At what point is enough enough? (split)

[Kingster]

"....at what point is enough enough?"

That is the question. So when is enough enough? Or can Cousins keep doing what he's doing indefinitely and still have the support of a Kings fan? Can Cousins do anything short of commit a crime and still have your support? I'd really like to know what the limit is, because if there is no limit, then there's no reason whatsoever. For example, if Cousins yells at his coach again in public view, is that "enough"? Or if he gets five more technicals this year, is that enough? Or if he obviously quits in three more games this year, is that enough? Or if gets suspended by Vlade again for conduct unbecoming, is that enough? When is enough enough?

 

[VF21]

NOTE: I split this into its own thread. I think it's an interesting question phrased a little differently than what we've been discussing so far.

"....at what point is enough enough?"

That is the question. So when is enough enough? Or can Cousins keep doing what he's doing indefinitely and still have the support of a Kings fan? Can Cousins do anything short of commit a crime and still have your support? I'd really like to know what the limit is, because if there is no limit, then there's no reason whatsoever. For example, if Cousins yells at his coach again in public view, is that "enough"? Or if he gets five more technicals this year, is that enough? Or if he obviously quits in three more games this year, is that enough? Or if gets suspended by Vlade again for conduct unbecoming, is that enough? When is enough enough?

1. Anything short of a crime? I don't think he'll commit a crime since that's never been the problem, real or perceived.

2. If he yells at George Karl in public again? It would honestly depend upon why. If it's directly related to how the game is being coached (or not coached) and it's obviously impacting the outcome, I would be more inclined to listen to his rationale than automatically suspend/fine him.

3. If he gets five more technicals? Not a major concern on my part, which I know at least some will object to.

4. If he "obviously" quits in three more games? Also not a major concern, since I'm not of the belief he has quit as often as you and some others think he has.

5. Gets suspended again for conduct unbecoming? It's that kind of the same as #2? It's not like he's out drunk in public or frequenting houses of ill repute, etc.

I actually tried to answer your questions honestly, so please do not think I'm just messing around. You represent people on one end of the DMC spectrum and I'm one of those on the other end. I'm actually interested in hearing what those in the middle have to say, which is why I broke your comments down into the 5 points I've shown.

 

[Kingsgurl]

I think I would have a lot less patience for already it if he wasn't channeling my own "What the HELL are you DOING?" sentiment. He had a great relationship with Malone, and I would love to see that kind of a bond again. Instead of getting T's, he was pulling Malone off the court to keep him from getting one. Trust, respect........ it goes 2 ways.

 

[bajaden]

I think the first question I have to ask is, do you think it's alright for a player to insult, and call his head coach names in public and in front of his teammates? If you do, then you and I have nothing more to discuss because we operate by a different set of values. Would it be alright if McLemore did it? Or Curry? And, if that's OK, why then would any player even pay attention to that coach?

Understand, this isn't about having just cause and being angry. We all get angry at times. That's why we have road rage. Is road rage OK? If I have a problem with my head coach, I go into his office, shut the door, and air my differences with him. That's what adults do. Children throw tantrums!

Edit: By the way, this post doesn't mean I want to get rid of Cousins, but his crap is pushing me to my limits. But he hasn't reached the end of my rope yet.

 

[VF21]

I think the first question I have to ask is, do you think it's alright for a player to insult, and call his head coach names in public and in front of his teammates? If you do, then you and I have nothing more to discuss because we operate by a different set of values. Would it be alright if McLemore did it? Or Curry? And, if that's OK, why then would any player even pay attention to that coach?

Understand, this isn't about having just cause and being angry. We all get angry at times. That's why we have road rage. Is road rage OK? If I have a problem with my head coach, I go into his office, shut the door, and air my differences with him. That's what adults do. Children throw tantrums!

Edit: By the way, this post doesn't mean I want to get rid of Cousins, but his crap is pushing me to my limits. But he hasn't reached the end of my rope yet.

As far as your first paragraph goes, I guess we do in fact operate under a different set of values if you're going to make an arbitrary statement like that.

http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/nba-b...ation-latrell-sprewell-15-195831032--nba.html

The story of Carlesimo being choked by Latrell Sprewell is frightening in some regards as it parallels some of the frustrations of the current Kings big man.

It's a sad story that still reverberates through the NBA. The different here is (only IMHO) that the flames of our current situation are being fed by agents, media pundits, etc. I cannot help but think some actually hope Boogie does snap and break Karl in half like a twig.

I do not think the situation between Karl and Boogie is anywhere near as simple or clear as you seem to view it. Perhaps it's because you've played in the professional ranks? Perhaps it's because I see Boogie in a different light than you? Who knows, but I think the whole scenario is much more complex than we are even aware of.

 

[Sac.1989]

Enough is enough when his name is in the rafters and we have won multiple championships. Until then we keep pushing and working to make ourselves a better organization and there is a lot that needs to be addressed here before we can even fully utilize Demarcus and his potential, but yes that is what we should be looking to do not trading him out because we cant get to that point.

 

[kingsboi]

Enough? enough of his antics? when he requests a trade or the front office decides to trade him will be enough. This next head coach will probably be his last one, at least in Sacramento. If he helps ruin that relationship, then enough is enough.

 

[Glenn]

I thought this thread was about Ben McLemore.

 

[whozit]

"....at what point is enough enough?"

That is the question. So when is enough enough? Or can Cousins keep doing what he's doing indefinitely and still have the support of a Kings fan? Can Cousins do anything short of commit a crime and still have your support? I'd really like to know what the limit is, because if there is no limit, then there's no reason whatsoever. For example, if Cousins yells at his coach again in public view, is that "enough"? Or if he gets five more technicals this year, is that enough? Or if he obviously quits in three more games this year, is that enough? Or if gets suspended by Vlade again for conduct unbecoming, is that enough? When is enough enough?

.... at what point is enough enough? Asked myself that many a time. At what point or what do they have to do to make me not a fan of the Kings? That is the pertinent question to me.

Cousins antics on the court are nothing compared to what has been done to the fans from the organizational level. Prior owners to the current ones. Personally, I think Cousins has been trying and has improved this year but still a work in progress. Ownership I would say the same for. Despite Karl (not full blame but not helping).

 

[Im Still Ballin]

I feel you Kingster. Sentiments majority of Kings fans feel.

 

[Sac.1989]

I feel you Kingster. Sentiments majority of Kings fans feel.

I wouldn't go as far as saying the majority of Kings fans.

A good 3/4 of kings fans are still fully behind DeMarcus. Sure some questions his mentality but its the same that are the first to note that the situation he is in is ridiculous to start with and we have much greater issues at hand which need addressing more then the mentality of our star player.

 

[Im Still Ballin]

I wouldn't go as far as saying the majority of Kings fans.

A good 3/4 of kings fans are still fully behind DeMarcus. Sure some questions his mentality but its the same that are the first to note that the situation he is in is ridiculous to start with and we have much greater issues at hand which need addressing more then the mentality of our star player.

Depends on where you look. I don't consider this forum an accurate representation due to the clear bias starting at staff/moderator level (Yes I'm talking about you VF21)... Sactownroyalty feels more even keel. Yes their posts consist of 70% GIFs and memes, but there is no clear bias. The poll over there was in drastic contrast to the one here. You can blame that on multiple voting, but you'd have to account for that on all sides.

Any way you slice it, the majority is most definitely not behind Demarcus. It's close to 50/50, as time has worn a lot of fans thin. The divide has grown over this season

 

[Sac.1989]

Depends on where you look. I don't consider this forum an accurate representation due to the clear bias starting at staff/moderator level (Yes I'm talking about you VF21)... Sactownroyalty feels more even keel. Yes their posts consist of 70% GIFs and memes, but there is no clear bias. The poll over there was in drastic contrast to the one here. You can blame that on multiple voting, but you'd have to account for that on all sides.

Any way you slice it, the majority is most definitely not behind Demarcus. It's close to 50/50, as time has worn a lot of fans thin. The divide has grown over this season

Id say Sactown royalty is all for trading cousins. Its not even 50/50. The majority is all for moving on without Demarcus.

In any case whilst i'm disappointed in that representation and put it down to a misguided mentality, i hold onto the hope that this organisation takes a strong look within, fixes its internal dynamics, and actually puts us in a position to succeed on court. If they do that then Boogie's performances will only be noted for his domination of the boxscore.

If they cant do that, then its only a matter of time. Boogie will walk or more likely we'll realize we're going to lose him and trade him though it would be strong justice to the organisation to lose him for nothing given we've wasted years of not being able put a team and successful framework around him.

 

[gunks]

Is this thread about Karl?

Wait, it isn't?!

*leaves*




PS: Cuz is a pouty, unprofessional jerk, but he'd have to kill and eat a whooooooole lotta puppies for me to want him off the team. Beasts of his nature get leeway. He's also a gosh darn saint off the court.

 

[Kingster]

I actually tried to answer your questions honestly, so please do not think I'm just messing around. You represent people on one end of the DMC spectrum and I'm one of those on the other end. I'm actually interested in hearing what those in the middle have to say, which is why I broke your comments down into the 5 points I've shown.

VF, thanks for honestly attempting to answer the question. But I think you misunderstood the question. Those were examples that I provided. What I really want to know is what exactly is it hypothetically that you would have to see from Cousins to get you to the "enough is enough" moment. You fill in the blank. If a person has no limit to what they would tolerate from Cousins, then it's gone beyond the point of rationality. And I know you're rational. So what would you have to see from Cousins before you finally say: Enough is enough!

 

[Kingster]

I think the first question I have to ask is, do you think it's alright for a player to insult, and call his head coach names in public and in front of his teammates? If you do, then you and I have nothing more to discuss because we operate by a different set of values. Would it be alright if McLemore did it? Or Curry? And, if that's OK, why then would any player even pay attention to that coach?

Understand, this isn't about having just cause and being angry. We all get angry at times. That's why we have road rage. Is road rage OK? If I have a problem with my head coach, I go into his office, shut the door, and air my differences with him. That's what adults do. Children throw tantrums!

Edit: By the way, this post doesn't mean I want to get rid of Cousins, but his crap is pushing me to my limits. But he hasn't reached the end of my rope yet.

Baja, hypothically what would Cousins have to do to get to the "enough is enough" moment for you?

 

[Dbeltz24]

Enough will be enough for me when we get a capable/good NBA coach for DMC, surround him with players that help him get to the playoffs and DMC's antics prove to bite our team in the ass, disrupt team chemistry and not make the playoffs.

Until we give DMC the tools to succeed, I'll put up with his antics as long as he produces for us. If we get him the tools he needs and we still fail, then enough is enough.

But I think once given the tools, he'll take us to the promise land.

 

[KingMilz]

Enough will be enough for me when we get a capable/good NBA coach for DMC, surround him with players that help him get to the playoffs and DMC's antics prove to bite our team in the ass, disrupt team chemistry and not make the playoffs.

Until we give DMC the tools to succeed, I'll put up with his antics as long as he produces for us. If we get him the tools he needs and we still fail, then enough is enough.

But I think once given the tools, he'll take us to the promise land.

I could be mistaken but a few weeks ago you were completely anti-Cousins now your the complete opposite what changed for you?

 

[KingMilz]

Baja, hypothically what would Cousins have to do to get to the "enough is enough" moment for you?

If you have not had enough of DMC after 6 years than you never will at this point they may as well put up a bronze statue outside of Acro Arena with him holding a lottery ball with the number 6 engraved in it or if the Kings win 30 games or more this season put that win total for a truly HOF eat.

 

[Dbeltz24]

I could be mistaken but a few weeks ago you were completely anti-Cousins now your the complete opposite what changed for you?

Realized how incompetent our coach was and how great DMC is.

DMC is producing these numbers while playing for a coach he wants gone.

It'll be exciting times when the Kings surround DMC with the tools to succeed, instead of handing him a dumpster fire and saying fix it while not getting burned.

And mainly, I wanted to believe Karl could get it done. Foolish, but I wanted it to be true

 

[Kingster]

If you have not had enough of DMC after 6 years than you never will at this point they may as well put up a bronze statue outside of Acro Arena with him holding a lottery ball with the number 6 engraved in it or if the Kings win 30 games or more this season but that win total for a truly HOF feat.

LOL.

 

[KingMilz]

Realized how incompetent our coach was and how great DMC is.

DMC is producing these numbers while playing for a coach he wants gone.

It'll be exciting times when the Kings surround DMC with the tools to succeed, instead of handing him a dumpster fire and saying fix it while not getting burned.

Fair enough

 

[Dbeltz24]

Fair enough

And while noting that yes, DMC has some flaws he'll need to work thru (not getting back on D quickly/barking at refs/not handling the media professionally about coaching).

He does nothing but produce every game for a coach he wants gone, haven't heard one of his teammates complain about him, he's a top 5 talent and loves being in Sactown, even tho we gave him 0 to work with.

Once given a stable/winning environment, it'll be up to DMC to take us to the playoffs and it's hard to bet against his talent.

 

[twslam07]

Enough is enough when the following happens and we still can't win:

1. The franchise is stable
2. We hire a competent coach that fits with the style of the team
3. We not only have a talented team, but a talented team that fits around Cousins

If we still can't win after doing these simple & easy tasks that any competent franchise would do around a talent like Cousins, then I'll be willing to switch my position on Cousins.

 

[Merdiesel]

This organization should take a long hard look at themselves before throwing anything on Cousins.

Vivek and company have done the unthinkable... They've outdone the Maloofs. We're the laughing stock of the NBA. I'm having a hard time blaming that on our only All-Star who has been loyal as **** to this city since day one.

 

[VF21]

VF, thanks for honestly attempting to answer the question. But I think you misunderstood the question. Those were examples that I provided. What I really want to know is what exactly is it hypothetically that you would have to see from Cousins to get you to the "enough is enough" moment. You fill in the blank. If a person has no limit to what they would tolerate from Cousins, then it's gone beyond the point of rationality. And I know you're rational. So what would you have to see from Cousins before you finally say: Enough is enough!

I don't know. I'll know it if and when I see it. It's not that I have no limit, because I'm sure there is one, but I do not know what it is. Right now, I feel like this:

Enough will be enough for me when we get a capable/good NBA coach for DMC, surround him with players that help him get to the playoffs and DMC's antics prove to bite our team in the ass, disrupt team chemistry and not make the playoffs.

Until we give DMC the tools to succeed, I'll put up with his antics as long as he produces for us. If we get him the tools he needs and we still fail, then enough is enough.

But I think once given the tools, he'll take us to the promise land.

 

[bajaden]

As far as your first paragraph goes, I guess we do in fact operate under a different set of values if you're going to make an arbitrary statement like that.

http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/nba-b...ation-latrell-sprewell-15-195831032--nba.html

The story of Carlesimo being choked by Latrell Sprewell is frightening in some regards as it parallels some of the frustrations of the current Kings big man.

It's a sad story that still reverberates through the NBA. The different here is (only IMHO) that the flames of our current situation are being fed by agents, media pundits, etc. I cannot help but think some actually hope Boogie does snap and break Karl in half like a twig.

I do not think the situation between Karl and Boogie is anywhere near as simple or clear as you seem to view it. Perhaps it's because you've played in the professional ranks? Perhaps it's because I see Boogie in a different light than you? Who knows, but I think the whole scenario is much more complex than we are even aware of.

Let me be clear about this. I don't have a problem with Cousins being upset with Karl. I just have a problem with his actions. No one has defended Cousins more than I have. I've been following him since highschool, and I've excused a lot of what he does as immaturity. I met his mother, and she said that a lot was expected out of him early on because of his size, But his size belied his maturity. As people grow older, and face the everyday problems of life, they usually mature. And while I realize that it's more difficult in the NBA bubble, at some point, it's no longer an excuse.

There are adult ways to handle things, and then there's the 12 year old way. I've been there, done that. Just about every time in my life that I've lost my temper and blew up at someone, I've regretted it. It's unproductive! What did Cousins accomplish with his rant? Nothing positive. Is that something to defend? I realize it's easy, and almost fulfilling to live out one's frustration with the team and Karl, vicariously through Cousins. It's time for Cuz to grow up. The problem is, I don't think he thinks he did anything wrong. For me, this isn't about his talent, or wanting him traded. It's about wanting him to be a mature adult.

 

[King Baller]

I was a Warriors fan growing up. Graduated High School in 1975 when they won it with the Rick Barry led squad. I lived through the whole Don Nelson vs. Chris Webber fiasco which was not much different than our own Karl vs. Boogie fiasco. The Warriors kept Nellie and Traded off CWebb for Tom Gugliotta and three first round draft picks. I had reached my limit then and swore off the NBA. Then the Kings hired Geoff Petrie and I was intrigued. I have followed the Kings ever since. Imagine my delight when Geoff traded for CWebb

The point is that trading away a Franchise Cornerstone is not a solution. Coaches come and go in the NBA and that is the direction the Kings should go in this case.

As for Boogie you are asking us to draw a line in the sand for him. In a clash of personality types a line in the sand for Boogie is something he will cross over as if it was some sort of challenge. Do I wish The Kings Big Man was more stoic? Yes I do. The reality is that he is who he is and what is needed is a Head Coach with the wisdom and maturity to deal with Boogie much the way Malone did.

But I ask you to ask yourself a question about the following:

When Kobe got in trouble in Colorado what did the Lakers do?

When Blake beat up that trainer what have the Clippers done? What should the Clippers do about all the whining and flopping CP3 does?

Think about what happened with Ron Artest and how he ended up playing for the Kings.

What should the Warriors do about the constant complaining of Draymond Green? Keep in mind during most of Green's complaining the Warriors are setting records for win totals.

So with each of these guys at what point should enough be enough? And my last question what does that even mean? Are you expecting an extended suspension? Or do you want the Kings to trade the Big Man for David Lee and three picks that become the next set of bench role players?

We are all frustrated with the Kings organization. It is very easy to focus on Boogie when the reality is that he deserves very little blame for the organizations troubles. In fact he is probably more frustrated than all of us Fans. For him it comes out in yapping on the basketball court about what he sees an injustices. For you and I our outlet is this computer screen

 

[King Baller]

Let me be clear about this. I don't have a problem with Cousins being upset with Karl. I just have a problem with his actions. No one has defended Cousins more than I have. I've been following him since highschool, and I've excused a lot of what he does as immaturity. I met his mother, and she said that a lot was expected out of him early on because of his size, But his size belied his maturity. As people grow older, and face the everyday problems of life, they usually mature. And while I realize that it's more difficult in the NBA bubble, at some point, it's no longer an excuse.

There are adult ways to handle things, and then there's the 12 year old way. I've been there, done that. Just about every time in my life that I've lost my temper and blew up at someone, I've regretted it. It's unproductive! What did Cousins accomplish with his rant? Nothing positive. Is that something to defend? I realize it's easy, and almost fulfilling to live out one's frustration with the team and Karl, vicariously through Cousins. It's time for Cuz to grow up. The problem is, I don't think he thinks he did anything wrong. For me, this isn't about his talent, or wanting him traded. It's about wanting him to be a mature adult.

I also would like to see Boogie respond different to his adversity. He is the most loyal talented player the Kings have ever had IMO. I would like to see him behave like Tim Duncan and to be honest I think he was headed that way with Coach Malone. But we all know how that worked out.

I still remember hearing of this exchange between Sprewell and Carlesimo. Coach said "put a little more mustard on that pass", S said "don't be walking up on me" then the choking ensued..........

 

[King Baller]