Are raw materials for a good team already in place? (split)

Discussion in 'Kings Rap' started by Larry David, Jan 1, 2018.

  1. Larry David

    Larry David Well-Known Member

    Your post is sincerely great and I agree with most of it. My least favorite thing is when people find the weakest link and engage that point or build up a straw man to knock it down. (Many are Jedi masters of that move.) That’s sincerely not what I’m doing here. I’m not looking to come at you or your post.

    Instead it’s a broader question because I see the sentiment from quote above from a lot here. So to anyone in particular, not limited to pshn ... really? I just can’t see that at all. Like at all.

    I really like Fox (well at least Kentucky and the first 3 weeks in Sacramento) and I think they’ve got pieces and might even pull a rabbit out of their hat on a couple of guys jumping a level above reasonable projections. So there is stuff here, but still massive gaps for crafting 3 man core and probably another top 6 player beyond that.

    Putting the Kings ability and method of development methods aside, do folks really think the raw materials for a really good team are already in place and it’s just a matter of time until our ship comes in?
  2. Kingsfan23

    Kingsfan23 Well-Known Member

    Before the season I thought they had some of the ingredients, but Skal/JJ have really hurt so far.. Thought they were solid 3/4 prospects... I guess there is still time. Overall though, the youth movement has been a 2/10 this year on the expectation meter.. part of being a fan of this team
  3. pshn80

    pshn80 Well-Known Member

    Yes, this-folk does. I don’t mean we never need more but that we have talent now, as much as we can handle now. We may have our star or two but we will get what we need as time goes by. Remember, a high draft choice does not guarantee a star and a low one can get us a star. We are well fixed for now.
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  4. John Galt

    John Galt Well-Known Member


    WCS has shown some flashes of being really legit despite my sometimes mean-spirited skepticism about him. 51+% chance he turns out to be really god. The org's stubbornness on him might pay off - he seems to have a great attitude.
    Buddy has shown legit 6th man assassin potential (I don't think he's a legit starter). But he can fill it up and be so frustrating the way Jamal Crawford does. I'm not really a fan, but I think he can be a significant 6th man.
    Bogdan is a pro's pro I think and I think can be a piece of a perennial winner. Some are "meh" on him, I'm really high on him - he's been a champion, played high level clutch pro ball.
    Fox... there is no reason to think less of him now than we did on draft day. Needs a year to put on weight. I'm not discouraged about him at all. I think he dinged himself up early in the year (when he fell on that hip).

    So there is I think half of a really good 8 man rotation (3 starters... yes I think Fox, Bogie, WCS can be 3/5 of a really good starting 5)

    Skal is back to square one. Giles is at square zero but there's some mystique about him. If either of those guys turn into solid pieces... that's 5. Hit the jackpot with both - we're up to 6. Won't be shocked if they both wash out but they could also both work out.

    Get a surprise mystery offensive starting SF in FA = 7

    Draft a top 3 blue chipper (BPA) = 8 and we're a real good team in 2019.

    Jackson, Mason, Papagiannis fill out the end of the bench along with 'whoever'.

    Current dead wood on the roster: all the vets & Malachi & probably Papagiannis.
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  5. VF21

    VF21 #KingsFansForever Staff Member Contributor

    I hope nobody minds too much, but I split this out of the Grizzlies game thread as I believe it asks a legitimate question that goes far beyond the discussion of the Grizz game. :)
  6. upinsmoke

    upinsmoke Well-Known Member

    I'm fully on board still. The point I reiterate is there is no reason to hope for loses because they are naturally going to happen with the majority of our roster being inexperienced players. I really like what we have with our recent draftees with Malachi giving me the most concern but I'm still holding out some hope there.
    kingsfan1984, origkds and King Baller like this.
  7. Joshoua

    Joshoua Well-Known Member

    I think we have our starters at
    PG: Fox
    SG: Bogdan
    C: WCS

    Than we have good to great 6th man in Hield back up pg in Mason. We should be able to pick up our SF or PF this draft in Porter, Doncic, Ayton, and Bagley.

    Also with the 2018 draft pick one of those guys will be our go to scorer with Fox and Bogdan being our other ball handler/scorer. Where we need to hit the jackpot in is with Skal or Giles. For the love of god Joerger let Skal play and don’t pull him build his confidence. He could really be a go too scorer off the bench along with Hield that’s 2 very good scorer and a good pg in Mason. We have a making of a very good bench.
  8. kingsboi

    kingsboi Well-Known Member

    Trill and Bogs have received a good amount of minutes on most game days if they are defending and not turning the ball over every other possession. The rest show very small flashes and glimpses of being role players and that's about all I can take away from this at this point. Fox is being handicapped at the moment and we are all anxiously awaiting for the debut of Giles so he can woo us with his potential and skillset, if any.
  9. SLAB

    SLAB Well-Known Member

    I don't see it. Maybe Giles gets healthy and turns out great. Maybe Fox fills out and learns a jumpshot. Maybe Skal grows a basketball IQ.

    Hield... He gets hot. Then he's terrible. I'm very biased against him and I know I always will be ((to no fault of his own)) so my opinion admittedly isn't valid.

    WCS... eh. A perfect complimentary player. Shouldn't have to be relied on to be a main contributor, but here we are.

    Bogs... super solid. I like him a lot. But, Star? I don't see it. He'd be a great piece of a winning team, but he alone isn't the guy to get you there.

    Honestly.... I've never been less enthused about a Kings team. I hope I'm wrong. But there's so little light at the end of the tunnel of losses.
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  10. VF21

    VF21 #KingsFansForever Staff Member Contributor

    NEVER?!?!?! Come on. What about the Spencer Hawes years? The couple of years before DMC were pretty depressing, especially in hindsight.
  11. ESP47

    ESP47 Well-Known Member

    I'm not too enthusiastic about the parts we have so far.

    I don't think WCS is a starter on a playoff team. At least not yet. He's way too inconsistent. Offensive game is improving. Overall defense is solid. Rebounding and shot blocking are both weak. One night he's an impact player and the next he disappears. He was great for us the last month of last year and then it was like he started as a rookie all over again this year. I can't call him an important part of the core unless he either becomes more consistent or becomes the defensive anchor we thought he would be.

    Hield is one of my favorites but I'm seeing him as a high level 6th man these days. If he can improve his handle and create his own shot at some point, he's a starter for sure. His defense has improved quite a bit from last year.

    Bogdan is a poor mans Ginobili from what I can see. I'd like to see him get selfish and see what kinds of numbers he can put up by looking for his shot more. He has potential to be a high teens scorer but his scoring is very inconsistent so far because he's always passing up shots to look for his teammates. Good problem to have.

    Skal, I'd hold on to until the bitter end. He's probably never going to be a good defender so he's going to need to put points on the board. He has excellent footwork but needs to work on using his footwork to get him closer to the basket, rather than using it to create separation from his defender that puts him further from the basket. I think he can be a potent scorer off the bench with the possibility of becoming a starter if he puts it all together.

    I have no idea what Fox can do until Joerger changes up his offense. Until then, I can't even really make a judgment on him.

    Giles, we have no idea yet obviously.

    The rest of the guys are just potential backups at best in my opinion.
    gunks likes this.
  12. The Effort Police

    The Effort Police Well-Known Member

    If Skal and Giles BOTH hit, then WCS shouldn't be your starting C. There are essentially 96 minutes to give out to the two big spots so if all of them break right then you can play all of them. I also disagree with the notion that Bogdan is our starting SG. I think it's Buddy; I'd much rather see Bogdan in the bench combo guard role a la Manu (though I hate making the Ginobili comparison).

    What I'm hoping for with my ideal, everything breaks right in this scenario is to see this by the 2019-20 season, with these guys getting the lion's share of the minutes now that the vet's contracts are all gone.
    PG: 22 year old Fox
    SG: 26 year old Buddy
    SF: 20 year old Doncic
    PF: 21 year old Giles
    C: 23 year old and more filled out Skal
    Bench guard: 27 year old Bogdan
    Bench combo big: 26 year old WCS.

    I don't see Malachi, Jackson, or Papagiannis as having any future with us. The talent is just not there in my mind. And to reiterate, if even half these guys hit then we cannot under any circumstances have any veteran contracts on the books by the 2020 offseason. Lost in all of this is that eventually we have to pay these guys; there needs to be as much cap room as possible for the 2020 offseason and beyond.
  13. jcassio

    jcassio Well-Known Member

    Here's our ten youngsters with my thoughts on how important each one can be to the Kings in 2-3 years.
    Bogie - He'll be our starting SG and a key playmaker for us. Borderline all-star potential.
    WCS - He'll be our starting Center eventually averaging 20/10 + over 2 blocks per game. Another borderline all-star.
    Fox - He'll be our starting PG - if we can muster 3 years worth of patience to allow him to develop into the position. I think he'll average 17-20 points, 6-8 assists and 2+ steals. Another borderline all-star.
    Hield - He'll be our instant offense guy ala Jamal Crawford. If he developes further and can become a quality starting SG, so much the better in terms of giving us an asset. But I won't be disappointed if he simply becomes our Jamal.
    Mason - He'll be our backup PG and, unless something happens to Fox, he'll never get the chance to be THE PG for the Kings. But as long as he's a King, he'll be a quality backup for us.
    Giles - no idea. Could be the next Chris Webber or the next DeJuan Blair.
    Jackson - no idea. Right now he doesn't look like he'll eventually become our starting SF. But with a few seasons under his belt, he might eventually become a 6-8 version of Tayshaun Prince, which wouldn't be such a bad thing.
    Labissiere - too soon to tell. Like with Giles, Skal could be the next Chris Webber or a career underachiever.
    Papa - Lateral quickness is not there, so it doesn't look like he'll become a starting center. But on the right team, I think he could develop into a quality backup center.
    Richardson - no idea. If he gets some meaningful minutes this year, we might find out. He seems to take pride in his defense, and he seems to have taken control over the chucking we saw in the past. So those are good signs.
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  14. upinsmoke

    upinsmoke Well-Known Member

    I think in the end we will have to choose between Malachi and Jackson but we can definitely keep the majority of our young guys without too much difficulty. Keep this group together for the long haul and it will bloom imo.
    VF21 likes this.
  15. mac

    mac Well-Known Member

    Skal should spend this off-season working with Hakeem or something
  16. gunks

    gunks Well-Known Member

    Err ....

    Fox and Skal (maybe Giles) are wild cards. High potential prospects who haven't done jack yet in the league.

    Buddy, Bogs, and WCS all have the makings of awesome complimentary pieces, but I don't think any of them are untouchables as far as value goes. That's not a knock on them either, I just don't think any of them will ever be allstars.

    Papa was a dumb pick. Mason is in a slump but I like him, he should bounce back. Jackson, Mali.... who cares. Glue guys at best.

    FA yields the usual depressing results year after year. Overpaying for scrubs, while decent players take less to play elsewhere.

    Our core is all condiments and no hot dog (apologies for the weird food metaphor, I need to eat). We're in business if we land a top 5 pick (assuming Vlade doesn't get cute and **** it up), but if not we're a perennial 10th seed garbage team.

    I hate rooting for lins, I really do, but if Z-bo and co lead us to that promised land of 30 wins, that so many of you are super pumped for, you can add another 3-5 years to this decade + rebuild.

    No, we do not have the makings of a good team. But if we get a high pick, we might be interesting next season.
    Last edited: Jan 2, 2018
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  17. Čarolija

    Čarolija Well-Known Member

    While I am not really thrilled with Kings current make up, it is a LOT, LOT more encouraging than the 17 win 2008-09 team :eek::eek::eek:
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  18. fansinceday1

    fansinceday1 Well-Known Member

    Your post best describes where I stand with this team. There will be occasional games like the cavs game that will be exciting, other than that I haven't been this down on this franchise since the final nail was put in the adelman/Petrie era. I have zero faith in joeger bringing up these young guys correctly.
    One of my other sports teams is killing it now so if one of the teams I follow wants to be known as the Cleveland browns of the NBA so be it. I'll follow from a distance. Not get too involved. The kings are just kinda "there". Something to watch while I'm eating dinner or background noise as I work on my car. Happy new year ya'll.
    SLAB likes this.
  19. King Baller

    King Baller Well-Known Member

    Hill and Heild are number 6 and 7 currently in NBA 3 point percentage. I think the game plan should be to get them more open looks. I also think Bogie and Mason could stand more open looks at threes.
    Fox looks like a game changer and will need to mature and build his body up to withstand the rigors of the NBA. Fox and Mason may both need to take their aggressiveness in the paint down a notch to a controlled level to avoid injuries. Bouncing off of big men in the NBA requires a strong body and control.
    Jackson and Malachi need time to develop their games and roles. I think Malachi may be valuable as a defender if he can work at the craft. Jackson could be a go to scorer since he shoots the 3 well and has the nice floater. Needs to add a mid-range shot, stop on a dime and shoot the 10 to 12 footer.
    WCS is the Kings best defender and he is developing a nice offensive game in the paint. Needs time and playmakers dropping him dimes.
    Bogie is still learning the ins and outs of the NBA. He is being challenged most games on a physical level and is mostly doing well. He is a good playmaker and could be a volume scorer given time and enough touches.
    Skal needs to be more agressive and build up his lower body strength. Skal and WCS need to focus on rebounding and defense.
    Papa is still a project at this point. He sets great picks and that alone could make him a valuable bench player if surrounded by shooters. Needs to improve blocking out and defending players his own size.
    ZBO is still a beast down low. Joerger once said of ZBO that his role was "In case of emergency break glass" and that is what he excels at, he gets you a hoop when the other team is on a run.
    Temple is the teams best defender of players 1 - 3.
    Vince Carter still shows flashes of amazing at times but is mostly a defensive signal caller at this point of his career.
    Giles is the mystery man. Word coming out of Kings HQ is that he is very good in scrimmages being the Kings best passer, etc. He draws comparisons to CWebb. But will his legs hold up? DeJuan Blair had 3 pretty good seasons for the Spurs with no ACL's in either knee.

    In my opinion we Fans need to heed Coach Joerger's Christmas wish and show some "patience."
    slashing4, VF21, Suicide King and 2 others like this.
  20. kingsfan1984

    kingsfan1984 Well-Known Member

    Completely agree. At least with Vlade's picks all hope of them being a decent NBA player doesnt vanish the moment he steps on the court ala Trob or Jimmer
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  21. Kingster

    Kingster Well-Known Member

    The only player I'm certain of is Bogs. That's because the evidence is right there before my eyes - he is a good NBA player. The only question with him is his ceiling.

    I see great potential in Fox, both because his athleticism and intelligence, but there is a ways to go between here and there for him. He could be an All Star, but he could also have some injury issues because of his thin frame that prevent him from being a good player. He's certainly not Wall in that he cant' just drive in the paint, throw his body around, and go crashing to the floor on a regular basis and still have an NBA career. It's ridiculous to be down on him in his rookie year; he was a point guard project with a potentially high ceiling from the very beginning and it will take him a while.

    WCS seems to be improving, but he still leaves me wondering about his consistency as a rebounder and his impact on the defensive end of the floor. I still see a player more interested in showcasing whatever offensive talent he has (for his upcoming contract) rather than putting great effort on the defensive end. He needs to to be physical in defense and rebounding. I just want to see him impact the game more on a regular basis than be a complementary player. Look at Sampson and what he did in his brief stint with the big boys. Here is a player who is athletic and physical and who positively impacted the game. He did that in a very brief stint with the Kings. WCS needs to have more Sampson in his game for me to be a believer. Lastly, I'd just love it if WCS would defensively bother an opponent enough so that there was a little altercation on the floor. I'm not asking for a bench brawl, but c'mon, when has the guy gotten into it with anybody on the opposition?

    Hield - he can shoot, no doubt. But to use his word, he's "showcasing" his skills, one of which is his dribbling skill or lack thereof. I sometimes wonder if he knows he's in a game and not in a skills camp. He can be very good if he would just focus more on moving without the ball on offense. On defense, he's never going to make much of a mark, other than an occasional steel. He can rebound well though for a guard if he puts his mind to it. All in all, he just doesn't have the quickness necessary for a top tier NBA two guard, but he can be an excellent "shootist" in time. Lastly, I appreciate that Hield is primarily a shooter and therefore has to shoot to be effective, but I do find him stretching that maxim to selfish proportions at times. If he is guarded and Bogs isn't, I would like to see him pass the ball to Bogs.

    Jackson - shows the BBIQ. Needs to get more consistent with his shot, but especially needs to improve in defense and rebounding. He's one of the "light in the shorts" kind of guys on this team. A couple years of strength training will show what he can become. I sure do like his creativity and BBIQ on offense though.

    Skal is in the "light in the shorts" group also. As I've said before, he's two years away due to his strength issues. We need to be more patient with him than probably anybody on this team, with the exception of Papa. I want very much to see Skal over a 10-game stint where he plays 30 minutes a game. I hate it when he has his back to the basket and he dribbles against the defender, trying to get position for a jump hook; invariably, he goes nowhere. I love it when he gets the ball with his back to the basket and turns with aggression to face his man and then drives with aggression to the basket. My advice to Skal would be: You can't be too aggressive. Think aggression, be aggression. If you foul out, so be it, but do it aggressively. The pendulum needs to swing far to the aggression side before it can it can find the happy medium.

    Papa - has the offensive skills, no doubt, but can he ever guard anyone? And what role will he have in a 3 point league? Twenty years ago I'd be much more comfortable with Papa's future because of the physicallity that was allowed and the lack of 3 point shooting. Today, I'm just not sure if he's one of the last dinosaurs. I'd really like to know what Vlade's views on the young man would be if he were under a truth serum.

    In sum, the raw materials are not in place. In particular I want more athleticism and length and determination on this team, more physicallity. How about a couple of Sampsons with more offensive skill? This team just doesn't have the raw physicallity that it needs on a night-to-night basis to defend well and to rebound well, and therefore to compete well.
  22. Suicide King

    Suicide King Well-Known Member

    In regards to your statements on Skal, spot on. I would much rather he be in foul trouble due to being aggressive on offense vs. making the same defensive errors game after game.
  23. ESP47

    ESP47 Well-Known Member

    I agree with you on WCS. You're right, he hasn't gotten into any altercations that I can think of. Bogdan has a couple times so far this year. Hell, even Buddy got into one with Cousins. WCS probably just doesn't have it in him. He seems like a really nice, laid back guy and he hasn't shown that fire yet in his college or pro career so I doubt that guy will ever surface.

    I don't agree as much with Buddy. This guy is our best shooter other than Hill and one of the best 3 point shooters in the league. He needs to do what he does best and he's pretty efficient at it. He's 2nd on the team in attempts per game and I think that's where he should be. He's not a ball stopper and he's not a chucker. He only has a year and a half of pro basketball under his belt so I'm ok with him finding his way out there. The more turnovers he has now by trying to do too much will probably result in less turnovers down the road when he starts realizing what can and cannot be done on the basketball court. He will probably wind up being predominantly a spot up shooter in the future but for now it's best that he experiments with finding his own shot because who knows, he could improve his handle and become better at getting his own shot if he works on it now while the Kings are rebuilding. I'd rather not clip his wings at the moment because we don't quite know what we have and the dude has proven to be a workaholic in practice.
    206Fan, kingsfan1984 and Suicide King like this.
  24. ockingsfan

    ockingsfan Well-Known Member

    I think the Kings have good building blocks. I think we will have many of the same players 2 or 3 years from now, growing into their roles. These are the players I see in the rotation 2-3 years from now.

    PF: Giles / Skal
    SF: 2018 Lottery Draft Pick / Justin Jackson
    C: WCS
    SG: Bogdan / Buddy
    PG: Fox / Mason

    I think that Papa G and Malichi may not be around 2-3 years from now. Malichi has talent, but I'm just not sure if he will find a spot in the rotation. Papa G is just a big question mark at this point.

    I think we are set at PG and SG for the next 6-8 years or more.

    We need either Skal or Giles to step up and take the PF position.

    WCS will be a good Center/ Power Forward hybrid, I can see him being a 15/8/1.5 blks per game big in a couple of years.

    We need an impact alpha scorer at small forward in this next draft. I want either Luka Doncic or Michael Porter (or Miles Bridges if we fall and draft 6-8) in this years draft. If one of those guys becomes an alpha scorer for us, I think the Kings will be set with a very high, potentially explosive line up.

    I think the future is still very bright, we just need the kids to develop and pick up a solid scorer in this years draft.

    Also, I'm hoping to see more uptempo play and pushing the ball up court from coach Joeger, once ZBo contract expires or he is traded.
  25. Kingster

    Kingster Well-Known Member

    Fair enough on Hield. I just wish that he would "find his way" to move more a lot without the ball and shoot without dribbling. He can learn those things as well as dribbling when he's on the floor.
  26. mac

    mac Well-Known Member

    I actually think Buddy expends more energy than anyone on the team running around without the ball (on both ends), so I'm surprised by your opinion. Problem is we aren't exactly running plays or screens to get him open.
    206Fan likes this.
  27. The Hammer

    The Hammer Well-Known Member

    I think at least half are. I'll say 60%. And I mean that as a minimum. As alluded to above, we have enough talented youth that you may see one or more jump to the next level and exceed expectations, so one or more major piece may come from an event like that.

    But aside from that, yes, we have a good solid foundation of talent. And I include one Frank Mason in that.

    For the purposes of this discussion, I'll think in terms of six players, and won't even give a thought to positions. This is very "off the top"... but here are 4 of a set of 6 (future) real players we will need to compete at a high level:


    See... wasn't too hard right? We have pieces. And what we also have a lot of are POTENTIAL pieces. Taking the next step in this thought game... here a group of potential serious players: "keepers with a chance of being a top 6-7 player on a competitive team"

    Hill if he wants it and is willing to change his role


    Still willing to keep Papa in the woodshed and see what happens. And I'm still rooting for Malachi. We have no permanent towel waivers on this team, and that's kind of exciting. My despair has a floor thanks to that.

    Temple, Randolph, Carter are just (decent) furniture at this point. Usable but will eventually be replaced.

    Koufos is becoming something of a cosmic principle at this point. He's like the drone note in Indian music. Ridiculed by simpler minds who do not understand his value, but appreciated for what he brings by those who have The Sight.
  28. gunks

    gunks Well-Known Member

    Good news!

    According to ESPN's RPM ratings, Fox is no longer the worst player in the league!

    He's now 3rd worse! Above Mudiay and fellow rookie Jackson (Phoenix's, not ours)!

    Things are looking up!
    Kingsfan23, ESP47 and SLAB like this.
  29. Kingster

    Kingster Well-Known Member

    "More" is a relative term. But I agree that the more players who can pass him the ball when he does move, the better.
  30. Čarolija

    Čarolija Well-Known Member

    Very generous at this point. Only Bogdan have shown at real resemblance of being good NBA players. The rest are showing flashes. Talent and production are two different things. I think he was some genuine talent on the roster and encouraging part is that they all seem to be the hard working types but it doesn't guarantee anything. Way to early to say where we are at other than in terms of pure talent (and not necessarily production) there is some nice talent on this team that with great development could be key complementary pieces on a very good team. None of them have given even a hint of being the centerpiece yet or even an all-star level players. There is certainly potential for a couple of them to reach that level but only the Kings hierarchy could know whether these kids have what it takes.
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