Cinematic twists and spoilers (split from TV thread)

Discussion in 'Lounge' started by Mr. S£im Citrus, May 16, 2016.

  1. Mr. S£im Citrus

    Mr. S£im Citrus That's right, I said it! Staff Member Contributor

    Is it my imagination...




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    ... Or did Mike and Molly just rip off the finale to King of Queens?




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  2. VF21

    VF21 #KingsFansForever Staff Member Contributor

    Damn it, Slim. If you're gonna post a spoiler, make it clear BEFORE the spoiler what show you're talking about. I am not happy right now.
  3. VF21

    VF21 #KingsFansForever Staff Member Contributor

    For all I knew, it could have been about any number of shows. I'm just saying since you went to the trouble of making a spoiler alert, you could have ensured its success by putting the show title BEFORE the "spoiler space"...
  4. Mr. S£im Citrus

    Mr. S£im Citrus That's right, I said it! Staff Member Contributor

    Perhaps... I guess my question is, why would you need to know which show it was before you decided whether you wanted to read the spoiler or not? I appear to have been under the mistaken impression that people were either pro or anti-spoiler, and that it wasn't conditional based on which show was being discussed?
  5. Glenn

    Glenn Well-Known Member Contributor

    Makes sense to me. :)
  6. Capt. Factorial

    Capt. Factorial Cantry Member Staff Member Contributor

    Wait a minute. Mike and Molly can be spoiled? I thought it was a sitcom.
    Spike and Telemachus like this.
  7. Mr. S£im Citrus

    Mr. S£im Citrus That's right, I said it! Staff Member Contributor

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  8. VF21

    VF21 #KingsFansForever Staff Member Contributor

    I'm not going to debate the issue of why it mattered which show it was. The only point I was making was that I truly didn't expect a spoiler about a show which, to my knowledge, you've never discussed. For all I knew, it was most likely something about one of your wrestling shows...

    I've now watched the series finale in question so the point is moot. To answer your question, yep. Blatant ripoff...
  9. Warhawk

    Warhawk The cake is a lie. Staff Member Contributor

    I would like to know. There are a small number of shows I watch regularly and a vast majority I don't care about at all. If it was for one of the shows I watch, I would not read the spoiler unless I was caught up on the series. If it wasn't a show I watch regularly, I would read it immediately for the heck of it.
    uolj and VF21 like this.
  10. Mr. S£im Citrus

    Mr. S£im Citrus That's right, I said it! Staff Member Contributor

    ... That strikes me as being almost entirely counterintuitive.
  11. Padrino

    Padrino Well-Known Member

    random whiskey-fueled pop cultural thoughts: i'm not a huge fan of the way serialized entertainment is consumed in our culture these days. i think far too much emphasis gets placed on "twists" and "spoilers," which are generally surface-level plot details that rarely account for the reasons a connection gets formed between a viewer and a good show. for example, i was in grad school during Breaking Bad's final two seasons, and i had little time for television as a result (i was also largely absent from kf.com during that stretch). but, because of the nature of internet browsing, it was damn near impossible to avoid news of BB's finale after it aired. pop culture websites aren't always careful with their headlines and taglines, and individuals on social media are even less careful in discussions of pop cultural ephemera (though, admittedly, i've since departed from the social media landscape--for entirely separate reasons). long story short: through no fault of my own, the ending of BB was "spoiled" for me...

    that said, when i eventually found the time to watch the final two seasons on Netflix... man, i watched the hell out of that finale. it was excellent. i loved it. and as it turns out, knowing the ending in advance didn't "spoil" it for me anymore than knowing the ending of a great historical film or a great adaptation of a novel i've read could "spoil" them for me. as a viewer, i guess i don't value the reveal of specific plot details as much as i value well-rendered thematic resolutions. now, i fully recognize that most individuals will not necessarily feel as i do, and i also fully recognize that anger is a perfectly valid emotional response when a major development in television programming is "spoiled" for fans of a particular show; one individual can't dictate another's emotional reaction to any kind of art or entertainment, after all. but i do wonder about the tenor of these cultural conversations, and i wonder if we're perhaps doing violence to our enjoyment of... well, everything... by placing an undue amount of emphasis on the wrong things. hell, HBO's 'Deadwood' is my favorite television drama of all time, and it didn't even have a proper ending. it was prematurely cancelled... ( :( )

    but when a show is lucky enough to actively chart a course for its ending, fans react so dramatically if it doesn't end precisely as they hoped it would. i'm not even sure most fans know exactly how they would want some of these shows to end, and i find that i'm quite bothered by our cultural emphasis on these aspects of storytelling, as if displeasure over the way something concludes should negatively color the artistry of everything that came before that conclusion. the same could be said for the endless parade of sequels/remakes/reboots that come out of hollywood. everybody gets so red-in-the-face when a film property is sequalized, remade, or rebooted, as if a new 'Ghostbusters' movie--good or bad--could ever displace the magic of the original. why should the mere existence of this remake/reboot negatively color the way we relate to the original? why should it "destroy our collective childhoods," as is the popular parlance for such an act of high pop cultural treason? my goodness, the melodrama. why let movie studios or critics or random bloggers have so much control over one's enjoyment and appreciation for something? it's hard enough sometimes just to find something i like. actually liking that thing shouldn't require extra work...

    personally, i hope to enjoy paul feig's upcoming 'Ghostbusters' movie, but if i don't, i'll go straight home from the theater, put on the original, and enjoy that instead. then again, maybe the remake will be good, and then i guess we'll just have two good 'Ghostbusters' movies (because the 1989 sequel is something we've all agreed to erase from our memories, right?). and even though there is just so much media to consume on a daily basis, i think there's probably still plenty of room for more than one version of the same thing. i'd certainly rather that the film industry invested much more time, energy, and money on original ideas, but that's a different argument than one that claims the first version of something is always the best version of something, and that any version thereafter is not only inferior, but its very existence tarnishes the original...

    anyway, apologies for the meandering sermon. just felt like a bit of culture commentary. back to your regularly-scheduled programming...
  12. Warhawk

    Warhawk The cake is a lie. Staff Member Contributor

    And this doesn't make any sense to me. Why would I want to read a spoiler about a show I like and haven't watched? And why wouldn't I immediately read spoilers about shows I don't generally watch?

    The only comments I have on this are that I don't get "mad" or "angry" if I encounter a show spoiler before I see a show, but I do prefer to experience it without hearing about plot details ahead of time. Frankly, I didn't watch the most recent trailers for the Captain America movie before seeing it as I wanted to go into it with as little information as possible so I could experience it "fresh" or "new" as much of it as possible.

    I generally agree with you on the remakes, etc., except for the alteration of Star Wars by Lucas on the DVD/blu-ray releases, etc. He made significant changes to the original movie and made the original version generally unobtainable or an inferior version. You want to re-make it? Fine. But don't prevent us from watching the original on blu-ray, etc.
    VF21 likes this.
  13. Glenn

    Glenn Well-Known Member Contributor

    Some people will like the note and some won't. This is what makes us different from any evolution of robots. I know what I mean. There is another issue that just doesn't work in my household. There are some movies I can watch over and over and for different reasons. My wife isn't the same.

    I know there are many others that might enjoy your note.

    Bring back "Firefly" or whichever was the TV version. ;)
  14. VF21

    VF21 #KingsFansForever Staff Member Contributor

    Thank you. That covers my feelings, too.
  15. Mr. S£im Citrus

    Mr. S£im Citrus That's right, I said it! Staff Member Contributor

    Why would you want to know anything about a show you don't watch? What do you think is the best case scenario in that situation?
  16. VF21

    VF21 #KingsFansForever Staff Member Contributor

    Look at it this way: If you knew from the beginning that Bruce Willis was dead in The Sixth Sense, you would have knowledge the writer and director DID NOT WANT you to know. Your view of the whole movie would be different and you would not be drawn along the path those responsible for creating the film wanted you to take. I love cinema and I love following the path...the second time around I can and often do view it differently if there's a twist that makes the whole film different if you know about it.

    Granted, in this case we're talking about a sit-com ending (and a fairly banal one at that) but it was still something I was looking forward to watching and enjoying. And, because I knew immediately what Slim was referring to when he mentioned the ending of The King of Queens, it did diminish my enjoyment in some regards.
  17. VF21

    VF21 #KingsFansForever Staff Member Contributor

    Can't you just acknowledge that you inadvertently "spoiled" to some extent my enjoyment of the series finale? It's actually a pretty simple concept. If you're going to post a spoiler, common courtesy would seem to dictate that you give advance warning of what show it is you're talking about.

    I don't watch Game of Thrones because I don't get HBO but I follow the conversations of various people who do watch. I would read spoilers about that show without concern, mostly out of curiosity but also partially to see if any of my friends figure it out before actually viewing it.
  18. Mr. S£im Citrus

    Mr. S£im Citrus That's right, I said it! Staff Member Contributor

    I do so acknowledge; I'm just not sure if I should feel contrite about it.

    I guess I'm not really compelled by the idea that somebody can be conditionally anti-spoiler; I feel as though I acted in good faith, and out of consideration for people who don't like spoilers. You appear to be anti-spoiler, unless it's about something you don't watch, then it's okay, and I don't think that I can meet you where you're drawing that line.
  19. VF21

    VF21 #KingsFansForever Staff Member Contributor

    I am not anti-spoiler. They're fine. I think what we're quibbling about - and what I wish I could explain better - is that pre-spoiler etiquette to me should include what show, movie, etc. is being discussed.

    Example:

    VF21 posts: I just finished watching the series finale of Mike & Molly.

    SPOILER ALERT...
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    Did they just rip off the finale to The King of Queens?

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    END SPOILER ALERT


    The difference, at least in my mind, is that the show is clearly identified before the spoiler, thus making it apparent to one and all that if they continue to scroll they're going to see a spoiler about Mike & Molly.

    And now, since I feel as though we have not only beaten the poor equine to death, but have also pummeled the bones to dust, I think I can stop.

    I did learn one valuable lesson, however. If I see anything remotely resembling a spoiler alert in one of your posts, and I am not completely current on watching everything on my DVR, I am going to immediately remove myself from the thread in question. :p
  20. Padrino

    Padrino Well-Known Member

    that's fair, but if a film is dependent on such narrative "twists" to pull the viewer in, then i question the quality of the film in question. it's why i'm not overly fond of twists in movies like 'The Sixth Sense' or 'The Usual Suspects,' because once the rabbit's been pulled out of the hat, so to speak, there's nothing a filmmaker can do to stuff it back in there for the viewer's sake. you can never watch anything for the first time more than once, after all, and you can never unlearn what you already know in order to be surprised the second time around. you can certainly bring a new perspective to that second viewing, but if there's little else worth returning to once the surprise is gone, then it's likely to be a film for which i'll have little regard. at least the latter of the two examples i provided above has an ensemble cast that's got absolutely electric chemistry, making it worthwhile to return to for repeat viewings. and while the former has a rock solid dramatic performance from bruce willis, i have no desire to return to that movie again, because once the puzzle box is opened, it's rather empty on the inside...
  21. VF21

    VF21 #KingsFansForever Staff Member Contributor

    I agree to some extent. To me, it's about the writer being fair. Much like some of my favorite mysteries, as long as there are some clues (even if vague) then I can live with a twist that I didn't see coming. But if at the very end you find out the murderer (for example) was a character never seen or even alluded to (like the victim's first wife's cousin's second-grade teacher), then that's not fair. If it's a unique twist, like Bruce Willis' character, then I can appreciate it...even though, like you said, I cannot appreciate the movie the way I did the first time. I had high hopes for Shyamalan, by the way, but don't think he's ever come close to how high he set the bar for himself with The Sixth Sense.

    P.S. I am in total agreement about The Usual Suspects.
  22. Padrino

    Padrino Well-Known Member

    as did i, though i must admit to owning a minority opinion in that i think 'Unbreakable' is his best work. it's a whip smart subversion of the superhero origin story, and i also appreciate that the "twist" of the villain's reveal is both the least interesting and the least important part of the film. the scenes between bruce willis' character and his son as they discover, together, the extent of his powers are so lovingly rendered, and shyamalan makes an excellent decision in keeping the scale of the movie small and intimate throughout. i can't think of any other "superhero" movie that turns its head away from grandeur so regularly in favor of a slow burning intensity. now that comic book culture is deeply embedded in the consciousness of the general viewing public, i continually recommend to other movie fanatics that they give 'Unbreakable' another shake. it's aged really well in the last fifteen years of blockbuster movie mayhem, and i think it's worth reappraisal...
    Telemachus likes this.
  23. VF21

    VF21 #KingsFansForever Staff Member Contributor

    I had forgotten about Unbreakable, which is somewhat odd considering Bruce Willis and Samuel L. Jackson are two of my favorite actors. I'll have to give it another look.
    Padrino likes this.
  24. hrdboild

    hrdboild Well-Known Member

    I agree with Padrino about this. While I did like the twist in The Usual Suspects (less so the ending of The Sixth Sense) I'd argue that it's the fault of the writer if knowing the ending in advance would ruin the entire experience of watching the movie (or show). It means essentially that you've made a viewing experience that people can really only enjoy one time. Limiting the audience's point of view in some way can be a cool way to impart a story with the subjectivity of the character but there has to be something more to it than that. Compare the movie Se7en for instance. I'm not going to say how it ends, but for anyone who's seen it -- does knowing the ending take anything away from the experience when you watch it again? For me I appreciate it even more because there are so many interesting details going on with the character development that get missed the first time. Fight Club is another example -- I enjoyed that one even more the second time. You can trick your audience but in the end if the whole experience doesn't lead up to something more interesting than just "oh, you got me" than maybe it deserves to be spoiled?
  25. VF21

    VF21 #KingsFansForever Staff Member Contributor

    That's not fair to the viewer, who should be able to decide for themselves if the twist/trick at the end was worth the journey.

    As far as the movie Se7en goes, I could never watch that movie again for the simple reason the iconic image we won't mention is indelibly etched on my brain.
  26. Glenn

    Glenn Well-Known Member Contributor

    Oh, you have to have enjoyed the ending scene of "The Usual Suspects" when Spacey morphed to Keyser Sose. That one scene showing where Verbal got the cues to make his narrative had to have boosted the enjoyability factor of that movie by 25%. It had a darn good cast also. I was baffled through a great deal of the movie and that irked me.
    Warhawk likes this.
  27. Glenn

    Glenn Well-Known Member Contributor

    Is this the one with the seven deadly sins? I loved it.
  28. Glenn

    Glenn Well-Known Member Contributor

    My favorite movie might be "Godfather" but "Apocolypse Now" has grown on me after I figured out why it was chaotic. Reading about the making of the movie was interesting. Whatta mess.

    I heard many stories about the Viet Nam War and got a lot of gruesome details. That war was a frightening, chaotic mess for the boat guys and the simple grunt.



    Edit: as I am disabled and can't walk much, I watch 2-3 movies a day. Obviously I watch several over and over. There are an incredible number of bad movies and I avoid them by checking the internet before I watch.
  29. Hoovtrain

    Hoovtrain Well-Known Member

    I was thinking the exact same thing. They might have well just flown to China to get the baby
    VF21 likes this.
  30. Mr. S£im Citrus

    Mr. S£im Citrus That's right, I said it! Staff Member Contributor

    Yep, I'm doing it again; consider yourself forewarned:









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    Really, Barry? Really?




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    P.S., it was for The Flash.
  31. VF21

    VF21 #KingsFansForever Staff Member Contributor

    Clever donkey. :p
  32. Mr. S£im Citrus

    Mr. S£im Citrus That's right, I said it! Staff Member Contributor

    Y'all know what the game is: if you want to know what show I'm talking about, skip to the end. I could do it the other way around but, well... I ain't gonna.


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    ... I wonder if all the people who have been complaining about missing Zack are happy now?







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    So, yeah, this time, it was about the season finale to Bones.

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