Dave Joerger and a major concern

Discussion in 'Kings Rap' started by sactownfan, Nov 24, 2016.

  1. sactownfan

    sactownfan Guest

    OK... without question Dave has a ton a great qualities.

    Pros:
    Made a point to earn Cousins trust and support (HUGE)
    Has a great demeanor doesn't call out players or embarrass players via media
    Better offensive system
    Draws up great set plays
    Preaches defensive and has installed a much more effective defensive system
    Theres probably more but those are the basic pros

    HOWEVER.....

    HIS ROTATIONS HAVE SINGLE HANDILY COST THIS TEAM IN EVERY LOSS

    I'm extremely concerned about how awful his feel for game with the roster and personnel is.

    In his defense .... Theres a high amount...8 experienced mid level talent veterans on this roster. Then theres Gay, Cousins, Collision our big 3... and the non factors WCS +rookies. So He has waaay more options to mix and match with the big 3. So i get that it could take a min to do that. BUT.... some of these changes seemed SO OBVIOUS TO EVERYONE EXCEPT DAVE!!!

    For example not starting KK and Cousins together... That was obvious immediately to everyone....it doesn't take a brain surgeon to see that. YET joerger DUG IN and doubled down on forcing that to work for waaaay too long.

    This is a troubling pattern... He seems to be pretty stubborn and hardheaded when it comes to making adjustments and also seeing that things are not working...

    FINALLY last 2 games he started Collison, or started over Lawson (who's just been awful at scoring until the last 2 gms)... he also took KK out of the starters. and FINALLY WE DIDN'T GET BLOWN OUT TO START THE GAME.

    Just seemed like the KK move came so late... and same with starting Collision... was there really ever a question that he wasn't gonna be the starter????

    NOT to mention this casspi situation.... again seems like the coach is being stubborn and hardheaded at an alarming level... Barnes and affalo are at time a mess and Casspi can at least spot up 3pt shoot, defend, cut and drive!!!! WTF!!!!! if Barnes or affalo are not clicking (which happens) freaking go with Casspi!!! makes no sense to me how there have been times those guys clearly weren't bringing the A game and Casspi could have at least play a min or two... seems silly to just bench him totally
  2. VF21

    VF21 #KingsFansForever Staff Member Contributor

    Not sure about the timing of this post...

    We've won the past two games, primarily because Joerger is willing to make adjustments and adapt. (The whole Casspi thing has its own thread already, so I won't address it.)

    Joerger is getting to know the team after starting the season with a lot of games on the road. Until we got this home stretch, dedicated practices simply weren't possible.

    I'm very happy with what I'm seeing right now. I think you're reacting to old news instead of the current scenario.
    ppine, Blob, c-webb1s#1 and 14 others like this.
  3. Spike

    Spike Well-Known Member

    Yeah. Especially not playing DC during the first 8 games!

    Seriously though, if he's so stubborn, why did he make a change? To me, he had an idea on paper of what he thought would work, gave it a run, and decided it didn't. He's consistently made good halftime adjustments given the personnel. I dunno, man. I don't see coaching as the issue.
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  4. sactownfan

    sactownfan Guest

    Wow seriously dude???

    Ok the fact anyone is jumping on me speaks volumes to how fragile u all are from one win to the next, and why we see so many "SKY IS FALLING POSTS AFTER ONE LOSS"

    Look... I'm not saying he's not adjusting!!!!! So wake up.... and actually use ur brain ...

    It's alarming how the extremely effective role player... Casspi... has been relegated to nothing. Reporters that follow the team don't understand it... I don't understand it. No one but coach seems to think that it makes any sense. That's a problem. Cause Casspi good fit or not could bring more than Barnes and affalo one some nights. But just straight up... the coach won't play him? That's not for the good of the team. Seems like some kinda childish feud happening here.

    The collision thing was late to the party

    The kofuos on the bench was late happening...

    This post was about the amount of losses it takes for this coach to do what's pretty freaking obvious.... so again...for those special ones here.... it's not that coach isn't able to Or willing to adjust. Just that he seems to be stubborn and hardheaded when it comes to making changes organically as needed.
  5. parker

    parker Well-Known Member

    I'm guessing he thought that Collison needed a few games to get in game rhythm and shape.

    It's disingenuous to say that all the losses are due to his rotations because much more goes into a W than the rotations.

    He's also trying to establish consistent roles and that can't happen if you are making frequent changes when the season just started.

    Overall, I am satisfied with the job he has done so far. A couple of close losses were demoralizing but I attribute those more to growing pains and not some systematic problem with the coach being hard headed or stubborn.
  6. Suicide King

    Suicide King Well-Known Member

    On the flip side, if changes are made too quickly Coach would be too knee-jerk. Can't be perfect all the time. He wanted to try a specific starting lineup, it was not working, he adjusted. I really don't see any stubbornness at all.As far as Casspi goes only they know for sure. Hell maybe only the coach does. He was hired to make those kinds of decisions.

    The fact that we are not contending for a title this season adds a lot of wrinkles to things for the coach. It would actually be easier in my opinion if we were. Whose to say we aren't getting someone minutes with the intention of showcasing that player for a trade. So many things that could be going on we don't know about.

    And the quote from Spike was obviously made in jest.
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  7. Kingfanpaul

    Kingfanpaul Well-Known Member

    It's been 15 games. I think he should be given a little time to figure out his rotation. Joerger needed to see what he's got and who works best together on the court at the right time. Plus, as already mentioned, Collison missed 8 games. Let's not expect perfection right out of the gate. He's making adjustments and I think he's starting to figure it out. Patience is the key.
    dude12 and VF21 like this.
  8. Fora Dragi

    Fora Dragi Guest

    Pretty sure it isn't all or even much on him. How many shots did he miss? How many turnovers or fouls has he had?
    Tetsujin likes this.
  9. pshn80

    pshn80 Well-Known Member

    Again, can't believe his initial post. Joerger, in my eyes is not doing just fine, he's doing great. I have no problem with the "Koufos debacle", nor the "Casspi debacle" nor any other "huge problems" with his rotations.
    c-webb1s#1, Pacboy, dude12 and 2 others like this.
  10. VF21

    VF21 #KingsFansForever Staff Member Contributor

    Sorry but these posts are typical of all too many of your fly-by comments. You make vague general statements with lots of CAPS but little logic.

    Dave Joerger and the Kings are a work in progress. You see "some kinda childish feud" when you have less than nothing to substantiate that statement. You resort to insults and innuendos when people don't agree with you.

    Feel free to judge Joerger after less than one month as our head coach. If you don't mind, however, I think I'll wait just a tad longer before I decide he's stubborn and hardheaded.
    steelevt, Double-K, upinsmoke and 4 others like this.
  11. Big Cuz 15

    Big Cuz 15 Well-Known Member

    he ran the KK + cousins front line a fair amount. he got to see it against various teams. some times had front lines that it would work decently against and others poorly. he got to see it so he knows what to expect now. nothing wrong with that since he acquired a new team and lots of players that have not played together before.

    we still have til midseason to see improvement. it looks like they are starting to understand each others tendencies. it was something to hear from joerger in the post game how much the team cheers when ben is doing well. that's positive whether we are keeping ben or pumping up his trade value.
    pshn80, dude12, gunks and 2 others like this.
  12. kingsboi

    kingsboi Well-Known Member

    Doesn't a new head coach usually need at least 20 games with his team to tinker with line ups, instill his schemes, system & grow chemistry? Tell me another thing, does Coach Joerger's pros outweigh his cons?
  13. Spike

    Spike Well-Known Member

    You might need to step back and just enjoy some turkey. (<- also in jest)

    We're sitting at 6-9, having missed our starting PG for 8 games. Barnes has shown, in at least two wins, to make the right play at the right time, usually defensively. I haven't seen Casspi make the same type of play...ever. Gay seems back to Malone mode. This offense certainly suits him better. I wouldn't play Casspi at the 2, we're surprisingly much better there.

    Joerger has decided WCS isn't helping, and has adjusted his minutes accordingly. Maybe Casspi is giving him that same look in practice. Many of us have opined that Casspi just may not thrive in a halfcourt set.

    Ultimately, I'm not sure who's minutes you would cut to give him some run. Maybe there is something happening behind the scenes. In the NBA, there usually is, and we're never privy to it until after the fact.

    Not sure how pointing this out makes someone fragile, but rather measured and able to see the bigger picture.
    Warhawk, dude12, sactownfan and 4 others like this.
  14. gil renard

    gil renard Active Member

    Jeez, settle down bro and enjoy Thanksgiving. It's been 15 games, and we're about where we should be...a couple bad losses, a couple surprising wins.

    Joerger is new here...Vlade brought in a lot of mediocre vets...Collison missed the first eight games...we have four "project" young players. It was going to take some time to figure things out, but he seems to have settled on a rotation that is effective in less then 20 games. Joerger is not the problem here.
    New Era likes this.
  15. funkykingston

    funkykingston Well-Known Member

    I am a big Joerger fan but I would agree that his starting five and his rotations have been frustrating at times.

    Yes, the Kings have been much better in the 1st quarters of the last two games and that's because he made adjustments to the starting lineup. But by that same token I don't think it's out of bounds to ask why it took him so long to make those adjustments. Maybe it could have prevented another couple losses.

    And given that Lawson, Tolliver, WCS and even Farmar have been given opportunities to make a case for more playing time I also don't think it's unreasonable to ask why Omri hasn't at least been given a shot to try and help the team that he was a big contributor for last season. If Barnes and Gay are starting I can't see a reason why Casspi can't at least get a few minutes backing up either forward spot.

    So far the Kings are one game better than they were last season when (a) that schedule was tougher early on than this year's and (b) last season was widely regarded as a complete tire fire even by Sacramento Kings standards.

    There are lots of reasons to be excited about Joerger and to feel he's moving things in the right direction but he's not perfect. But the fact that he has finally made the changes a lot of fans have called for definitely show he's not overly rigid. I think he'll get things figured out as best he can.
    Ron and sactownfan like this.
  16. kingsboi

    kingsboi Well-Known Member

    Who is though? It's nit picking like this that drives coaches and players out of town for no reason. Let's go ahead and at least applaud that we have some stability at head coach, or so one would hope.
    c-webb1s#1, pshn80, Ron and 5 others like this.
  17. Glenn

    Glenn Well-Known Member Contributor

    Somebody will get injured and Casspi will get his minutes. We have kind of a rag tag group of decent players but maybe more importantly, we can withstand an injury to everybody but Cuz and maybe Rudy.

    Let me add that when you have two stars or maybe three with DC, you don't need major league studs. You need guys who won't screw up and we have a whole bunch of them. They are all good enough especially when our team has a lousy reputation and HAS to overpay to get decent free agents..
  18. Glenn

    Glenn Well-Known Member Contributor

    I like Joeger better than you do but only by a smidge. We couldn't get Popovich se we settled for Joeger. I honestly don't know who would be better considering we have a special problem, Boogie. Joeger has the personal qualities necessary to survive if not thrive in the land of Boogie.
  19. bajaden

    bajaden Well-Known Member

    One thing that's obvious to me is that Afflalo, Lawson and Koufos have all played together before, so if I were the coach, I might assume that there's some built in chemistry there. So I start them together. The other two additions to the starting lineup are also obvious. You add our two best players. I think Joerger is a coach that likes a set rotation, so once he decided on that lineup, he was committed to stay with it for a while. I mean it may seem like an eternity to us, becuase of the past seasons we've had to endure, but for Joerge, it was just 14 games.

    I think he wanted it to work, and fianlly decided that it couldn't, and I think Collisons return hastened that decision. I doubt that he's done tinkering just yet, but I doubt there will be, barring injuries, any huge changes coming, unless we make some trades.
    ockingsfan, dude12, VF21 and 4 others like this.
  20. kingsboi

    kingsboi Well-Known Member

    Were the Kings the only team in the league that HAD to pay Tolliver 8 million and Afflalo 24 million for two years?
  21. Tetsujin

    Tetsujin The Game Thread Dude

    Not sure how many times this has to be brought up but the Kings can essentially turn both of those commitments into one year contracts at the end of the year.
  22. enigma99a

    enigma99a Active Member

    +1

    And it takes around 15 games for a coach to adjust to a new team. It takes time
  23. parker

    parker Well-Known Member

    9 of the Kings first 11 games in 2015-16 were at home and they never left the west coast in those 11 games. The opponents were more or less similar, so with the long road trip and the multiple back to backs, I'm going to say this year's schedule is more taxing.

    Also, the Kings became a dumpster fire about 43 games in. Before that they were closing in on .500 despite the rough start.
  24. dude12

    dude12 Well-Known Member

    This thread....I just don't get it. I think that players are starting to find their roles and tendencies with each other.....that should be a credit to Joerger and not an attack.

    And I like Casspi as much as the next person but he's a guy who played really well last year and before that has pretty much been a journeyman. This isn't last year and its a different coach. There are guys in front of him on the depth chart. That's what is going on.....nothing more.
    pshn80 and John Galt like this.
  25. Siranthony

    Siranthony Well-Known Member

    BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

  26. Gilles

    Gilles Well-Known Member

    Afflalo,Arron - Cousins,DeMarcus - Gay,Rudy - Koufos,Kosta - Lawson,Ty were at +2,4 points per 100 possessions after 13 games, so saying "it was obviously not working" just is not true.

    The only other lineup with more than 50 minutes on the floor after 13 games was Afflalo,Arron - Barnes,Matt - Cousins,DeMarcus - Gay,Rudy - Lawson,Ty. And it was at -10.3 points per 100 possessions, so replacing Kosta with Barnes was even less obvious.

    Main problem is in 229 minutes, when both Cuz and Rudy were on the bench, Kings were outscored by 17.5 points per 100 poss. so far. A winning team doesn't play like that.
    Last edited: Nov 25, 2016
    TaxMan and parker like this.
  27. kingsboi

    kingsboi Well-Known Member

    I understand that. The point I was trying to make bringing up those two players is that to me...it seemed the Kings were making moves for the sake of making moves, they didn't have to pay those two players that type of money to come here IMO. They would of been better off doing nothing and trying again next season to bring in the type of players that Joerger and co. want. They are role players, low end role players at that.
  28. gunks

    gunks Well-Known Member

    One would hope that as the team becomes more familiar with Joerger's offense, our non stars will be less hapless when it comes to scoring.

    Not that we don't need another threat or two.
  29. Glenn

    Glenn Well-Known Member Contributor

    It is always nice to see stats that back up what I think I am seeing. This team could evolve into something. I'm not thinking NBA championship o_O but I will be surprised and disappointed if we are not in the playoffs. I think the common knowledge of the elderly intelligentsia on this forum was that it might take 20 games if not half a year for the team to gel. I think we are watching it gel. I'm happy about this season and it's been a long time since I have had that feeling.

    Finally.
  30. funkykingston

    funkykingston Well-Known Member

    A big reason for signing Temple & Tolliver was to help change the culture of the team. They are both consumate pros who had to fight and claw for NBA opportunities so they don't take things for granted and play hard. They are team oriented vets who make the right decisions on offense and the right rotations on defense. And they are both highly regarded as good teammates.

    Tolliver hasn't got a lot of burn as a stretch four off the bench but Temple has been maybe the best SG on the roster so far. That's not saying a lot given the competition but he's shooting the best percentages from 2 and 3 while shooting a higher percentage of shots from outside, has been the best rebounder and passer and (IMO) has clearly been the best defender, all while having the lowest usage rate.

    I was never super high on the Afflalo signing and so far he hasn't looked like a great fit so I'm glad he's the one with the flexible two year deal and GT is the one locked in for two more seasons.

    The Kings did overpay for all three guys. Part of that is just that Sacramento isn't an ideal destination when the team is good and is basically Siberia given the recent turmoil and dysfunction. But it's also because the team wanted what those guys being both on and off the court and they were willing to overpay to get it.

    And it isn't as if there were much higher caliber players willing to come to the Kings. Ryan Anderson even spurned his hometown team after being linked to the Kings for months. It's also hard for me to believe that if the Kings just sat out free agency this summer and tried again next summer that they'd end up with a much better haul.
    I think they got the type of guys they are capable of getting in free agency right now. And FWIW, I think they ARE the type of players Joerger wanted - Barnes especially.

    If they can turn things around and sneak into the playoffs I think it will be hard to say they were bad signings.

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