fredette and Thornton are our worst defenders the last few years.

This is all according to the DRtg stat.

Almost all our key players from the glory years played their best defensive basketball as soon as they got to Sacramento in the late 90's and early 2000's. The stat shows that Christie, Webber and Vlade were our best defensive starters each year with Peja and then Bibby lagging behind. In 03-04 the defensive stats get shot to hell for everyone. We gained Brad Miller and Songalia but no longer had Clark and Pollard. Webber also only played 23 games but was still our best defensive player according to the stat. Whats the reasoning for this? Adelman's coaching? The gain of two soft bigs and the loss of two defenders? The players getting old and injured?

This poses the argument, do we need a bunch of good defensive players or just a coach who can teach defense? According to that stat, known good defenders in Hayes, Dalembert and Salmons have all been worse in Sacramento than their past teams. Basically almost every player that has joined this team in the last 10 years has had a significant drop in their defensive rating. Does that mean that the coaching was bad or that the players around them were so bad that they were getting scored on more often than they used to? I think our front office has too much faith in Malone's defensive coaching ability. It seems like they think he can coach defense upon anyone, so they're looking to pile in a bunch of offensive players on the idea that they already know how to score, they just need Malone to teach them how to play team defense. I personally think this is an idea of failure since the stats seem to lean toward good defensive players being much more important than defensive coaching.
 
#2
Defense is effort and discipline all day every day. BUT that's not to say you don't need the players who are capable of executing it. Maybe Ron Ron was past his prime his season with us OR maybe he played with B.Miller/Kmart/Beno/Old Bibby/Moore Same logic goes with Hayes & Dally. Lets give our new FO a little time before call for their head because NOBODY on the internet knows what the opening night roster is going to look like.
 
#3
Defense at its core is about communication, effort, discipline, knowledge of player tendencies. You can have 5 middle of the road defenders play well together if they are disciplined and help each other out. If you have an individual that is able to defend 1 on 1 at an elite level, or block/alter shots at an elite level, you create more room for error for your team defense. For instance the Spurs are a very good to great defensive team, and Leonard is really the only elite/potentially elite 1 on 1 defender in the starting lineup. Duncan is a great team defender though because of his great understanding of the game and defensive awareness. Ginobli and Parker are average NBA defenders.
 

Bricklayer

Don't Make Me Use The Bat
#4
Look at it this way. Every player has a certain level of defensive ability. And the really dedicated defenders carry most of that with them, because its what they focus on. But a good defensive coach can make all 12 of his players better. He can't make Beno Udrih into Rajon Rondo, but he can make Beno Udrih into the best Beno Udrih he can be defensively. You multiply that by 12 players, and a great defensive coach is likely more key to strong defense than a single great defensive player.

However, give a great defensive coach a bunch of defensive lemons, and he can still only make bad defensive players average. Now give a great defensive coach a scattering of great defensive players...well then you get the teams that seriously lock you up. Think of it as a classic logic square. You have 4 choices:

[table="width: 500, class: grid, align: left"]
[tr]
[td][/td]
[td]Good Defensive Coach[/td]
[td]Bad Defensive Coach[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]Good Defensive Players[/td]
[td]Great Defense[/td]
[td] Ok Defense[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]Bad Defensive Players[/td]
[td]Ok Defense[/td]
[td]Lousy Defense[/td]
[/tr]
[/table]
 
#6
Bruce Bowen. Nothing particularly special about his size or athleticism yet he made all defensive teams because of his extremely pesky on ball defense.
 
#7
Dtrg is only useful to compare players on the same team. It doesn't work to compare players on different teams because of the way it's calculated.
 

Gary

All-Star
#8
Look at it this way. Every player has a certain level of defensive ability. And the really dedicated defenders carry most of that with them, because its what they focus on. But a good defensive coach can make all 12 of his players better. He can't make Beno Udrih into Rajon Rondo, but he can make Beno Udrih into the best Beno Udrih he can be defensively. You multiply that by 12 players, and a great defensive coach is likely more key to strong defense than a single great defensive player.

However, give a great defensive coach a bunch of defensive lemons, and he can still only make bad defensive players average. Now give a great defensive coach a scattering of great defensive players...well then you get the teams that seriously lock you up. Think of it as a classic logic square. You have 4 choices:

[table="width: 500, class: grid, align: left"]
[tr]
[td][/td]
[td]Good Defensive Coach[/td]
[td]Bad Defensive Coach[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]Good Defensive Players[/td]
[td]Great Defense[/td]
[td] Ok Defense[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]Bad Defensive Players[/td]
[td]Ok Defense[/td]
[td]Lousy Defense[/td]
[/tr]
[/table]
I agree with this. Also individual defenders does not = good team defenders, but that probably falls under coaching being that he's supposed to let them know when to rotate, or how to guard the player without the ball.
 
#11
I agree with this. Also individual defenders does not = good team defenders, but that probably falls under coaching being that he's supposed to let them know when to rotate, or how to guard the player without the ball.
Absolutely true. If you read the book ":07 Seconds or Less" about the Phoenix Suns in the year that Amare was hurt and they had the war with the Lakers in the playoffs (when Raja Bell clotheslined Kobe).

They had an interesting discussion about Raja Bell being an outstanding individual defender but a poor team defender because he so often failed to rotate. They said that Raja Bell was so obsessed with not letting his man score or get free that it actually hurt him as a team defender because he often stuck to his man no matter what and missed rotations.

A guy like Shawn Marion on the other hand was at the time a very good individual defender and a phenomenal team defender that madeup for the short-comings of guys like Steve Nash. A long athletic SF like that (think Tayshaun Prince, Deng, etc.) can really help mask the deficiencies of some of the poor individual defenders.

It's why a guy like Iguodala would have been a perfect fit for the Kings but really Iggy is a perfect fit and good all-around defender for just about any team.

He's getting older but a guy like Andrei Kirilenko that flies around and rotates so well off the ball could really help the Kings a lot. Kirilenko in a good system I believe would suddenly make some of the poor defenders not look so poor just by covering for their mistakes.
 
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#12
Absolutely true. If you read the book ":07 Seconds or Less" about the Phoenix Suns in the year that Amare was hurt and they had the war with the Lakers in the playoffs (when Raja Bell clotheslined Kobe).

They had an interesting discussion about Raja Bell being an outstanding individual defender but a poor team defender because he so often failed to rotate. They said that Raja Bell was so obsessed with not letting his man score or get free that it actually hurt him as a team defender because he often stuck to his man no matter what and missed rotations.

A guy like Shawn Marion on the other hand was at the time a very good individual defender and a phenomenal team defender that madeup for the short-comings of guys like Steve Nash. A long athletic SF like that (think Tayshaun Prince, Deng, etc.) can really help mask the deficiencies of some of the poor individual defenders.

It's why a guy like Iguodala would have been a perfect fit for the Kings but really Iggy is a perfect fit and good all-around defender for just about any team.

He's getting older but a guy like Andrei Kirilenko that flies around and rotates so well off the ball could really help the Kings a lot. Kirilenko in a good system I believe would suddenly make some of the poor defenders not look so poor just by covering for their mistakes.
Totally agree. With Malone changing the total atmosphere here in Sacramento we could have actually had a top defensive team. Evans, JT, Iggy, and MLM (per college) were all strong individual defenders. If they played together for a while and learned each other's defensive strengths and weaknesses they would know without giving it a second thought what they needed to do in every situation. After a year or two it would be second nature and the team would probably be a top 5 defensive team.

I am interested on how Malone is going to bring this team together, but I also am interested in what the actual makeup will be too.
 
#13
"defense" is a philosophy as much as it is anything else, because it takes a concerted effort on the part of an entire organization to build a team that plays exceptional defense. you need an owner that can stomach what is likely to be a slower, less popular style of play. you need a GM who knows how to evaluate defensive personnel and, more importantly, who is interested in pursuing defensive personnel. you need a head coach who emphasizes defense, commits to his schemes, and holds his players accountable. and then you need a team that buys into the coach's emphasis on defense, whether the players are defensively-oriented or not...

now, if you want a mediocre defense, any one of those above factors can be off the table. maybe even any two of the above factors. however, if three or more of those factors are off the table, then you're very likely to be a poor defensive team. in the last seven seasons, the kings didn't have a single factor working in their favor. they had a cynical ownership group who was only after the fan's dollar. they had a GM practically sleeping on the job. they had head coaches without a lick of defensive pedigree. and they had teams without a shred of useful defensive capability. the result was at the bottom of the barrel in every major defensive category (though the kings' rebounding was exceptional during the one season they started demarcus cousins and samuel dalembert alongside each other)...

right now, it's not clear to me that vivek ranadive truly values defensive player personnel. it's certainly clear to me that pete d'allesandro doesn't value defensive player personnel. and while i have to imagine that mike malone would prefer more defensive personnel than he's been given to work with thus far, he did manage to coax considerable defensive effort from a golden state warriors team that was at a lack for defensive-personnel, as well. though it should be noted that the warriors' young talent had defensive potential that malone was able to harness, and the warriors' moves to acquire andrew bogut and andre iguodala very clearly represent a focus on defense at the highest levels of the organization. their improvement on defense was no accident. the franchise demanded it...

considering that PDA has yet to make a similar kind of move, the kings' only hope is that mike malone can coax defensive effort from a kings team with tremendous defensive weakness all across the roster-at-present. and, unfortunately, they traded away one of the few kings with true defensive potential in tyreke evans. to make matters worse, they brought back an unathletic PG in the trade without much in the way of defensive potential in grievis vasquez. and, after signing another player without much in the way of defensive potential in carl landry, now the kings' front office is considering signing a player like monta ellis, who's me-first attitude is entirely counter to any strategy for team defense...

in my estimation, PDA simply is stabbing his head coach in the back. a rookie head coach with a defensive pedigree was already at a disadvantage to coach a team-in-flux like the kings with a defensively-weak cornerstone talent like demarcus cousins. but PDA has essentially tied malone's hands behind his back, blindfolded him, and shoved him into the unknown with a-hope-and-a-prayer. the mandate is to improve the defense, and vivek ranadive did mike malone no favors by hiring offensively-oriented pete d'allesandro, and d'allesandro has done malone no favors by subsequently favoring defensively-weak talent. it is not what i expected to see from the new regime after all the talk of improving the team's cut-rate defense...
 
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#14
Absolutely true. If you read the book ":07 Seconds or Less" about the Phoenix Suns in the year that Amare was hurt and they had the war with the Lakers in the playoffs (when Raja Bell clotheslined Kobe).

They had an interesting discussion about Raja Bell being an outstanding individual defender but a poor team defender because he so often failed to rotate. They said that Raja Bell was so obsessed with not letting his man score or get free that it actually hurt him as a team defender because he often stuck to his man no matter what and missed rotations.

A guy like Shawn Marion on the other hand was at the time a very good individual defender and a phenomenal team defender that madeup for the short-comings of guys like Steve Nash. A long athletic SF like that (think Tayshaun Prince, Deng, etc.) can really help mask the deficiencies of some of the poor individual defenders.

It's why a guy like Iguodala would have been a perfect fit for the Kings but really Iggy is a perfect fit and good all-around defender for just about any team.

He's getting older but a guy like Andrei Kirilenko that flies around and rotates so well off the ball could really help the Kings a lot. Kirilenko in a good system I believe would suddenly make some of the poor defenders not look so poor just by covering for their mistakes.
Excellent point. Chuck Hayes is another great individual defender. If someone is posting him up, there is a very small chance they'll wind up with a basket. He'll ever slap the ball out of their hands before they can make a move or he'll have them so off balance and so far away from the hoop that their shot has almost no shot of going in. But his team defense is lacking. If he's forced to try and disrupt the layup of a driving player or do a quick switch if Demarcus gets beat, he's almost useless with his size and speed.