[2017] The Finals

Who ya got?


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Warhawk

Give blood and save a life!
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This is the first game I kinda watched (was reading the excellent "The Lost City of the Monkey God: A True Story" and had the game on in the background because nothing else good was on). Go Cavs!

In all honesty, even when they were up at the end of the 3rd I still expected them to lose. Glad they didn't fold down the stretch.
 
This is the first game I kinda watched (was reading the excellent "The Lost City of the Monkey God: A True Story" and had the game on in the background because nothing else good was on). Go Cavs!

In all honesty, even when they were up at the end of the 3rd I still expected them to lose. Glad they didn't fold down the stretch.
That's how I feel watching the kings :(
 
We should be prepping for an insane game 5 tied at 2-2!! Oh well, you know warriors have a little bit of doubt in them after what happened last year. And the cavs are more than capable of bringing this thing back home.
 
That was the best game I've ever seen that was never even within 10 points.

One of the worst reffed games I've ever seen as well. Cleveland was giving the Lakers a run for their money with all those free throws in the 1st quarter. Then that take back on the Draymond tech. The BS flagrant on Love when his arm accidentally hit Durant's head. Allowing Zaza to punch at Shumpert's crotch twice. No call on Draymond clobbering Tristan Thompson on the way down. What the hell are these refs thinking? I wouldn't mind if they just swallowed their whistles and let these guys play but it's the inconsistency of it that drives everyone crazy.
 
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VF21

Super Moderator Emeritus
SME
Don't tell Cavs fans it doesn't matter. It was a very strangely reffed game - swallowing their whistles on clear fouls and then totally inconsistent on foul types. An awful, awful CLEAR backcourt violation with no call - maybe the worst miss in the game....Irving dribbles it off his own foot and play-on.....
You misunderstood what I was saying, although admittedly I could have said it better. It appeared to me the Warriors got the vast benefit of a lot of calls in a game they were going to lose irregardless.
 
After watching Kyrie in the finals for the past 2 years, I don't know how anybody would want to pass on a prospect like DSJ. They have very very similar playing styles.

Kyrie is one of the league's best shot creator.
 
Wow! It's amazing how much discussion there has been about the officiating in a 22 point BLOWOUT! The Cavs scored 49 in the 1st quarter and set the record for 3's made in a Finals game but, yeah, it was all the officials fault! Weird!
Cavs still would have won, but refs took the game in the first quarter. The opposing team shooting that many free throws is deflating because refs are telling you no defense is allowed.
 
Wow! It's amazing how much discussion there has been about the officiating in a 22 point BLOWOUT! The Cavs scored 49 in the 1st quarter and set the record for 3's made in a Finals game but, yeah, it was all the officials fault! Weird!
It wasn't poor refing as much as the Warriors flat-footed for the 1st quarter. It was a role-reversal of teams for the first time in the series.
Curry's play went down the most of any Warrior game to game, although Thompson's shooting wasn't much better. Then you have JR Smith playing closer to how he was envisioned. Kerr was fishing around his line-ups for inertia but it was never found thanks much to Curry who disappointed. Pachulia is akin to a hockey goon out there.....Kings front court players are all more talented than him. The Warriors don't need the extra talent, but that's where its "lacking".
 
Come on! Are you serious? So it's the refs job to make sure the FT's are equal in the first quarter? Did you watch the game? The Cavs came out with HUGE intensity and were attacking hard. When you do that you're going to get calls.
So is each team supposed to have an equal amount of free throws or something?

Free throw amounts are an indicator of aggression and the Cavs came out of the gates like a bull seeing red for the very first time.
Wow it's starting to sound like a lakers/kings wcf finals thread in 2002 :p
 
Here's a hypothetical that hits home: say Karl Malone decides to join the Kings instead of the Lakers in 2003. Is that ring chasing? Maybe, but I'd argue it would have been less objectionable than joining the Lakers, who had just won three years in a row. He could have been the final piece to put the Kings over the top, filling in with Webber hurt. That would have been a nice legacy. Winning with the Lakers would have meant less (luckily, Detroit took care of business).
That situation is completely different, IMO. Jumping ship to a team that has already proven they can win a title w/o you is entirely different than joining a team that hasn't been able to win a title w/o you.

In LeBron's situation in Miami, that core team wasn't coming off back-to-back Finals appearances in which they were 1 play away from having 2 consecutive titles under their belt. While Wade and Haslem had a ring from 5 seasons earlier, the Heat hadn't made it out of the 1st round since. Sure, when James, Wade, and Bosh all joined forces, most believed they'd win -- but they were far from a proven team. In fact, they started out 9-8 until finally hitting their stride but of course lost to Dallas in the Finals.

In Durant's situation in GS, the core of the Warriors had been together for numerous years and had just come off back-to-back Finals appearances in which they won one and lost one. They lost a bit of depth to get Durant, but the core of the team was still intact. Had LeBron joined up with Boston for the 10/11 season rather than Miami, that would have been comparable to what Durant has done. The Celts had just lost in the Finals the season before (beating LBJ and the Cavs along the way) and still had the same core in place from the team that won a ring a couple seasons before.

In summary, LeBron didn't join a ready made team that had won a title w/o him. Durant did. So, in the Karl Malone hypothetical above, while joining the Kings would have been ring chasing, it wouldn't have been the same as joining the ready made Lakers that had won titles w/o him. Malone could have been a player that made the difference for Kings and put them over the top where they'd never been before. However he just would have made the Lakers a better version of a title team than they already were.

To me, that's all Durant has done in GS (should they hold on and win). He simply made a championship team even better. The same thing would have happened had he went to Cleveland instead. Those 2 teams proved to be pretty even last postseason. A top 5 player going to either team tips the scales pretty heavily. Imagine if Kawhi Leonard was able to jump ship to Cleveland next season? The balance would likely shift the other direction.

Even better yet, imagine if LeBron decided to opt out after losing to GS this season and join the Warriors too? He would in all likelihood guarantee himself 6 or 7 championships as they'd easily win the next 3 or 4. And if he did that, all the LeBron haters would pile on stating that accomplishment deserved an asterisk. As an admitted fan of LBJ, I'd fully agree. That's why I don't like what Durant has done. He didn't build and lead a team to a title from scratch. Had he joined Washington instead, who had 2 all-star caliber players in Wall and Beal, and led that unproven team to the title, I would see it as more of an accomplishment and akin to what LBJ did in Miami.
 
The way they are calling the game you are simply not going to win with a big as your best player. The Warriors would gladly trade 3 for 2 every trip down while your star big runs baseline to baseline for 45 minutes
i disagree and thats the trap the warriors have set. No one will beat the warriors playing like them yet many of the teams in the NBA are obsessed with trying to do so. A skilled big man is key to exposing their weakness. Demarcus is skilled both outside and in and having him a subset of a solid offense rather then the focal point of it would be absolutely deadly, something i feel could be achieved if the Celtics leverage their assets appropriately in any trades targeting big men.
 

VF21

Super Moderator Emeritus
SME
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i disagree and thats the trap the warriors have set. No one will beat the warriors playing like them yet many of the teams in the NBA are obsessed with trying to do so. A skilled big man is key to exposing their weakness. Demarcus is skilled both outside and in and having him a subset of a solid offense rather then the focal point of it would be absolutely deadly, something i feel could be achieved if the Celtics leverage their assets appropriately in any trades targeting big men.
I couldn't agree more. Honestly, while not the same player as Cuz, I think the Cavs misuse Kevin Love, or better yet, don't take enough advantage of his "in the post" skills. They're not making GSW pay enough for trying to guard him with Durant at times. No chance Durant can consistently play good post defense on him. He's too light. And Love is a very good and willing passer if/when they bring help.

But circling back to Cousins, if he gets to the right team (Washington, maybe?) it could cause them to deviate their lineups when getting consistently taken advantage of down low. Tristan Thompson does some nice things down low for Cleveland, but they really don't have to worry about his scoring. I've contended numerous times that GSW is benefiting from an era where there's no in-his-prime Duncan or Shaq or even a talented combo of Webber/Divac. IMO, they'd be in the same boat Dallas was during the Dirk, Nash and Finley era. Those guys could shoot and score the hell out of the ball, but they couldn't defend those low post guys and their elite perimeter shooting usually lost out. While GSW plays much better team defense than Dallas ever did --- there's still no chance they could get away playing Draymond Green on any of those guys as they can get away with today. And Draymond IS the key to their defense. They'd need a legit big on the floor to defend otherwise a guy like Duncan or Shaq would score at a 65% clip and get them in a lot of foul trouble when they decided to send them to the line instead. If they continued to go small in an effort to pull those guys out on the perimeter, they'd have to shoot 45+% as a team from 3pt range (with a high volume of shots) to make it work and that's not likely to happen 4 times in 7 games. So they'd not be in position to field their so called death lineup unless they wanted to die by it.

Unfortunately the few players that could really throw a wrench into what GSW likes to do aren't surrounded by the right type of supporting talent or just simply aren't utilized in the right way. Karl Anthony-Towns is another guy that fits the mold.
 
i disagree and thats the trap the warriors have set. No one will beat the warriors playing like them yet many of the teams in the NBA are obsessed with trying to do so. A skilled big man is key to exposing their weakness. Demarcus is skilled both outside and in and having him a subset of a solid offense rather then the focal point of it would be absolutely deadly, something i feel could be achieved if the Celtics leverage their assets appropriately in any trades targeting big men.
Well then you're not disagreeing are you? I said you're not going to win with a big as your best player, i.e focal point as you said.
 

Mr. S£im Citrus

Doryphore of KingsFans.com
Staff member
That doesn't seem to be at all what he said. It seems to me that he said that you can't beat the Warriors playing like the Warriors, and he might be implying that you can't win with Cousins as the focal point of your offense (although that second part is unclear), whereas you appear to be saying that you can't win with a big as your best player at all, which appears to be the opposite of what he said:

i disagree and thats the trap the warriors have set. No one will beat the warriors playing like them yet many of the teams in the NBA are obsessed with trying to do so. A skilled big man is key to exposing their weakness...
 
That doesn't seem to be at all what he said. It seems to me that he said that you can't beat the Warriors playing like the Warriors, and he might be implying that you can't win with Cousins as the focal point of your offense (although that second part is unclear), whereas you appear to be saying that you can't win with a big as your best player at all, which appears to be the opposite of what he said:
1. A skilled big man is the key to exposing their weakness, i.e. you may win with a big but he has to be skilled
2. Demarcus is such a skilled big man, and probably the best of them
3. Having demarcus as a subset rather than focal point would be deadly

It's not that much of a logical jump to conclude that if you can only win with a skilled big, and one who is not the focal point, that you can't win with a big as the focal point. If this was not the case there would be no need to qualify the bit about being a subset rather than focal point.

Having a big being key is different from having a big being your best player. Tristan Thompson was key last year, he was not the Cavs best player.