Are we REALLY better off?

Discussion in 'Kings Rap' started by SLAB, Oct 31, 2017.

  1. Larry David

    Larry David Well-Known Member

    The Kings have at least set themselves on a path.

    The big problem is not the Cousins trade, but that they surrendered an unprotected 2019 pick trying to chase the 2016 playoffs and/or convince Cousins to stay.

    I thought it was unlikely the Kings had assembled a stable of young prospects, could add vets, a high 2018 pick and grow that group into a playoff team in 2020 or 2019. The pitch was they were already pretty close to “on track” just young.

    This team is bad. Fox is a real prospect. Bogs will be very good, but I don’t think he’s a franchise player. Maybe Buddy or Skal is pretty good but probably not both. I’m skeptical of Giles.

    This team probably needs two more elite prospects in 2018 and 2019 drafts and the latter belongs to the Celtics or 76ers. In my opinion, fansare upset tonight because they are coming to grips with how long and hard the slog will probably be
    alonshin likes this.
  2. funkykingston

    funkykingston Well-Known Member

    Are the Kings better off? Nope.

    Could they be? Sure. With the right moves.

    Fox and Mason could make Hill expendable and a decent trade piece.

    The young guys will get a chance to show whether they are worth building around or potential trade pieces as well.

    They are looking to have a great shot at a top 3 pick in a top heavy draft.

    The commitment has been made to a rebuild. Now the onus is on the front office to make it work.
  3. hrdboild

    hrdboild Well-Known Member

    To be frank, I think the question itself is tautological. Are we better off without Cousins? Hell no! He's a top 5 player in the league. And there's a rather large subset of Kings fans who will never believe that just as I'll never believe otherwise. As long as you have a player that good on your team you're perpetually 2 solid pieces away from the playoffs. The sad fact that the most incompetently run organization in the NBA over the last 7 years couldn't manage to find those 2 pieces no matter how hard they tried (or didn't try in the case of you know who) doesn't mean that it's not possible. Had we got even 1 subsequent draft right and pulled in a second star like Kawhi or Steph or Giannis, the narrative would be completely different. To lay all that incompetence at DeMarcus' feet (which is essentially what Vlade did when he mumbled something about changing the culture) is unfathomably stupid to me, not to mention grossly unfair. That so many people eat it up anyway doesn't surprise me but I'm sad that it doesn't surprise me because I like to think truth wins out in the end over double talk and propaganda. I'd like to think people can tell the difference.

    If you want to take a narrower focus though and ask only if we're better off now than we were 8 months ago, the day before Boogie was traded... well it's still a hell no for me but I can see a counter argument. And that's only because I've watched everything that's happened with this team in the DeMarcus era and I fully expect we would have rallied yet another streak of meaningless wins in March and April and given the Bulls our pick then lost Rudy and Darren for nothing and wasted another year of DeMarcus' prime asking him to lead a team of bench players to the playoffs at the same time other teams in our conference are collecting All-Stars like bubble gum cards. Now we have Fox and a bunch of bench players but that's bad enough to maybe get a top 5 pick in a loaded draft where, if we're lucky, we'll find a player half as talented as DeMarcus. Let's face it, it's been an ongoing war between reason and insanity in Kings land the entire time Boogie was on the team and the wrong side won. That's why Brick left. I would have left too if I had the heart to root for some other team. My solution is to watch everyone but the Kings this year and hope to hell a season of getting pummeled doesn't break these new kids' spirits. If Grant Napier and his followers want to gloat and waive their victory flag from the top of the trash heap let them have it.

    This may come across as pessimism but I'm actually still optimistic. Change doesn't have to be good or bad, sometimes it's just... different. This team is certainly different than what we're used to. Maybe some of the folks involved needed a wake up call. How do you think Washington fans felt when their GM traded Chris Webber to us for nothing and he went on to lead one of the most celebrated teams in basketball for half a decade? Probably sucked. Could be a case of not knowing what you have till its gone. Or it could be a minor blip on the road to something greater. Stick around and find out, if you have the stomach for it. I guarantee we'll never run out of storylines, players, and coaches to disagree about no matter what happens! :)
    Last edited: Oct 31, 2017
  4. Larry89

    Larry89 Disgruntled Kings Fan

    Doesn't matter to me man.. I'll be here even if we all get sucked into the deepest flames of hell
  5. KingsFanGER

    KingsFanGER Well-Known Member

    The Kings aren't better off, because while Cousins is gone, the main reason why the Kings are a bad team since the early 2000's is still in place.
    Once again the Kings managed to build a team with many ill fitting parts, no clear cut blueprint and no cohevisness. Once again the problem starts right at the top. Joerger is next. But after that Kings fans might finally look into the right direction.
    It all starts and ends with ownership and management.
    fansinceday1, Tetsujin, sono and 2 others like this.
  6. Čarolija

    Čarolija Well-Known Member

    Not sure that the Kings are better off. Problem the Kings had with DMC is always stuffing up every one of the picks after him. Kings have fluffed draft after draft.

    Giving up that unprotected 2019 pick complicates things even further because in order to get out of this bottom where the team is right now, the Kings need to find their franchise player either from the kids already on the roster (Fox is the only one that might be one in time) or in 2018 draft.

    Play off in 2019 was always a VERY optimistic expectation. It would mean that everything had to go right from the very beginning for that to be the case. Sure Kings will have the cap room but that means absolutely nothing when it comes to FA.

    It takes years to get the players and then just as long for them to mature into a real team. Kings are as many expected one of the worst team in the NBA today which might not be a bad thing, provided that the hierarchy makes it count by absolutely hitting a home run with every pick, every trade and every signing.

    There is some talent on the roster that will need developing but we are yet to find out if any of them will be franchise type talent. From what we have seen so far, none of them are DMC level talented. Maybe Fox if he can iron out those deficiencies.
    KingsFanSince85 and SLAB like this.
  7. hrdboild

    hrdboild Well-Known Member

    Are you sure that hasn't already happened? :eek:
  8. gunks

    gunks Well-Known Member

    I reckon the plan is to hit on enough young players that the overall talent level of the team beats out the massive talent that was Cuz. Between Fox, Bogs, Skal, (hopefully a fully rehabbed) Giles and (again, hopefully) a top 5 draft pick... There is a chance that we can come out of this in a better position than when we had Cousins, but it's going to take a lot of luck. Vlade and Joerger are going to need to put in major work too.

    This FO is going all in on the draft, and who can blame them? No good FAs want(ed) to come here. The Kings are rightfully seen as a toxic dumpster fire around the league, and it's going to take years to change that image.

    For Vlade to have been able to make it work with Cuz he had to battle:
    -the franchise's terrible reputation, which stymied his ability to sign FAs, even with overpays.
    -Cuz playing us out of a top 10 pick year after year
    -having very few tradable assets due to the total ineptitude of prior GMs
    -a meddling, egomaniac owner who is clueless as far as basketball goes.

    I get the fear though. But I think that once the kids get a bit more familiar with each other, they'll start having good games.

    We'll still lose a lot though. ;)
  9. The Hammer

    The Hammer Well-Known Member

    You've got to be kidding. You're putting this on the coach? You're nuts.

    Here's a challenge. Try NOT to find a scapegoat. Because it's never that simple. You scapegoat something and you end up worse off because you haven't understood the complexity of the problem.
  10. SacTownKid

    SacTownKid Well-Known Member

    Sometimes it's not a question of better, it's a question of different. Better or not, they are in a different position with a completely different talent base and therefore that probably calls for a different approach to how they play. Under the grizzly on court play (pun intended) there's an up and down team that hasn't be able to even scratch the surface of who they are yet. I do think Dave Joerger is trying to get them to fill in the gaps right now with they things they don't do well, but they need to first find success with what they are. It will be ugly at times, but they can't afford for it to be this ugly for too much longer. Players eventually tune it all out and Kings fans have more experience with what that looks like than most people in the FO or coaching staff do, sad as it has been, haha.
  11. SacTownKid

    SacTownKid Well-Known Member

    Fair or not, even provable or not, when almost every player on down the line is playing poorly and the team looks generally unprepared the finger of blame is going to go right to the coaches chair. Sometimes the ideology of a coach doesn't necessarily fit the talent on hand or vice versa. There are only a few ways out of it, you either build your team to suit the coach, find the right coach for your team, or one of both sides makes the adjustment to fit the other. Right now the players appear to be failing to get going with what the coach wants them to do. The ball is now in Joergers court we'll see what he does.
    Vladizzle likes this.
  12. Vladizzle

    Vladizzle Well-Known Member

    The team is progressively getting worse because they are progressively trying to play more to Joerger's half court system.
  13. Larry89

    Larry89 Disgruntled Kings Fan

    I'm not entirely sure, following this team sure has felt like an eternity of suffering, which by definition is hell.
  14. 206Fan

    206Fan Well-Known Member

    Holy crap. I just realized how creepy our parallel to the Sixers' rebuild this is..

    1. 76ers traded their franchise player Jrue Holiday for a 2013 lotto pick AND 2014 lotto pick. from the Pelicans.
    2. Kings traded their franchise player Cousins for a 2016 lotto pick AND Buddy Hield. from the Pelicans.
    3. 76ers draft Nerlens Noel the NOP pick. He has knee issues and will redshirt for 1 year
    4. Kings draft Harry Giles with the NOP pick. He has knee issues and will redshirt for 1 year. They traded down with the NOP pick, and also got Jackson.
    5. 76ers draft a potential franchise PG in Michael Carter-Williams with their own lotto pick. He has questionable shooting.
    6. Kings draft a potential franchise PG in De'Aaron Fox with their own lotto pick. He has questionable shooting.

    Then look at our roster from this year to that year.... this reminds me of their same roster without Evan Turner who they traded at the deadline to tank.
    • Promising rookie PG who can't shoot and struggle to play without the ball. People assume they're a great facilitators and defenders, but they're score-first PGs who don't automatically jump out as franchise players.
      (22yearold MCW vs. 20yearold Fox)
    • Solid starting player who produces, but older for a rebuilding team. Are they as good as the stats, or are they just decent players putting up big stats on a really really bad team?
      (25yearold Thad Young vs. 25yearold Bogdanovic)
    • Semi-young C that is a major question for rebuilding plans. Can they actually be a building block? Are they worth extending for the future?
      (25yearold Hawes vs. 24yearold Willie)
    • Bright young talented scorer who's inconsistent with a very questionable IQ. They lack a real feel for the game. Can they contribute without dominating the ball? Can they contribute elsewhere on the floor? Or does their true value only come from being an on-ball scorer? Are they actually good??? OR is it a fluke?
      (20yearold Wroten vs. 21yearold Skal)
    • Injured rookie Cs who will sit out for a year. Both players were projected #1 overall in pre-draft rankings before questionable knee injuries knocked them down. They redshirt for a year while rehabbing their knees.
      (19yearold Noel vs. 19yearold Giles)
    • Not a great head-on comparison, but a young inconsistent SG on their 2nd team. Is this player a building block? Does the age frame fit with a rebuild? Can they be contributors for the future?
      (24yearold James Anderson vs. 24yearold Hield)
    Then the rest of their roster from that year was composed of young random players who may or may not be good.. Henry Sims, Hollis Thompson, Lorenzo Brown, Daniel Orton, Lavoy Allen, etc. Kings have Justin Jackson, Malachi Richardson, Frank Mason, JaKarr Sampson, etc.

    How weird is that................................................................................................................. Some things may be a stretch like Buddy Hield, but this is as weird as it gets.
  15. SacTownKid

    SacTownKid Well-Known Member

    I don't entirely agree. It's not a perfectly built team by any stretch but when rebuilding through the draft you can get much, much worse results in terms of fit. Vlade has almost gone out of his way to get parts that fit in some manner. There is some definite duplication but it's not unworkable. The issue here is who is that blue print player, or even who are the blueprint players and how should they be used? The highest potential players on the roster with any degree of certainty, and I think we can all agree on this, are Fox, Hield, Bogdanovic, and Skal. In looking at that combination of talent I see fast paced, up and down play, 4 or even 5 out sets with the bigs keeping the lane as clear as possible, pick and pop plays with all three guards getting easy set shots to their bigs, and pick and roll plays that put the other team in bad match ups for once.

    If anything the tragedy of the Sacramento Kings is timing. This roster looks like a perfect core for George Karls drive and dish system. I wonder what the WTF look on his face was like when they ended up trading Cuz anyway. Lol. On the flipside Joerger seemed like a great coach for Cuz.
    Last edited: Nov 1, 2017
  16. KingsFanSince85

    KingsFanSince85 Well-Known Member

    This is the absolute truth many just don't want to admit. DMC was an easy target for those that didn't like him or his demeanor, but the reality is the Kings couldn't ever surround him with any meaningful talent. They missed on every subsequent first round draft pick, with the jury still out on the likes of Willie Cauley-Stein. Had they drafted any one of Klay Thompson, Kawhi Leonard, Damian Lillard or Giannis Antetokounmpo, we'd be having a much different conversation. Hell, if the Maloofs hadn't gone gaga over Tyreke Evans and taken Stephen Curry the draft before they landed Cousins, things would have been much different. But they didn't do any of those things and instead selected players that largely couldn't even remain in the league.

    The point is, there were players there for the taking and the Kings always guessed wrong. The Pelicans with Cousins and another elite talent in Anthony Davis don't even have enough talent around them to win, so how could anyone reasonably have expected Boogie to win all by himself in Sacramento?? Landing a second star would have provided a big boost, but they still needed to hit on another pick or two like the Warriors did to build their current team.

    With Cuz now gone, you see the effects of not having a player that can consistently score 25+ per game and control the boards. This current team simply can't score the ball consistently at all. As I said numerous times during the Cousins trade debate, you hope to get lucky in the lame @$$ lottery to land a top 1-3 pick in order to get a player like Cousins. So when you have that type of player, you shouldn't ever let them go. Unfortunately the Kings did and now they are back to looking for a player to impact the game just like he did.
  17. SacTownKid

    SacTownKid Well-Known Member

    If they did they wouldn't make it to 5. Fox has physical gifts that set him way apart from other players of the persuasion you mention though. The truth is any player has a style of play that they can flourish in and weaknesses that will make them look worse than they are. We have seen flashes of potential here and there. Unfortunately it's usually when the game is far out of hand.
  18. SacTownKid

    SacTownKid Well-Known Member

    It's kind of what can happen when you start over with a 19 year old centerpiece. Comparing that to a 27 year old DMC is apples an oranges. Still, this team has talent, and mostly offensive talent at that, the struggles shouldn't be nearly of this magnitude.

    And you can always second guess drafts. It's hard to really judge anything outside of what's going on now. Vivek entrusted the wrong people at first, and anything that happened in the final years of the Maloofs isn't even worth discussing. I do think Vlade has done a much better, and more thoughtful job than his predecessors.
    KingsFanSince85 likes this.
  19. 206Fan

    206Fan Well-Known Member

    I went on that weird loop trying to reply to this comment. I think the Kings are in trouble if we don't find a franchise player in 2018. Not having a 2019 pick screws us completely over. We have 1 more chance to get it right. Look at the 76ers. It took them 4 years from rebuilding to actually hit their franchise player. This is why we couldn't whiff on the 2017 picks. We desperately need a Ben Simmons on this team. If we don't get a Cousins-caliber player in 2018, this franchise is screwed. It's early in the season, but I don't see a franchise player on this team.

    It's hard for me to completely buy the idea of Fox as a franchise player. 7 game sample is extremely small and way too early to rule out anything, but if I were to strictly judge on these 7 games+college, he doesn't check all my marks for a franchise player yet. He's a scoring PG, but I'm not even sure which part of the floor he can consistently score from. He can't shoot 3s, however his mid-range stroke is decent. He can get to the basket, but tries his hardest to avoid contact. He settles for floaters and actually only made 5/21 from the areas right outside the restricted zone on top of the key and baselines outside the paint. Even when he does get to the rim, he's not a great finisher. For even further evidence of him trying to avoid contact, Fox has averaged 13.7FGA a game, but only 1.9FTA a game. I think that's the lowest FTR of any PG in the NBA. That's horrible considering how much he attacks the basket. Getting to the foul line has always been a good indicator of successful NBA scorers.
    When he has the ball in ISOs and he starts to move, opposing teams sag the crap out of him and mostly defend for the drive. They crowd under the basket and dare him to shoot the mid-range. He's been making them at a decent rate, but that's way too easy to defend.
    For a rookie PG, he's going through the growing pains of running an offense. I'm not going to fault him for not being a good playmaker at this stage. He makes the extra pass, but he'll have occasional tunnel vision when he attacks.

    Fox has been hyped up as our lord and savior, but I'm not ready to buy his stocks right now. Again, it's too early to write him off as a franchise player, but if I were to judge him on the 7 games+college, I don't think he's a franchise player. It's easy for me to look at Ben Simmons and automatically anoint him as one. Can't do the same with Fox.
    SLAB likes this.
  20. KingsFanGER

    KingsFanGER Well-Known Member

    The issue is, that our draft choices dont fit our free agent choices at all, which makes our roster a mess.
    It's the same problem every year. Kings never go all in on one particular playstyle.
    With Cousins still in SAC it was plain common sense to strengthen the wings and to aquire floor spacers with good defense. But the Kings drafted mainly big man prospects and in Fa went after guys like Rondo or Koufos.

    Now with Skal and Fox as the highest upside players, it would be common sense to go after athletic players, who would be able to run the floor with them and guys, who lock in on D and get deflections and steals, in order to create more fastbreak opportunities.
    Guys like Simmons, Jamychal Green, Justin Holiday or even old, tough dudes like Tony Allen were obtainable.
    Instead we go after a slow, aging post player, a slow, old SG/SF and a PG, who is best in systems with a controlled pace as the secondary ball handler.

    Not only do we create a log Jam at the big man Spots, locking our last years 13th pick to the bench in a rebuilding year ( and thats with Giles still inactive). We also force our young guys to play alongside some dudes, who simply can't keep up with the pace we should run in order for our young players to be successful.

    It's the DMC situation all over again. Kings simply seem to be unable to go all in on one particular plan and continue to try to force square pegs into round holes.
    The Effort Police, SLAB and 206Fan like this.
  21. SacTownKid

    SacTownKid Well-Known Member

    True to some extent. The thing is though what was the intent behind it? I think the idea was supplementing the youth with veteran experience, not necessarily for on the floor reasons. The problem I've seen is it appears that they are utilizing that in reverse order. Joerger is almost supplementing his vets with young players. That's not what was advertised and why I believe the more action of Fox, Buddy, Bogdan, Skal, and Willie we see, the better the end result.

    We've discussed Vlades moves on the board to no end already, but going back to day 1, Vlade has guided the ship in the right direction and towards the right types of players and positional needs. It's the alternate routes after the first option didn't pan out that's been questionable. Even so, he hasn't loaded up the cap on heavy burdens or anchors although I would have loved to seen a little less commitment on signings that this summer most certainly have the looks of coach picks.

    Right now the biggest problem is the development and direction on the floor.
  22. SacTownKid

    SacTownKid Well-Known Member

    Yeah, I don't think you can be sold one way or the other quite yet. It's probably safer not to either if your in the Kings FO. Putting him in the best possible situation to succeed as an individual talent is the surest way to find out though. We need to see a turn in that direction in my opinion. The sooner the better.

    Ben Simmons has his own weaknesses from what I've seen both with shooting and especially defense. I'd like to see Fox, Buddy, and Skal in a position to produce like that and then see where it goes. Kind of like what Philly is doing with Simmons. They see great passing potential so instead of trying and turn him into a traditional post up big, they put the ball in his hands and make him their PG. Now THAT'S what the Kings coaching staff needs to do. Don't bury them for what they can't do, let 'em run with what they can.
  23. KingsFanGER

    KingsFanGER Well-Known Member

    Completely disagree on Vlade. And basketball is still played on the floor not off the floor. There were more than enough FA capable to play the role model for our young guys, while still fitting with what we should do on the floor.
    Nokidding likes this.
  24. King Baller

    King Baller Well-Known Member

    Except there is not one person from ownership or management still here from the 2000's. Who are you referring to?
  25. KingsFanGER

    KingsFanGER Well-Known Member

    To nobody in particular, but more to the abstract concept of top-down mismanagement. I worded that badly. Sorry.
    And we all know that the reasons, why this team is poorly managed have changed since Vivek took over and also since Vlades tenure. Sadly the results remain the same.
    King Baller likes this.
  26. sono

    sono Well-Known Member

    Meantime, Boogie is emerging as a leader of the Pelicans, with Davis as his sidekick. Vlade/Vivek got no guts nor brains to pull off a trade or two to surround him with complementary talent, when they had the chance.
    CVKingsfan, HndsmCelt and SLAB like this.
  27. Tetsujin

    Tetsujin The Game Thread Dude

    Boogie through 7 games: 29.4 ppg, 13.6 rpg, 5.9 apg, 1.6 spg, 2.1 bpg.

    Those aren't just great numbers, those are historic, all-time great numbers.
  28. King Baller

    King Baller Well-Known Member

    The Fellas will lace them up again tonight in Boston. At this point you have to look for the small victories. Bogi looks like a NBA starting caliber player as does Fox. Buddy is in a severe slump but i expect him to pull out of it. Hill is obviously still hampered by the groin injury but should improve. Still not pretty but it is early in the rebuild. Remember that Rookie year Kevin Durant led that Sonics/Thunder team to a 20 win season.
    CVKingsfan and SLAB like this.
  29. Telemachus

    Telemachus Well-Known Member

    Is that you Bricklayer? :p
    King Baller likes this.
  30. LPKingsFan

    LPKingsFan Well-Known Member

    Rebuilding isn't pretty. Young players don't necessarily develop in a straight line, with progress evident game-to-day.
    King Baller likes this.

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