Discussion in 'Personnel moves' started by Section 101, Jun 24, 2016.
I'd rather have a slow Bogdanovic than a fast Collison to handle the ball.
I am weary of this guy too. I hope team picking ahead of us falls in love with Smith. I leaning more and more to put him in group with Monk and Markennan as good players but wrong for Kings and what they are trying to build.
Was Mike Bibby an elite PG? I wouldn't put him in that category. He was a good PG, but more than that, he fit what the Kings were trying to do on the floor. To me, J. Will was more of an elite PG than Bibby, but he didn't fit what the Kings were trying to do on the floor. He was most effective with the ball in his hands. If all five starters are capable ball movers, and ball movement is what your looking for, then you don't need a ball dominate PG. All you need is a PG that can get the ball up the court, make the assist pass if it presents itself, but other wise get the ball into your center, or your PF's hands and then play off the ball.
If the Kings think that Bogdanovic can do that, then fine, let them see if it works. If you don't like that, then Good by, if your intent on leaving. This idea that you have to have a quick first step, or explosiveness is pure nonsense. Don't get me wrong, it's nice to have those things, but their not a necessity. There are a bunch of PG's in the NBA that don't have a quick first step, or who can't explode to the basket, and they do just fine. Once again, Bibby was a good athlete, but he wasn't known for exploding past people. Leave him open and he'd hit a shot, and he was terrific at coming off screens.
My whole point is that I think Vlade is trying to build a similar team to the one he played on. That team didn't need a ball dominate PG. To be honest, I think a ball dominate PG is the antithesis of what Vlade is looking for. So maybe Bogdanovic fits the bill. Not having the opportunity to see him play on a regular basis, I have no idea, and you know what, neither do you. We can both guess, but that's about it. Hey, if he can bring the ball up the court and enter it, then what does it matter what we call him? What will they call Simmons? A point guard? A point forward? Who cares?
But speaking of forwards, there's no reason Bogdanovic couldn't play SF for us with his size, and maybe that would make you happier as well. Size wise, he compares well to Iguodala.
Iguodala: 6'6.8" in shoes - 6'11" wingspan - 8'9.5" standing reach - 30.5" no jump vertical - 34.5" max vertical
Bogdanovic: 6'6.3" in shoes - 6'11.1" wingspan - 8'8.3" standing reach - 27.2" no jump vertical - 35.8" max vertical
Not implying that Bog's will be as good a defender as Iggy, but he is tall and long enough to play the SF position. And, so is Richardson.
Richardson: ^' 6'6.3" in shoes - 7'0" wingspan - 8'5.5" standing reach - 33" no jump vertical - 38.0" max vertical.
Richardson must have some wide shoulders, because he has a huge wingspan, but a shorter standing reach. No other explanation I can think of.
Another amazing game for Bogdan! They didn't have home court advantage against Panathanaikos, but they won both games in Greece, mostly because of Bogdan explosion. Great all-around game for him. He collected some tough rebounds, had few nice assists (6 assists in Europe are like 11,12 in NBA), and of course, three point shoots, especially in the first half. And he ended a game with some big plays. He created a lot with a ball, as usual, but again repeating, don't expect him to play much at PG, because he is a scorer first. Ability to pass, handle and create own shoots are just bonus for a shooter at SG/SF position.
By the way, Bogdan shoots a lot of 8-meters three's, so NBA three point line wont be a problem for him
At this point, the question isn't whether or not it's worth bring Bogdan over, it's how good he's going to wind up being in the NBA.
I look at the tape of his last two games and see prime Manu, a guy who just knows how to play basketball. Never probably going to be the fastest or most athletic dude on the court but completely capable of beating teams with other methods.
And with that considered, Marcus Chriss is a small price to pay for Skal, Papa, and Manu with hair.
I just can't justify the Kings passing on a PG in one of the most loaded PG drafts because they're content with Bogdanovic as our future PG. I can't buy that argument at all. I'm not saying Bogdanovic can never become a NBA pg, but as you implied, he wouldn't really be a traditional PG. When it comes down to crunch time at the end of the games, could you trust Bogdanovic to effectively be able to bring the ball down the court and run a play? I haven't see him do a lot of that in Turkey.
If we saw Bogdanovic as our future PG, while Hield as our future SG, who plays defense between the two? Both guys are extremely limited due to their average quickness. Bogdanovic would probably struggle guarding SGs, so putting him on PGs would be even less ideal.
Bogdanovic and Iggy might have similar lengths, but they have completely different bodies. Iggy is an outlier for short SFs, and remember, he started out his career as a SG. It wasn't even until he got traded to Denver where he started playing more SF. He has really narrow shoulders, so he'd need to add on at least 20lbs.
If the Kings really wanted to settle for Bogdanovic at PG, then I think we'd need absolute defensive studs at PF or C. This could open room for a player like Zach Collins or Jarrett Allen. You talked about how Willie was forced to over-help a lot this year, and I see the same thing happening next year. In Skal's first year, his offense was fantastic. However, his defense was putrid...he does have tools to be good, but aside from a few athletic blocks every 3-4 games, he didn't do much at all on that end.
If we didn't already have Buddy, I think Bogdanovic would be our franchise SG, while Malachi could be our franchise SF. In the end, it's a good problem to have anyways. You can never have too much talent...unless you're Rob Hennigan and trades everyone away for pennies. I'm higher on Richardson than most(I know, a shocker after how I viewed him as a prospect), and I hope he doesn't become the forgotten man behind all of this. I think he's a bit more talented than both of those guys.
I tend to agree with you that Divac does not love the idea of the ball dominant point guard, with which I wholeheartedly agree because the ball dominant point guard is easier to defend than a team in which all the players pass and make others better. Given that, I'm very curious how this principle takes effect when he evaluates point guards in the draft. If the effectiveness of a point guard comes largely from dominating the ball, wouldn't Divac be less likely to draft such a point guard? If so, how would you rank say the top 5 point guards in this draft in terms of their "ball dominating" nature?
Full Bogdanovic highlights: 25pts 6asts 8rebs
Mike Bibby played with practically an entire team full of capable passers. Christie, Webber, Vlade, Miller, Jackson, Hedo, the list goes on. Bibby was not the same player at all once the majority of those guys were gone and he certainly was never good enough to lead a team from the PG spot without a lot of talent around him. He was nearly the perfect fit for some of those teams but he showed that he wasn't as effective later on when he lost those guys and was given more average players around him.
Thomas Robinson also had stats like 6'10" in shoes and 7'3" wingspans recorded. We all know how that turned out. Iggy is like a slightly smaller Lebron. There is going to be zero comparisons when/if Bogdan gets here. He's not even in the same universe as far as being as physically imposing as Iggy. He can guard any SF on the planet. Bogdan will be able to guard SF's that can't handle the ball and SG's playing spot minutes at SF. But as far as the real SF's out there, he will get destroyed and won't be quick enough to be able to destroy them back on the offensive end.
It would be nice to be able to plug these guys in at all the holes on the team but I just don't think that's going to lead us to winning basketball. In fact, I can't really recall it ever working out for us. Rudy at PF. Cousins at PF. Collison at SG. Tyreke at SF. Bogdan Bogdanovic is a SG, I don't see the problem in bringing him over as a SG and letting him battle it out with these guys. If someone has to get moved then they have to get moved but the luxury is that with the expanded roster we can put Malachi in Reno if we have to so we can get a better look at him before we pull the trigger just to clear out room.
Look, I don't disagree with a lot of what you say. There is no perfect answer to how we'll use all the players we have. At least not now, but then that's the job of the coach to solve. All I'm trying to do is point out some potential uses of different players. Where they eventually end up playing, or how good they'll be, is up for grabs. But what I'm not going to do, is discount any possibility. I've been burnt too many times over the years by making statements about what a player can or can't do.
There are players that come into the league, and the from the get go, you just know they're going to be great. Those are the easy one's to judge. Then there are players that come into the league, that have potential in some areas of their game, but also have some obvious flaws. So, your not sure how good they'll be and all you can do is make an educated guess. Anyone can point out the flaws of a player. Give me a name, and I'll find something wrong with that player. I try to look at a players positives and promote them, but at the same time, not ignore his flaws. Too many people ignore the positives, and emphasis nothing but the flaws. He can't defend! He has poor handles! His outside shot is broken! Etc, etc!
You say you haven't seen Bogdanovic bring the ball up the court in crunch time very much. So tell me, how many actual games have you seen Bogdanovic play. Do you live in Turkey? Or anywhere in Europe? If so, then that statement has credibility, but if not, then your in the same boat as me, limited to what you can find on line. And that is very limited in total. So my point is, I don't make statements like that. It actually would be a true statement if I made it, but it would also be an abstract statement. I would have not bothered to mention that I only saw 2 entire games that he played. Hardly a measurable sampling.
By the same token, I saw every single game Kentucky played this year. So when I make a statement about Fox, or Monk etc, I feel like I'm giving a credible opinion. Now I'm a junkie, with way too much time on my hands. I have two DVR's going full blast all season long. I watch, if I'm not too tired, up to five college basketball games every night. Some I have to re-watch because I fall asleep. I'm not trying to toot my own horn here. My point is, that despite watching all those games, I still have doubts about a lot of the players.
So everything that concerns you are legit concerns. I have the same concerns. I had concerns about Kawhi Leonard and Stef Curry. I also had concerns about Jimmer Fredette and Thomas Robinson. I had concerns about Drummond, and to some extent, my concerns about Drummond have materialized. Yes, he played better than I thought he would, but he hasn't gotten significantly better since he's been in the league either.
So if you asked me, based on what I have seen of Bogdanovic, can he play the PG position? I would say that yes, he probably could on the offensive side of the ball, depending on what you expected of him. But I would have concerns on the defensive of the ball. Can Joerger develop a good team defense that's capable of hiding Bog's weaknesses? Don't know. I think with Willie and Skal together, the potential for that is possible, but at the moment, a lot of work needs to be done.
Good question.. As far as a ball dominating PG, I would say that Ball may be at the top of the list. He's such a good passer, and has great court vision, that he's most effective with the ball in his hands. He's been compared to Jason Kidd, and that's a fair comparison at the same stages of their careers. Fultz is a player that I thought was a bit too unselfish at times. He's capable of playing with the ball, or off the ball. I don't think it matters to him. You want him to create, he'll create. You want him to score, he'll score. There's a reason he's the first pick in the draft. If he has a flaw, its that he loses focus on the defensive side of the ball at times.
Fox is a bit of a loose canon in this area. I would say he's best right now with the ball in his hands, but mostly because of his ability to explode to the basket, or beat the defense down the court. But he's been a willing passer when those things aren't there. There were times when I wished he would have dished the ball instead of going to the basket. His ability to play off the ball will depend on improving his jumpshot. He has to make people guard him on the perimeter. I think that will happen, but no guarantee's. Fox seemed more than willing to defer to Monk, so I wouldn't say he's inclined to be ball dominate.
Smith, like Fox is a freak athlete, and he relies on that a lot, just like Fox. His outside shot is better, but inconsistent. I would say that Smith is more ball dominate than I would like. I say that because he seemed to lose focus when the ball wasn't in his hands. When he has the ball in his hands, he's more aggressive. When the ball isn't in his hands, he tends to become a spectator. Of course that's correctable, but it's up to him. Make no mistake, Smith is one talented player, but right now, I'd say he's more of a ball dominate player.
I'm going to skip Ntilikina because I really haven't seen him play enough to be fair to him. Youtube videos are great if you want to see all the good highlights. Jawun Evans is a player I really like and someone is going to get themselves a hell of a player when they draft him. I would say he's more of a ball dominate PG, but he's very capable of playing off the ball, and trust me, you better guard him on the perimeter. He reminds me a bit of Isaiah Thomas, and a bit of Chris Paul. He's a little sneaky with what he does on the court like Paul, but he's quick around the lane, despite not being an elite athlete, similar to Thomas.
First off, I'm not saying that Bogdanovic is the next coming of Iggy. OK! I was merely saying that Bog's has the size to be able to play some SF. The only stat I care about is standing reach. His standing reach is almost identical to Iggy's. That's all I was saying. Also, the 6'10" listing of Thomas Robinson was from his time at Kansas. I think we all know that his actual height was 6'8.8" in shoes at the combine. He did have a 7'3" wingspan, but his standing reach was 8'10". Not much better than Bogdanovic's 8'8.3" standing reach. Robinson's problem wasn't his measurements, it was his skill set.
All that said, you could very well be right. Bog's may be nothing but a SG. End of story. But many players have changed positions from college to the NBA. Klay Thompson was a SF in college but plays SG for the Warriors. People questioned whether Thompson would be able to guard SF's in the NBA at the time. Sometimes, players are doing what their coaches want them to do, and not totally what they're capable of doing. So if the Kings want to experiment a little, why not. Lets see where the chips fall. Joerger is a smart guy. He'll figure out how best to use what he has.
I know you didn't mean he was the next coming of Iggy. I just think they're on very different levels body wise. The measurements say one thing but their size and strength say another. I just wish more people here would use the eye test in addition to their measurements because two guys can have identical measurements but look completely different standing next to each other. Bogdan has fantastic measurements for a SG and I think it would give him a nice advantage at the position. Slide him over to SF and now he's at a disadvantage. I'd just like us to start getting guys into positions where we have the advantage for once because usually it's the Kings that are playing catch up to everyone else. We're going to need a good sized SF if we don't wind up with a PG in this draft that turns out to be a top PG. Malachi, Bogdan and Temple will all be at a disadvantage. It's just crazy how we went from not being able to find a single SG to now having so many that we don't even know what to do with them.
I'm all for experimenting next year. I just hope they don't pass up on players in the draft that we need because they want to experiment. The tweet about us not taking a PG because of Bogdan is worrisome. What if Isaac or someone is available and we don't take him because we want to play Malachi and Temple at SF? Vlade is so erratic that it's tough to guess what they're going to do because conventional is not in his nature.
Look, I'm sure there would be matchups that wouldn't be advisable, but come on, is Gordon Haywood a physical specimen. There are plenty of SF's he could match up with. And there are some he wouldn't. I just don't like putting people in a box. That said, I'm also a big believer in playing players to their strengths, and obviously SG looks to be his strength. So I'm not in disagreement there.
As far as the draft goes, I think Vlade and company know what our needs are. They do after all, do this for a living, and have far more info at their disposal than we do. All I want, is for them to grab a player that fit our needs as long as it's not a reach. If that player isn't there for some reason, then take the best player available, regardless of position.
You really do follow the college game. Even when I followed it most back around the early 90's Bobby Hurley & Duke vs NC then Webber vs NC a couple years later, my intensity for the game paled in comparison.
About Jawun Evans, I'm not familiar with his game. I see he has good stats, about 6'1" 6'4" reach so, so so size. Most mocks have him going late 1st to even beyond our 2nd round pick. Kings should work him out. Do you think he has that much more to offer than Isaiah Cousins.
Isn't that exactly the reason the Kings are in a position they currently in? Passing up on best player available to address a need. I've seen too much of it. If the BPA happens to be Malik Monk, then you draft him.
I'm pleased with Bogdans development, a Ginobli type impact on the league is what I expect
Nope. If anything they may have passed up the best player to just take what they liked or thought was BPA. If they drafted on need you might see the name Leonard on the back of a Kings jersey right now. Drafting 2 centers when you have an All star already isn't addressing need. Drafting a pure SG in Stauskas when you just drafted Ben McLemore isn't addressing need. That practice almost killed Willie's young career just like it might have done with TRob after the Kings drafted a PF after already having Jason Thompson and JJ Hickson. There is only so much opportunity for young players to break through. When you don't factor in need and pick players that don't fit your scheme or that fill a position already stacked you've pretty much doomed them from the start.
Thank you for the updates.
A few questions for you.
Bogdan had mentioned that he did not want to think about the NBA until his season was over in Europe. When does the EuroLeague championships end?
Also, what do you think his teams chances of winning the Euroleague championship are this season?
Coming out of Butler? Nope.
But these days?
Hey, the Kings could have Temple, Hield, Richardson and Bogdanovic on the roster next year so I'm all for seeing if any of them can play spot minutes at the three. But it's definitely going to be matchup dependent.
So far Temple is the only one who has shown any level of success guarding SFs or PGs and even in his case I much prefer seeing him at the 2.
To be fair, we spent most of the last twenty or so games with Ben McLemore as our only "small forward" so it's not like they could be that much worse of a depth option.
You expext HoF level production? That's setting him up for failure.
Ill be thrilled with a good rotational player. If we get more great, but its not fair to compare him to the greatest euro wing to ever come over.
I'm not at all familiar with Euro contracts or what these guys actually get. How would a 4 yr-25 mil deal compare to what Bogdan is making now?
Absolutely. He's a Joerger kind of player (length/defense/plays hard) and if we believe in Buddy/Bogdan to take on a lot of the playmaking/ball-handling duty next season, we can bring those aspects of Ntilikina's game along slowly and not force him to run a team right out the gate. Just let him play the "Pat Bev" role of using his length/defense/activity/shooting next year while spoon feeding him playmaking and ball-handling duties.
I also don't get why people are so hung up on SG vs SF. The positions are completely interchangeable on offense and there are very few SF's left (Bron, KD, Kawhi,George, Hayward) who can absolutely punish a weak defender. And we don't even know yet if Bogdan is going to be a weak defender.
I totally agree. Considering that the two new hires to the FO seem to be more defense interested guys as well, I could see us being really interested in Ntilikina.
Final 4 will be played from 19th to 21th May.
Chances are 90% that they willl beat Panatanaikos and go to f4, and f4 will be played in Istanbul Turkey, so Fenerbahce will have big home court adventage. Last year, they lost in finals to CSKA, and this season, during regular season, they struggled a lot (finished 5th). But mostly because of Bogdan injury, and some other important players bad forms. However, they are playing great last two games, and even CSKA is the most dominant this season, f4 are only two games, so anything can happen. Especially in Turkey....
They are playing 3rd game in 25th may against Panathanaikos, and probably will end this series then. Lets hope for another good game for Bogdan.
Im not sure either, but Bogdan is making about 1,5 milion euros per year. And as far as i know, taxes in Europe are smaller, so that would be like 2,5 milion NBA contract per year? All i know is that he could earn lot more money in NBA and still can be underpaid. Only CSKA can offer big contracts similar to NBA.
Thanks for updating us on Bogdan and the Game in your part of the world.
He should want to come here so he doesn't have t wear those ugly yellow uniforms anymore.
I always figured the Kings will pay him 10-12 million a year. The truth is the Kings will probably have to in order to get up near the league minimum they have to spend on players.