Break it

Discussion in 'Kings Rap' started by The Hammer, Jan 2, 2018.

  1. The Hammer

    The Hammer Well-Known Member

    I always proclaim my victories far and wide, and once again I was correct.

    On my recent "Make it or Break it" post, many of you (a suprising amount) read that as me PREDICTING the Kings going on a win streak or a run of wins. You would have been mistaken. It was a post assessing this period of weeks as a do-or-die part of the season, from a record perspective, and a mental perspective.

    So, now, three revealing games after the triumphant Cavs win, against three subpar teams, AT HOME, we have our answer.

    How many of you now, for sure, know the season is over? I do. It is. Don't kid yourself. And not just because of three additional losses. Because of three additional losses to teams they should have beaten, at home, after a potential momentum shifting win. We simply cannot defend NBA teams at an NBA level.

    So, now, my focus shifts from speculating on an improbable playoff run, to accepting the reality facing me: the Kings have a lot of young players with great potential and a large need for defensive education. So let's get on with the education.
    Last edited: Jan 2, 2018
  2. upinsmoke

    upinsmoke Well-Known Member

  3. John Galt

    John Galt Well-Known Member

    Really hope to see the Kings dump off Hill, Temple, ZBo and Koufas... and just basically lose out. Sacrifice the coach if need be - draft the cream of the crop in the top 3 - and then start fresh next year. Vince can stay as mascot/mentor.

    If Temple was the mentor he's made out be, or Hill was... then the team would not let a 72 point half happen to them.

    Can't deny - this season is over. Might as well tank our ass off, starting now.

    Of course this could be Dave tanking. Vlade & Vivek need to pull him aside "Dave we're asking you to basically shave points subtly... not roll them out to get DESTROYED every night on the home floor. Do better".
  4. Kingsfan23

    Kingsfan23 Well-Known Member

    Tonight was the night I officially started supporting the lins, but after these three losses it should be clear no playoff run is in order. Management/coaching staff (why Joerger was extended largely IMO, to give him another year to accept rebuilding in this one) need to act acccordingly in terms of trades/youthful rotations or they are harming our future
  5. The Hammer

    The Hammer Well-Known Member

    On people (not you KF23) wanting to fire Joerger.


    Keeping Joerger and even extending him is a win-win situation for us. I mean, not as in winning basketball games, but as in the right move, with no downside. You HAVE to have some semblance of stability, as a FOUNDATION, of anything in the franchise. Constantly changing coaches, even when the record is bad, is just bad juju. You keep the coach through losses, you at least try to let him work a young roster for a few years. The one and possibly ONLY thing you do not do, is try to fix your problems by switching coaches.
    Last edited: Jan 3, 2018
    VF21, pshn80, upinsmoke and 4 others like this.
  6. gunks

    gunks Well-Known Member

    I always knew it would be like this!

    Bit of a relief really. Every Cuz year I convinced myself we'd make the playoffs, only to be broken hearted by the allstar break every year.

    Keep on sucking in '18 Kings! We're getting our cornerstone with a top 5 pick!
    jcassio and kingsfan1984 like this.
  7. Čarolija

    Čarolija Well-Known Member

    I agree with this. People might not agree with his approach but Dave Joerger is a good coach. He is not elite but he is good to very good. Don’t mistake his record with the Kings as a reflection of his coaching ability.

    No one in their right mind would have thought anything other than Kings being a bottom 5 teams this season. Talk of play offs in the off-season on this board were always over the top optimistic.

    We recruited veterans to set the locker room culture, work with youngsters and show good habits to youngsters. Keep in mind that we have 10 players who are in their first 3 seasons in the league. That is very young and inexperienced team. Veterans are needed for this bunch of players.

    Kings will have a top 5 pick despite the veterans. They were always going to have it. Kings will win some games against good teams and keep losing “winable” games. It’s all part of a team in a rebuilding mode.

    Playing youngsters and benching the vets would be a mistake. I like how Jorger always has 2-3 youngsters on the court with the veterans. They way people carry on around here one would be forgiven for thinking Joerger is playing our 5 veterans Thibs like minutes. Simply not the case.

    Players are getting roughly the same number of minutes with some players having a few games off so that others can get extended burn out there.
  8. Tetsujin

    Tetsujin The Game Thread Dude

    And it should be noted that the players that people claim Joerger is benching in favor of the vets are either not exactly ready for prime time (up until tonight, Skal largely spent most of the season looking like he had never watched a game of basketball before) or have their limitations (Mason is good in spurts, but when defenses have had a chance to plan for him, he's absolutely crumbled thus far).

    Bogdan and Willie have both looked very good out of our bunch of young guys but they're also the most experienced of our crop of kids and still probably not good enough to warrant knocking Z-Bo down the pecking order.

    I don't really understand the people shocked that the Kings aren't making some sort of miraculous run for a playoff spot this season as (a) the entire front office and coaching staff has made it abundantly clear this season isn't about winning so much as it is development for the future, (b) this is pretty much the best possible draft to be a tanker, and (c) there isn't even enough experienced talent on the roster to get to the playoffs if we wanted to. Z-Bo's still good, so is G-Hill (in the right spots), Temple and Kosta are good role player depth dudes on a contender, Carter is old, and the rest of the guys are younger than the weeds.

    Unless you're fully prepared to go Sixers process mode (I for one am not), I'm not quite sure how Vlade and Joerger could handle this situation much differently.
    VF21, Čarolija, Spike and 5 others like this.
  9. KingsSelecao

    KingsSelecao Active Member

    I am not sold On Joerger being good or very good at coaching. I can name 15-16 coaches that are easily better at the moment. At best, He's mediocre. His Memphis coaching record, for me is a a misnomer. The team had already won 56-50-50 games before he took the job. Joerger's real litmus test of his coaching ability begins next year. I am not saying the Kings have to be a playoff team. But, this team needs to commit to playing a certain style offensively, commit to defense, and the young players need to improve. If the Kings get close to .500, I would say that's a great job. If the team is winning 28-34 games again, I am not so sure he knows how to coach young talent.
  10. kingsboi

    kingsboi Well-Known Member

    so you made a thread on proclaiming how right you were after three straight lopsided losses?

    Look, the word playoffs and the Kings have no business being in the same conversation. Anyone saying otherwise were on a cloud they didn't want to come down from.

    No one expected much of anything in terms of wins and losses but we did want to see development from the youth and so far we've seen it mostly from Trill and Bogs. Mason has shown glimpses and Skal has too but his leash is the shortest of all the players so we see glimpses.

    Too many posters are calling for a coaching change and that is a typical overreaction from Kings fans, to be honest, at this rate, he might quit before his extension is up. The look on his face says it all on the sideline.
    Gguod and Tetsujin like this.
  11. Kingsfan23

    Kingsfan23 Well-Known Member

    Disagree with Hill being good.. As much as I don’t like him, he’s good for the tank (does nothing, brings apathy)..

    Randolph is the question.. Remove him, and this team could be vying for the worst record . But would it also be better for the youth to get up and down the court and not be reliant on the system in place?

    Would it be a bad culture move to move Z-bo like that? If you feel he is the difference between the worst record and the fifth worst record, I would think responsible management might have to go that route, but I personally don’t mind going full Sixers for the remaining year
    kingsfan1984 likes this.
  12. ESP47

    ESP47 Well-Known Member

    I didn't want to rain on anyone's parade in the original thread but were some of you really expecting a run at the playoffs this year after winning a few games on the back of ZBo?
    Gguod, Kingster and gunks like this.
  13. Kingsfan23

    Kingsfan23 Well-Known Member

    I think all playoff talk was pretty much confined to what could happen if everything broke right scenario, which you probably could make a case for every team in the league
  14. SacTownKid

    SacTownKid Well-Known Member

    Unless they are the wrong coach for the players you have, and if they are everything should be on the table moving forward. How many coaches stick it out through a rebuild regardless? Especially ones who appear to be doing damage to the process if he's not being directed to do so? If you keep your coach for some mirage of "stability" and in the process hamstring your own rebuild and development efforts you're just wasting time and increasing the odds of a 2nd implosion leading to a new FO with a whole new crop of players, coaches, etc. The Kings have done this for too many years. Obviously after the Maloofs it was about finding footing for awhile, and this appeared to be the first time this Kings franchise were committed to a rebuild and knew where they stood. It's what's happening on the court so far that's completely blowing this. Vlade needs to sit his coach down and refine, or redefine that path. And if this is all Vlades doing this franchise is in some serious trouble.

    Dave Joerger is right about his system making them better players, but that's only if it doesn't cause them to tune him out first. How did working in the triangle work for teams the last few years? Even the mighty Phil Jackson fell from his pedestal attempting it. It's dangerous ground to walk on unless you can specifically bring in your own personnel to run it. The issue is that doing so probably means propping up Garrett Temple types into a role not fitted for them to lead you to victory every night and suffering on the talent end as a result. Joerger got a better bargain with Zbo than anyone expected, but he's still going to give up as much as he gives on a team like this. It's a zero sum game with little chance for significant improvement and a very limited window of opportunity.

    What the Kings did with other coaches, under previous regimes, or whatever it might be should never hinder them from attempting to eliminate the source of chaos causing harm even if they might "look bad". The chaos I see specifically involves the usage of players right now. Little comments from players about the rotation are bubbling up here and there. Joerger is starting to become openly frustrated at things that appear to be things like players not getting the ball to Zbo in the post? You can see the look on the players faces as they leave the huddle. Kings fans have seen this same thing on repeat for 10 years. It's the half in half out crap making this way harder than it needs to be, and yes, the breaking point is supposed to be the first step in a rebuild, not basically a whole year after you dumped your franchise player and to the point where you are well on your way to angering almost your entire roster. Them picking up that 3rd year I would think was a sign for Joerger to just go with it and not fight the uphill battle of salvaging his own career while developing the young guys.

    The truth is from what we've seen from Joerger is that he might not be able to budge from his stance on things. Well, we've seen enough so far to give us a clue to how well that might work with the young players the Kings have to build with. Get with the program or get out. It's that simple. The Kings are heavily invested on the wing, yet are running a system that doesn't really make the most of their abilities. Make it work or find work somewhere else. Trading the players to fit Joeger is another possibility but this process is also causing a backlash effect in terms of value. Platoons might raise the value of your lowest asset, but it also diminishes your most valuable ones at the same time.
    fansinceday1, ESP47 and SLAB like this.
  15. jcassio

    jcassio Well-Known Member

    Same sentiment. Which is odd. Which is why I took note!
    ESP47 likes this.
  16. Folsomkingsfan

    Folsomkingsfan Active Member

    I think it goes beyond just being a culture move. I think it needs to happen to actually make us a better team. Our offense revolves around him heavily enough to the point where instead of trying to make a play, whoever has the ball will just dump it off to him and then stand around watching. I refuse to believe that a guy like Hill who has produced his whole career, and De'Aaron Fox, who was one of the most exciting play makers in college ball, completely forgot how to run an offense at the same time. I think they both defer to Randolph so much because that's what Joerger wants. He knows Randolph and feels comfortable playing through him. The fact is though that this is not sustainable or conducive to a winning environment because Randolph is a horrible defender and eats up so much shot clock time that he often settles for bad long range two pointers. I think in order for both the team, and also Joerger, to grow they need to get rid of Randolph because I don't see anything changing any time soon as long as he is here.
    Gguod and chief bromden like this.
  17. Kingster

    Kingster Well-Known Member

    Who thought this team had any chance of the playoffs? Hugh? If you did, then I can understand the profound disappointment. But you set yourself up for it. This team won't make the playoffs next year either. Bank on it. The reason to watch this team is not to route for the playoffs, but to route for young players improving bit by bit by bit. I really don't mind the slow growth going on, but I like gardening and landscaping, so I'm used to slow incremental progress.:) Just make sure you never plant a ginko tree in your front yard and expect to get much shade from it in a couple of years.;)
  18. Čarolija

    Čarolija Well-Known Member

    Going Sixers mode now is pointless! Whatever pick we get next year is going to another team (was it Boston as part of the Fultz trade)?

    What Kings are trying to do it rebuild in a smarter way by putting more emphasis on culture and player development. I have seen it work in other sports and even in the NBA with the Spurs. They got lucky with Duncan and then from there it has all been about very astute scouting, drafting, development, culture and system. While I don't think Kings will necessarily go down the Spurs path (here is hoping that we do), I have to appreciate their willingness to do it that way.

    People complain about the time veteran's are getting but IMHO they are integral to the whole thing. A good veteran at every position. With the progress of WCS and with Z-bo's presence, it is just about time to try and cash in Koufos (even though I like him as a players and the role he plays). Temple still serves a purpose, Vince is pretty much a coach with the occasional cameo. Hill will probably last the season and then it would be time to look at trying to cash in that chip as well.

    Z-Bo is the player I don't think we will move on. I think we will keep him and his minutes will start getting more managed as the season goes on. Part of Z-Bo's role is to be that "protector" on the court. He is known as a tough SOB in the league and players don't mess will him. Clear example of this was his "In my hood bullies get bullied" line to Cuz. Z-Bo is still playing well for him age but there is a lot of miles in those legs and they will tire as the season goes on. In the mean time, others are still working on their game and developing. Skal got 15 rebounds against the Hornets. That is a career high. He still has a LOT of development left in him this year, let alone career.

    The issue here is that people think that development = playing time. Simply not true. Most of the development happens during practice. I am very comfortable with the approach that Kings are taking. All they need is to strike it lucky with one pick (either last year or this draft) and they are on the way. There has been more emphasis placed on player development now than at ANY time in the last 10 years. Kids need veterans. Only special ones don't sink without the veteran presence. We have a nice selection of talent that can be part of the winning team provided there is a centerpiece. Whether we have that centerpiece on the roster is unknown to the general public but the Kings hierarchy would have a much better idea where we are in that aspect. We have basketball people running the show for a change. I am willing to trust their judgement for the time being.
  19. kingsboi

    kingsboi Well-Known Member

    I'm not sure if we watched the same Fox at Kentucky because from what I recall, he was sharing the play making with Monk. Fox was constantly in attack mode and if they swarmed in on him, he would kick it out to Malik or any other Kentucky shooter. If Joerger is out to make him a pass first PG, then he will fail miserably and he will end up being a wasted project. He is a attacking point guard, when I watch him out there, he doesn't read the defense and he doesn't have PG instincts right now. That's not to say he may not eventually develop it, but that is not what got him into this league.
    Joshoua likes this.
  20. The Hammer

    The Hammer Well-Known Member

    You're not getting it.

    I was never predicting making it or breaking it.

    I was predicting that we would know very soon one way or the other: make it or break it. And this spectacular failing of the last three games has made it, at least in my mind, crystal clear that this is a break it season, not a make it season.

    I actually underestimated myself. I really didn't expect to have an answer this soon. I was right that we would be getting an answer, as I predicted we would get. I never predicted what the answer was going to be. Is this really that hard to understand?
  21. kingsboi

    kingsboi Well-Known Member

    What's hard to understand is you making a thread on a "make or break" season for a lottery team with not much else to base it on except wins and losses rather than performance and if the rebuild is going accordingly or in a downward spiral to nowhere
  22. The Hammer

    The Hammer Well-Known Member

    This is all for fun. Lighten up!
    King Baller likes this.
  23. jcassio

    jcassio Well-Known Member

    He played one year of college ball. And this year his role has been limited to feeding Z-Bo the ball. Why paint such an entrenched picture of the guy based on so little data?
    King Baller likes this.
  24. mac

    mac Well-Known Member

    What makes you believe that Joerger is a good coach though? At least, any more so than Luke Walton being a good coach.
  25. Čarolija

    Čarolija Well-Known Member

    There are a lot of aspects that make a good coach and Joerger has a lot of them covered. Is he a Gregg Popovich? No!

    Here are some of the reasons of the top off my head why I believe that he is a good coach:

    - Knows how to form and maintain relationship with players without sacrificing his authority
    - His players believe in him and play for him. Despite all the whinging about Skal having a short leash, he is STILL playing for his coach, believing in his coach and listening to his instructions both in practice and game situations
    - Is very good at Xs and Os. Watch the set plays he runs, especially those coming out of the play offs
    - He is not afraid to mix it up with his line ups and rotations.
    - He picks and chooses his battles when it comes to playing his youngsters. He matches them up against opponents that they can handle rather than sending them out to get slaughtered. Something that is getting really overlooked on this board.
    - He is trying to instill the right attitude in his young players by making them work for their minutes and opportunities. One of the biggest mistakes this franchise has made in the last 10 years is being quick to give the keys of the franchise to Tyreke Evans and DeMarcus Cousins. This time last year there was an outcry about WCS being in the doghouse and not getting games. A month before the trade deadline, WCS starts consistently getting 20-25mpg and finishing games on the floor. He came back with a more developed game. Don't be surprised if you start seeing the same things with other players on the roster.
    - Given some solid talent, Joerger has proven that he can consistently win you 50 games in a season. He doesn't have that talent here. He never had it in Sacramento but he is trying to develop it and I think he is going about it the right way. Just my opinion.

    IMHO, Joerger is the best coach we had since Adelman and I have been a fan on Mike Malone. Kings FINALLY have a good coach that is on the same page as the front office, yet people want him gone because he is not doing things the way they think it should be done.
  26. kingsboi

    kingsboi Well-Known Member

    How am I doing that? I'm simply pointing out what his strengths are coming out of Kentucky and that he shared play making ability with Malik. That's not a knock on him by any means. He just isn't being utilized properly.
  27. dude12

    dude12 Well-Known Member

    People wanting Joerger fired or blaming him done lost your heads.
  28. mac

    mac Well-Known Member

    I generally have had a similar impression, although maybe less convinced on the X's and Os. This season however is the first that he has had to develop young talent and frankly speaking the results aren't great. I'm not a fan of an offense built around ZBo and his consistently inconsistent rotations hardly inspire confidence in the players. Whether he's really putting the young guys in favourable matchups and positions to succeed is yet to be determined.
  29. Folsomkingsfan

    Folsomkingsfan Active Member

    I guess I should've said he knew how to keep an offense in motion. At Kentucky he didn't rack up assists, but he zipped around the court so fast and so frequently looking to make plays that he never let defense's get into any sort of rhythm. He was always in attack mode. So seeing him play so passively and not to the strengths he showed at Kentucky makes me think that our offense is the problem more so than his lack of skills.
  30. dude12

    dude12 Well-Known Member

    Maybe Fox's age and playing against professionals has something to do with him not being aggressive. Amirite?

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