4 on 5 defense

funkykingston

Super Moderator
Staff member
#1
I know this concept from Vivek has been roundly mocked but I don't think anyone has really said WHY it's a horrible idea. So I took a couple minutes and thought about it from the perspective of the players who would have to run it and the opposing coach who would have to scheme against it.

The biggest reason this would never fly is that NBA players would refuse to run it. You could do this on the high school level and possibly on the college level (especially with a small school at a competitive disadvantage and unlikely to win by normal means) but professional players would balk. Primarily because it would skew the statistics of players who would then have to market themselves as free agents largely based on those statistics. If I were a player I'd see that sort of scheme as a detriment to my future value/contracts.

But even if you got a team to buy in, you'd have a 2-2 zone against an NBA offense that would always be able to get an open look. Moreover, if I were the opposing coach I'd use as much ball movement as possible to tire out the defenders who would be constantly either closing out on open players or rotating to help their teammates as they close out.

Any zone also creates issues with rebounding (because you don't actually have a designated man to box out) which would only be exacerbated by being outnumbered. And allowing offensive rebounds would only mean more exhaustion on the guys playing 4 on 5 defense.

Finally, as an opposing coach I'd simply say that whichever of my offensive players was furthest out when the shot went up would sprint back on defense instead of being involved in rebounding, often nullifying the deep outlet pass that is the whole reason for the 4 on 5 concept.

I doubt even Vivek would want the Kings running that stuff for a full game but I'd wager that after a game or two (or even during the first game) any decent NBA coach would make the adjustments to crush the Kings whenever they tried it. It'd essentially be the NBA version of a penalty play except self imposed and the few easy baskets you'd get the other way wouldn't come close to making up the disadvantage.
 

VF21

Super Moderator Emeritus
SME
#2
But, we had 4 on 5 tonight. Reggie went and sat down before DMC checked in. Luckily, they realized the error and Evans got back onto the court.
 
#3
If you missed it, here is video of 4-5 basketball kings style.

Of course it ends with Reggie Evans missing a dunk.
http://thebrooklyngame.com/video-re...play-tries-cherry-pick-misses-wide-open-dunk/

I heard an interview with Nellie and they asked him about 4-5 and he basically (once he realized this was a real question, as he hadn't heard of it) echoed Funky's view. Any decent coach could counter it fairly easily. Just simply have a guy leak back on defense.
 

funkykingston

Super Moderator
Staff member
#6
It seemed to surprise Ray Mccallum more than anyone as he didn't even see Reggie till it was too late.
I don't know that it surprised him so much as Ray just not having the court vision to see him earlier. I like McCallum but he's not a really instinctive PG and I think that's the biggest thing holding him back from a bigger role in the NBA.
 
#7
I know this concept from Vivek has been roundly mocked but I don't think anyone has really said WHY it's a horrible idea. So I took a couple minutes and thought about it from the perspective of the players who would have to run it and the opposing coach who would have to scheme against it.

The biggest reason this would never fly is that NBA players would refuse to run it. You could do this on the high school level and possibly on the college level (especially with a small school at a competitive disadvantage and unlikely to win by normal means) but professional players would balk. Primarily because it would skew the statistics of players who would then have to market themselves as free agents largely based on those statistics. If I were a player I'd see that sort of scheme as a detriment to my future value/contracts.

But even if you got a team to buy in, you'd have a 2-2 zone against an NBA offense that would always be able to get an open look. Moreover, if I were the opposing coach I'd use as much ball movement as possible to tire out the defenders who would be constantly either closing out on open players or rotating to help their teammates as they close out.

Any zone also creates issues with rebounding (because you don't actually have a designated man to box out) which would only be exacerbated by being outnumbered. And allowing offensive rebounds would only mean more exhaustion on the guys playing 4 on 5 defense.

Finally, as an opposing coach I'd simply say that whichever of my offensive players was furthest out when the shot went up would sprint back on defense instead of being involved in rebounding, often nullifying the deep outlet pass that is the whole reason for the 4 on 5 concept.

I doubt even Vivek would want the Kings running that stuff for a full game but I'd wager that after a game or two (or even during the first game) any decent NBA coach would make the adjustments to crush the Kings whenever they tried it. It'd essentially be the NBA version of a penalty play except self imposed and the few easy baskets you'd get the other way wouldn't come close to making up the disadvantage.
All the things you say kind of make sense, but just imagine how good we can be on offense if we dunk it every single play!
but i agree the 4-5 play won't work well enough- but this is NBA 3.0 lets go 3-5!!!

here's how it's gonna look:
Gay and D-will will stay at the opponent half- which will make it impossible for one guy to cover them!
on defense we wil clog the paint with Reggie, Cousins and...SIM BHULLAR!!!
the average fan don't know about it but Sim is in a special Vivek NBA 3.0 program where he's focused on learning the outlet pass.

just think about it with those 3 guys we will get a ton of rebounds and then go for an easy 2 the other side- IT'S PERFECT!!!

we will win a ton of championships, Sim will be the tallest guy to ever lead the league in assists (haha top that Lakers- with your tiny Magic Johnson) and D-Will will score more than the original D-Will have ever scored.

There are no holes in this plan, I dare you to find one!
 
#8
All the things you say kind of make sense, but just imagine how good we can be on offense if we dunk it every single play!
but i agree the 4-5 play won't work well enough- but this is NBA 3.0 lets go 3-5!!!

here's how it's gonna look:
Gay and D-will will stay at the opponent half- which will make it impossible for one guy to cover them!
on defense we wil clog the paint with Reggie, Cousins and...SIM BHULLAR!!!
the average fan don't know about it but Sim is in a special Vivek NBA 3.0 program where he's focused on learning the outlet pass.

just think about it with those 3 guys we will get a ton of rebounds and then go for an easy 2 the other side- IT'S PERFECT!!!

we will win a ton of championships, Sim will be the tallest guy to ever lead the league in assists (haha top that Lakers- with your tiny Magic Johnson) and D-Will will score more than the original D-Will have ever scored.

There are no holes in this plan, I dare you to find one!
for some reason I don't like bhullar. He's an underachieving fat***. Nothing personal against the dude, but he needs more conditioning and skills...
 
#10
Calling someone an "underachieving fat***" is about as personal as it gets.
Well it's personal then. Despite his height, he would not get an opportunity in the NBA on any other team. The sole reason why he even got an opportunity here is because our owner is Indian. If the guy was actually committed to basketball and the NBA, he would not be as big as he is. Screams terrible work ethic from a mile away. It's an insult to athletes everywhere including myself.
 
#13
The kings are having an already tough time defending teams with 5 players on the court.....teams easily get high percentage looks against us.

They would obviously score at a crazy rate.

How are we even gonna cherry pick if they make 90% of their baskets?
 
#14
The kings are having an already tough time defending teams with 5 players on the court.....teams easily get high percentage looks against us.

They would obviously score at a crazy rate.

How are we even gonna cherry pick if they make 90% of their baskets?
vivek would conjure up another tactic from his championship days
 
#15
The kings are having an already tough time defending teams with 5 players on the court.....teams easily get high percentage looks against us.

They would obviously score at a crazy rate.

How are we even gonna cherry pick if they make 90% of their baskets?
Easy, we will be able to pass the ball from the inbounds to the open player before the defense can get there!
 

funkykingston

Super Moderator
Staff member
#16
Is it just me or does it feel like Karl is using us as leverage against Cleveland? I've never seen a HC so vocal and calm about wanting to go to a team.

If Cleveland releases Blatt, I would want him here.
George Karl is a lifer. He wants to coach. And he's done more with less than what the Kings currently have. I don't think he's using the Kings at all. For him to be doing so it assumes that (1) the Cavs are willing to fire Blatt this early (2) LeBron & company would prefer to play for Karl (3) Karl wants to go to Cleveland etc

But the biggest thing is that George Karl doesn't need leverage. He's a known commodity who has always commanded a salary commiserate with that fact.

That said, IF the Cavs job opens up and he's offered both then from a purely basketball perspective I'd obviously expect him to choose the Cleveland gig. Which is why if Ranadive and D'Alessandro actually have any intention of inking him to coach the Kings they should get moving on it already.

The fact that they haven't makes me think they never intended to and if it happens at all it will be due to pressure from unhappy fans.
 
#17
Is it just me or does it feel like Karl is using us as leverage against Cleveland? I've never seen a HC so vocal and calm about wanting to go to a team.

If Cleveland releases Blatt, I would want him here.
It's you. Karl wanted to come here 2weeks ago and blatt/cavs had no problems everything was good how could he see the future. Karl could have simply been hired 2-3days ago but we are not interested in him.
 
#18
Is it just me or does it feel like Karl is using us as leverage against Cleveland? I've never seen a HC so vocal and calm about wanting to go to a team.

If Cleveland releases Blatt, I would want him here.
Oh God - yes please!

David Blatt would make us look great in no time. I'd rather have him than Karl.

But it will never happen - Blatt loves BBall and would never agree to run the 3.0 uptempo circuss...
Too much integrity, IQ and common sense for that.
Not even if his job depended on that.
(Actually, not even if his life did)

Shame. would probably still get us to the Playoffs and even beat Malone as the best influence/inspiration/mentor for Cuz.
 

VF21

Super Moderator Emeritus
SME
#22
Do people not get it Mullin is the next coach. Not Karl/blatt or any other coach that would make sense it's Mullin.
Again, WHY would Mullin give up the post he currently has? I'm going to keep asking that until one of you Mullin conspiracy theorists come up with a logical answer.
 
#23
Again, WHY would Mullin give up the post he currently has? I'm going to keep asking that until one of you Mullin conspiracy theorists come up with a logical answer.
He thinks he can coach the team and be successful.
If Vivek/PDA knew he wasn't gonna take the job why wouldn't Karl be here already? Come June cavs/NO will be open and he dame sure ain't picking us over those 2. And if you don't believe they are saving the spot for Mullin than you believe that there interest in Karl is at 0 because the value VDN/Jackson over him which is just as bad.
 
#24
are you guys serious about wanting David Blatt here? :confused:
Blatt isn't a bad coach he's just being handi-capped by Kyrie Irving and Kevin Love...............two guys who put up big numbers but neither of them plays any defense or makes anyone around them better. I think it's starting to become apparent that Kevin Love's failure in Minnesota was in large part due to him. He doesn't seem to have that Winner's Mentality on the NBA level.

The big question with Cleveland is can Lebron turn these guys into winners? Lebron is so good, plays defense, hustles, and makes everyone so much better, that maybe over the course of the season guys like Irving, Love, and Waiters will eventually buy in.
 

funkykingston

Super Moderator
Staff member
#25
Again, WHY would Mullin give up the post he currently has? I'm going to keep asking that until one of you Mullin conspiracy theorists come up with a logical answer.
I have no idea what Chris Mullin's thought processes or aspirations are. But just as a logical answer of why I could see it being the case I'd say so he could be directly involved in an NBA team. Right now he's an advisor. Not an owner, not a GM and not a coach. If he wants any real measure of control he'd have to be in one of those roles.

I know the tendency is to wonder why a guy with a cushy gig (advisor, broadcaster etc) would give that up for the grind, stress and criticism that comes with a front office or coaching job but that's the price to being directly involved with the sport you love at the highest level.

Honestly I don't care WHY Mullin might take the job, I just don't want to see it happen.