Dave Joerger on Chris Vernon Podcast

#3
D'Antoni???
Would you have us take HIM over Joerger? :eek:
I wouldn't. No way.
It's a definite no-brainer really, tbh.
Umm the Rockets have won 40 games already......they won 41 all of last year and are the third best team in the west and he has molded James Harden into the MVP favorite. I love Joerger but I can take off my purple colored shades and admit that D'Antoni has done a better job.
 
#7
Umm the Rockets have won 40 games already......they won 41 all of last year and are the third best team in the west and he has molded James Harden into the MVP favorite. I love Joerger but I can take off my purple colored shades and admit that D'Antoni has done a better job.
It's like players--you've got to judge coaches over the long term not just on 2/3rds of a season. Their record may not show it, but the team looks like they are coming together. I think if we revisit this conversation 3 years down the road, Joerger is gong to have the Kings in as good if not better place than D'Antoni has the Rockets (although they aren't really a good team or situation to compare to).
 
#9
It's like players--you've got to judge coaches over the long term not just on 2/3rds of a season. Their record may not show it, but the team looks like they are coming together. I think if we revisit this conversation 3 years down the road, Joerger is gong to have the Kings in as good if not better place than D'Antoni has the Rockets (although they aren't really a good team or situation to compare to).
D'Antoni would have been a train wreck of a coach here. We are not built like that. That free wheeling offense was a feature of Karl and all it did was help rondo
Obviously I cant predict the future, all I said was to this point D'Antoni has done a better job, And Yes I realize D'Antoni wouldn't have worked out here with this roster, thats not even something I said. Its not an attack on Joerger at all hes done great too.

In terms of fit (coach to roster) the Rockets and Kings were 1 and 2 in coaching hires. With how things have gone in the past Ill take that any day of the week.
 
#10
The only thing, that sounded a bit weird for me is his preference to play DMC at the PF spot. Smaller, quicker players actually do a decent job defending Cuz and on the other side of the floor we are at a disadvantage because our 260lbs brute needs to chase guys around at the 3 point line. I personally like the smaller lineup with Tolliver at the 4 and Cuz at the 5. My hope going forward is, that Willie or Skal can develop into the big, mobile PF with a jumpshot, which would fit perfectly next to DMC.
I don't think playing Cuz alongside a traditional center is a great idea.
 
G

glassman

Guest
#11
The only thing, that sounded a bit weird for me is his preference to play DMC at the PF spot. Smaller, quicker players actually do a decent job defending Cuz and on the other side of the floor we are at a disadvantage because our 260lbs brute needs to chase guys around at the 3 point line. I personally like the smaller lineup with Tolliver at the 4 and Cuz at the 5. My hope going forward is, that Willie or Skal can develop into the big, mobile PF with a jumpshot, which would fit perfectly next to DMC.
I don't think playing Cuz alongside a traditional center is a great idea.
It's a downright STUPID plan.... freaking dave!!! Man I wanna like this guy... I do...but then I hear him talk or I just see cousins floating around the perimeter to many straight trips down the floor. I can't handle it... it's so freaking dumb. IF Joerger just figures out how to use Cousins correctly and consistently we would be a automatic playoff team... as is...

Joerger man... I'm with James ham and Aaron bruski he is ridiculously stubborn about dumb things
 
#12
I dont like Cuz at the 4 all that much either but 5s take a beating in this league and since Cuz is pretty much our entire offense I think its fine to have Koufus out there for 14-19 mins a night to bang down low and grab a few boards. We may not see it since its hard to tell on TV but being the lone big managing the paint takes its toll physically. If you have noticed Cuz has been much healthier this year than in years past. Plus for the majority of the game we go small anyway. The key is being able to play multiple ways which we can do.

As we saw last year you cant go full time small or full time big in this league any more instead you must have the capability to be adequate at both.

Besides, theres only a few elite starting stretch 4s who Cuz can't handle but for the most part I think he holds his own just fine for the few minutes hes asked to play the 4.

The biggest threat to starting big is teams raining threes and Joerger makes defending threes a key point in the podcast, the tone and sense you get from the podcast is that he gets it, and that is reassuring.
 
G

glassman

Guest
#13
I dont like Cuz at the 4 all that much either but 5s take a beating in this league and since Cuz is pretty much our entire offense I think its fine to have Koufus out there for 14-19 mins a night to bang down low and grab a few boards. We may not see it since its hard to tell on TV but being the lone big managing the paint takes its toll physically. If you have noticed Cuz has been much healthier this year than in years past. Plus for the majority of the game we go small anyway. The key is being able to play multiple ways which we can do.

As we saw last year you cant go full time small or full time big in this league any more instead you must have the capability to be adequate at both.

Besides, theres only a few elite starting stretch 4s who Cuz can't handle but for the most part I think he holds his own just fine for the few minutes hes asked to play the 4.

The biggest threat to starting big is teams raining threes and Joerger makes defending threes a key point in the podcast, the tone and sense you get from the podcast is that he gets it, and that is reassuring.
We agree but I will argue that while we think 5's take a beating today... we should remember that in the 80's and 90's and so on.... it was murder ball... as much as we'd like to think it's bad... it's really not that bad. The league is pretty foul sensitive today. Cousins need to just go to work and pound..
 
#15
I dont like Cuz at the 4 all that much either but 5s take a beating in this league and since Cuz is pretty much our entire offense I think its fine to have Koufus out there for 14-19 mins a night to bang down low and grab a few boards. We may not see it since its hard to tell on TV but being the lone big managing the paint takes its toll physically. If you have noticed Cuz has been much healthier this year than in years past. Plus for the majority of the game we go small anyway. The key is being able to play multiple ways which we can do.

As we saw last year you cant go full time small or full time big in this league any more instead you must have the capability to be adequate at both.

Besides, theres only a few elite starting stretch 4s who Cuz can't handle but for the most part I think he holds his own just fine for the few minutes hes asked to play the 4.

The biggest threat to starting big is teams raining threes and Joerger makes defending threes a key point in the podcast, the tone and sense you get from the podcast is that he gets it, and that is reassuring.
I used to think, that this is one part of a possible explanation for the Cuz+KK lineups. The other part would be potential foul trouble as the lone big, who needs to defend the rim.
But that's not what Joerger said in this interview. He very openly declared, that he likes Cuz as the PF, because he thinks nobody can guard him at PF.
And that's not something I'm buying. In a Cuz+KK pairing Cousins is usually defended by the best defender out there. Some teams defend him with a big man. Some teams opt for a smaller, quicker guy harassing him on his drives. But all teams hide the defensively weaker part of their front court on KK. KK isn't a guy, who can abuse people on the offensive end. So where is the offensive benefit of the KK+Cuz lineup? On the glass? Kosta grabs 1.6 ORB this year, so it's save to say, that he isn't pounding the opposition on the glass.
Ultimately Joergers preferation of DMC at PF only makes sense, when we would be able to pair him with another big able to power through weaker defenders. That would be the Grizzlies blueprint of 2 years ago. And barring a Willie explosion, who can guard the perimeter much more effectively than DMC, I'm certainly not convinced, that this is a promising vision for this team.
 
#16
I used to think, that this is one part of a possible explanation for the Cuz+KK lineups. The other part would be potential foul trouble as the lone big, who needs to defend the rim.
But that's not what Joerger said in this interview. He very openly declared, that he likes Cuz as the PF, because he thinks nobody can guard him at PF.
And that's not something I'm buying. In a Cuz+KK pairing Cousins is usually defended by the best defender out there. Some teams defend him with a big man. Some teams opt for a smaller, quicker guy harassing him on his drives. But all teams hide the defensively weaker part of their front court on KK. KK isn't a guy, who can abuse people on the offensive end. So where is the offensive benefit of the KK+Cuz lineup? On the glass? Kosta grabs 1.6 ORB this year, so it's save to say, that he isn't pounding the opposition on the glass.
Ultimately Joergers preferation of DMC at PF only makes sense, when we would be able to pair him with another big able to power through weaker defenders. That would be the Grizzlies blueprint of 2 years ago. And barring a Willie explosion, who can guard the perimeter much more effectively than DMC, I'm certainly not convinced, that this is a promising vision for this team.
Did he say that he likes KK as 5?

If he sees Cuz as 4, with long term picture on mind (that coach said is his priority, not playoff) he will groom him to develop as 4.

Somebody has to play 5 then, and KK happened to be the only real 5 on the roster. 19 min/game show he is not a center of choice but necessity.

Drafting Papa now makes more sense.
 
#17
Did he say that he likes KK as 5?

If he sees Cuz as 4, with long term picture on mind (that coach said is his priority, not playoff) he will groom him to develop as 4.

Somebody has to play 5 then, and KK happened to be the only real 5 on the roster. 19 min/game show he is not a center of choice but necessity.

Drafting Papa now makes more sense.
No he didn't, so your interpretation seems to be on point. I just don't think this is a good thing. I don't care, if we possibly have a skilled center in the future next to DMC. I personally don't believe in the twin towers approach anymore. This is 2017 not 1997. Therefore Joergers comments feel a bit weird for me.
 

Mr. S£im Citrus

Doryphore of KingsFans.com
Staff member
#18
No he didn't, so your interpretation seems to be on point. I just don't think this is a good thing. I don't care, if we possibly have a skilled center in the future next to DMC. I personally don't believe in the twin towers approach anymore. This is 2017 not 1997. Therefore Joergers comments feel a bit weird for me.
The "twin towers approach" only doesn't work in the sense that no team in the league has two high-level mobile bigs on their roster. Let some GM manage to get Cousins and Embiid on the same roster (or Cousins and Davis, or Cousins and Towns, or Davis and Towns, or Davis and Jokic, or Towns and Embiid, or Towns and Jokic...), and then come back and tell me how the "twin towers approach" don't work.
 
#19
I think Joeger prefers Cuz as his PF because a) he sees him as a Zach Randolph type, and b) because that will (presumably) extend his playing career. I say "presumably" because the NBA has changed and I'm not sure that today's Centers get beat up as much as they used to.
 
Z

Zublocka

Guest
#20
The "twin towers approach" only doesn't work in the sense that no team in the league has two high-level mobile bigs on their roster. Let some GM manage to get Cousins and Embiid on the same roster (or Cousins and Davis, or Cousins and Towns, or Davis and Towns, or Davis and Jokic, or Towns and Embiid, or Towns and Jokic...), and then come back and tell me how the "twin towers approach" don't work.
It worked very well with Pau-Bynum and Pau-Odom. Very much correct on the twin towers approach works. You just need the correct pieces.
 
#21
We agree but I will argue that while we think 5's take a beating today... we should remember that in the 80's and 90's and so on.... it was murder ball... as much as we'd like to think it's bad... it's really not that bad. The league is pretty foul sensitive today. Cousins need to just go to work and pound..
I'm glad Joerger and crew do not see it your way:D If it was your body being pounded by two and three defenders you make be talking different, if you could talk:eek:
 
#22
I'm good with DMC at the 4 as long as WCS is the 5. Twin Towers will always have a place in the game because when you dial it in its tough to beat. Even rookie DMC looked promising with Dally. What we need right now is all hands on deck and run through the finishing line.
 
G

glassman

Guest
#23
I'm glad Joerger and crew do not see it your way:D If it was your body being pounded by two and three defenders you make be talking different, if you could talk:eek:
This NBA is waaay softer over all than in the past. Jeez plus look unlike the years past where no one on this team could hit a 3 if their life depended on it...we actually are a little better now...

if there there's 2 let alone 3 people on Cousins... I'm not advocating him having to pound through them!!!! Just like he's been doing here and there.... his passing is brilliant and he can find the open guys...

But he has to get double/triple teamed to collapse the defense first man!

It's easy basketball if he just gets down low...

It's too bad Joerger and crew are so stupid not to see that.
 

VF21

Super Moderator Emeritus
SME
#24
This NBA is waaay softer over all than in the past. Jeez plus look unlike the years past where no one on this team could hit a 3 if their life depended on it...we actually are a little better now...

if there there's 2 let alone 3 people on Cousins... I'm not advocating him having to pound through them!!!! Just like he's been doing here and there.... his passing is brilliant and he can find the open guys...

But he has to get double/triple teamed to collapse the defense first man!

It's easy basketball if he just gets down low...

It's too bad Joerger and crew are so stupid not to see that.
At this point, your ridiculous hatred of "Joerger and crew" is just trolling. Did you even look at the results of the poll? If you tried even once to view Joerger objectively, I think you might realize just how much of a difference he's making with our team. And I say that with all seriousness.
 
Last edited:
#25
Umm the Rockets have won 40 games already......they won 41 all of last year and are the third best team in the west and he has molded James Harden into the MVP favorite. I love Joerger but I can take off my purple colored shades and admit that D'Antoni has done a better job.
Whatever shades you put on after taking off your purple colored ones certainly hasn't made things any clearer for you.

D'Antoni took over a team that won 45, 54, 56 and 41 games the past 4 seasons and made the playoffs every season James Harden has been on the roster. It's not even a forgone conclusion that the Rockets will surpass what they accomplished under McHale when they won 56 games and reached the conference finals 2 seasons ago. So has he really done a better job? Seems to me he's just got the Rockets to achieve to a level they already had under McHale.

Joeger, on the other hand, has less to work with and took over a team without a winning track record and has them appearing to be on the upswing despite a plethora of injuries to key players.
Furthermore, does anybody not believe Joerger could have the Rockets winning a similar amount of games had he taken over that program instead?

You're giving far too much credit to a coach whose track history is average. When he has an exceptionally talented roster, his teams perform well in the regular season (PHX, HOU) but when his teams lack depth of talent like the Kings (NY, LA), his record reflects it.
 
#26
Whatever shades you put on after taking off your purple colored ones certainly hasn't made things any clearer for you.

D'Antoni took over a team that won 45, 54, 56 and 41 games the past 4 seasons and made the playoffs every season James Harden has been on the roster. It's not even a forgone conclusion that the Rockets will surpass what they accomplished under McHale when they won 56 games and reached the conference finals 2 seasons ago. So has he really done a better job? Seems to me he's just got the Rockets to achieve to a level they already had under McHale.

Joeger, on the other hand, has less to work with and took over a team without a winning track record and has them appearing to be on the upswing despite a plethora of injuries to key players.
Furthermore, does anybody not believe Joerger could have the Rockets winning a similar amount of games had he taken over that program instead?

You're giving far too much credit to a coach whose track history is average. When he has an exceptionally talented roster, his teams perform well in the regular season (PHX, HOU) but when his teams lack depth of talent like the Kings (NY, LA), his record reflects it.
Ok buddy, We can just agree to disagree. Maybe will see whose right when coach of the year voting comes in.

To this point they are far exceeding expectations and the Kings are not, based solely on facts/wins.

How many guys from the 41 win team last year are still on the roster? Most of them, and the roster is not exactly stacked, same amount of all stars as the Kings.

I really dont care about D'Antonis track record before the rockets as thats irrelevant to the point that I was trying to make which is the Improvement in wins THIS YEAR over last, you know the number that matter more than "appears to be on the upswing". The Rockets have jumped 5 spots in the WC playoff standings barring the injury excuse have the kings done that yet? I also dont care about hypotheticals that we can never prove such as would Joerger do better with them or would D'Antoni do better here. Thats fantasy land, Im talking about wins improvement and what each guy has been able to do with their respective roster. As i stated Jorger has done a great job just not better than D'Antoni and thats fine.

I get the Joerger love we havent seen a real NBA coach here in a while but to say that hes done a better job than D'Antoni is purple shades logic to me.
 
#27
The "twin towers approach" only doesn't work in the sense that no team in the league has two high-level mobile bigs on their roster. Let some GM manage to get Cousins and Embiid on the same roster (or Cousins and Davis, or Cousins and Towns, or Davis and Towns, or Davis and Jokic, or Towns and Embiid, or Towns and Jokic...), and then come back and tell me how the "twin towers approach" don't work.
You know I instantly wanted to reply to your post stating how unrealistic any of those pairings is in todays NBA, because no GM could be that dumb to give up one of those guys, without getting something of major value in return and how no team has the pieces to aquire one of those bigs while keeping the other in place.
Than once again #Kangz happened. Now we will find out soon, if you are right. :mad::(:(:(:(:(