Tankathon in effect? Joerger says 2 vets will rest each game (split)

#62
Call me crazy, but I think KK is worth a very late first rounder. I think any of the serious playoff teams would welcome him with open arms into their backup center position.
Given that people have expressed hope that we get something for our vets, I thought I'll highlight some potential issues with trades. If my understanding about the CBA is incorrect anywhere below, hopefully some gurus like Captain would correct me.
  1. Unless the team we are trading with is under the cap by the required amount, we'll have to take salary back for the player we send.
  2. Given that most of our vets are on a decently high salary, we are unlikely to get just a youngling to match the salary.
  3. Since we don't have an open roster spot, we can't do a one for two trade, to make the salaries match. Not unless we give up on some youngster(s) ourselves.
  4. Some possible scenarios could be sending some useful vet, and getting some useless vet (with salary hopefully ending in the same time frame), and some picks. I haven't explored any such myself though. Just throwing it out there as something that would make logical sense for us, and potentially the trade partner as well.
  5. Attaching a prospect (like say MR) to a vet to get a lower level vet but a higher level prospect might be the other reasonable scenario.
I think most folks are already aware of these constraints, and the suggestion of sending vets for picks represent just the wish list. Be good to temper wishes with reality though.
 
#63
Given that people have expressed hope that we get something for our vets, I thought I'll highlight some potential issues with trades. If my understanding about the CBA is incorrect anywhere below, hopefully some gurus like Captain would correct me.
  1. Unless the team we are trading with is under the cap by the required amount, we'll have to take salary back for the player we send.
  2. Given that most of our vets are on a decently high salary, we are unlikely to get just a youngling to match the salary.
  3. Since we don't have an open roster spot, we can't do a one for two trade, to make the salaries match. Not unless we give up on some youngster(s) ourselves.
  4. Some possible scenarios could be sending some useful vet, and getting some useless vet (with salary hopefully ending in the same time frame), and some picks. I haven't explored any such myself though. Just throwing it out there as something that would make logical sense for us, and potentially the trade partner as well.
  5. Attaching a prospect (like say MR) to a vet to get a lower level vet but a higher level prospect might be the other reasonable scenario.
I think most folks are already aware of these constraints, and the suggestion of sending vets for picks represent just the wish list. Be good to temper wishes with reality though.
Hit on some key points there. I would agree I don’t think the likelihood of making a move is that high and I’d be comfortable saying unless there is a no brainer deal on the table that works, we will go into the offseason with this roster in place. To me, I just see the contracts being easier to move this summer or beyond and getting good value back. The difference between good and bad franchises is how they value their assets and what they get in return for them. That’s why people make jokes about how Danny Ainge is a nightmare to work a trade with. There might even be something to be said about getting players to work hard for you and if you value them highly and exhibit that, you’re going to earn your players trust much quicker. Given that we’re trying to change the culture I hope it also means a return to respectability in the front office and I suspect Vlade will get a lot of respect in the coming years for some of the value he ends up getting out of these trades that turned into draft picks and just draft picks alone.
 

kingsboi

Hall of Famer
#64
I've always wondered... does Elfrid's hair just grow into that duckbill style, or does he fashion it forward like that?

I'm not one to bash hairstyles (I have some wild hair myself), but that one always struck me as bizarre.
you have to consider that he gets a taper on the side which fades the sides and the lower portion of the back of the head and the sole focus of length is on the top of the head so you can imagine with years of not cutting it up there that the hair naturally will grow forward.
 
#65
The Vets the Kings have could all help a team bound for the Playoffs if the player fit the needs of their team. Say a team needed a PG or sweet shooting 2 guard then Hill would fit that role. If a team needed a Big to come of the bench and score ZBO is the guy. Kosta plays hard defense and grabs boards. Garrett plays good defense and makes the right play. Vince is Vince:)

All these guys are good locker room guys and appear to be willing to fit in with the plans the Kings have laid out. So that is their value to the Kings. If the Kings stand pat and look for the long play there is not a problem. Things will look different in the Summer and also at this time next year.

Vlade has shown that he does not saddle the team with contracts that will hamstring the team beyond a year or two. So unless the pick or player coming is really a good asset I don't see Vlade taking on a dead weight contract. But I would not be surprised if all kinds of wacky offers are made to the Kings.
 
#66
Atalanta and Orlando are both trying to shop their vets supposedly.

Michael Scotto: Atlanta Hawks are seeking a high second-round draft pick in exchange for either Marco Belinelli or Ersan Ilyasova, league sources told

http://hoopshype.com/rumor/1156080

Rival
executives expect Jeff Weltman, Orlando’s new team president, to aggressively hunt for new homes for the likes of Evan Fournier, Elfrid Payton and Mario Hezonja, given that Nikola Vucevic’s broken finger is likely to preclude dealing the center.

http://hoopshype.com/rumor/1156771/


So the tank is on. Question is should we take whatever we can get asap for our vets, or hold on for value. Interesting consideration, may not be able to get anything if we are not aggressive but whatever meager returns we could get by waiting may not be there later.

I say sell now if we can, get something in the hand rather than being cheap & trying to hold on for value.
Mark Deeks: GiveMeSport has learned that the Atlanta Hawks are trying to trade Dewayne Dedmon. While it appears to not have been reported prior, it nonetheless will (or should) come as no surprise to Hawks fans to know that. After all, why wouldn’t they be trying to trade him?

http://hoopshype.com/rumor/dewayne-dedmon-on-the-block/

A tad bit of competition if we tried to move Kosta.
 
#69
I wonder if Joerger is on the same page as the tank. We saw him trying to win meaningless games last year, and we’ve seen him riding the vets again this year. Does Vlade/FO have to sit the players so Joerger complies with playing the youth? Joerger, is a bit of an odd fit in a rebuilding situation. Even after his contract was secured another year, has he played the youth sufficiently and can he be trusted to have development in mind over winning, at this point harmful to the org, games
 
#70
I wonder if Joerger is on the same page as the tank. We saw him trying to win meaningless games last year, and we’ve seen him riding the vets again this year. Does Vlade/FO have to sit the players so Joerger complies with playing the youth? Joerger, is a bit of an odd fit in a rebuilding situation. Even after his contract was secured another year, has he played the youth sufficiently and can he be trusted to have development in mind over winning, at this point harmful to the org, games
The Kings have won 13 games:eek:
 
#71
I wonder if Joerger is on the same page as the tank. We saw him trying to win meaningless games last year, and we’ve seen him riding the vets again this year. Does Vlade/FO have to sit the players so Joerger complies with playing the youth? Joerger, is a bit of an odd fit in a rebuilding situation. Even after his contract was secured another year, has he played the youth sufficiently and can he be trusted to have development in mind over winning, at this point harmful to the org, games
I am not convinced that any win for a young developing team is harmful! By design this team was not going to win much, vets or no vets and the latest move has been planned from the start. That much is obvious.

No matter which was the franchise goes (vets or no vets) the Kings will have a top 3 pick which means there is an opportunity to draft an elite talent.
 
#72
I am not convinced that any win for a young developing team is harmful! By design this team was not going to win much, vets or no vets and the latest move has been planned from the start. That much is obvious.

No matter which was the franchise goes (vets or no vets) the Kings will have a top 3 pick which means there is an opportunity to draft an elite talent.

If it's the young players bringing it home maybe. Being bit parts watching middling vets bring it home while they sit on the bench and "learn" does nothing in the grand scheme. Just like some of these players getting the same opportunity last year.

And I have every belief that the Kings came into the season thinking they could produce a San Antonio Spurs scenario out of thin air where the coach gets his wins and the young guys play a minor role while "learning". The fact that it's failed to this extent should send red flags up and possibly give them pause as to how they should proceed. The finish to the season should be as important for Dave Joerger moving forward as it is with any of the young players.
 
#73
If it's the young players bringing it home maybe. Being bit parts watching middling vets bring it home while they sit on the bench and "learn" does nothing in the grand scheme. Just like some of these players getting the same opportunity last year.

And I have every belief that the Kings came into the season thinking they could produce a San Antonio Spurs scenario out of thin air where the coach gets his wins and the young guys play a minor role while "learning". The fact that it's failed to this extent should send red flags up and possibly give them pause as to how they should proceed. The finish to the season should be as important for Dave Joerger moving forward as it is with any of the young players.
Belief based on what exactly?! Twisted logic?!

Everything this franchise has spoken about since trading Cousins has been about 2-3 year plan, developing young players, changing the culture etc. Nothing has at all indicated anything else. You bring up playing minutes but its pretty clear that argument is bogus unless of course your expectations are that young players get all the minutes which is just lunacy!

Bogdan 26.3 mpg
WCS 26.6 mpg - career high
Fox 26.4 mpg
Buddy 24 mpg
Jackson 17.2 mpg
Skal 17.2 mpg
Mason 18.6 mpg
Papagiannis 7.2 mpg
Malachi - 12.8 mpg - career high

Given that there are as many as 10 players (including Giles) who has less than 3 seasons of NBA experience, I am not exactly sure how you would expect youngsters to play more and still have veteran presence on the team unless of course you are advocating not having any veterans which in itself is a very strange approach.
 
#74
I am not convinced that any win for a young developing team is harmful! By design this team was not going to win much, vets or no vets and the latest move has been planned from the start. That much is obvious.

No matter which was the franchise goes (vets or no vets) the Kings will have a top 3 pick which means there is an opportunity to draft an elite talent.
Put it in writing for me to ease my nerves, that March schedule... :)

But I think the larger question is did the decision come from the FO because they were not content with Joerger’s usage of the vets (after having watched a Hill/Temple/Randolph starting unit get hammered by the Clips mind you)
 
#75
Belief based on what exactly?! Twisted logic?!

Everything this franchise has spoken about since trading Cousins has been about 2-3 year plan, developing young players, changing the culture etc. Nothing has at all indicated anything else. You bring up playing minutes but its pretty clear that argument is bogus unless of course your expectations are that young players get all the minutes which is just lunacy!

Bogdan 26.3 mpg
WCS 26.6 mpg - career high
Fox 26.4 mpg
Buddy 24 mpg
Jackson 17.2 mpg
Skal 17.2 mpg
Mason 18.6 mpg
Papagiannis 7.2 mpg
Malachi - 12.8 mpg - career high

Given that there are as many as 10 players (including Giles) who has less than 3 seasons of NBA experience, I am not exactly sure how you would expect youngsters to play more and still have veteran presence on the team unless of course you are advocating not having any veterans which in itself is a very strange approach.

You have a point, except of course for Hill saying they were thinking winning before the season then talking about how this wasn't what he figured this season would be. See, the huge indicators? They sometimes give an idea of what is actually going on.

When a team rebuilds that's typically exactly what they do. The signings of Hill and Randolph may have improved certain aspects in the locker room, but they've made it an awkward fit on the court.
 
#76
Remember as the Tankathon 2018 Bus launched, losses all of the sudden become "desirable" (!) - and the topsy-turvy NBA Teacups-ride begins. A bit early <sigh>, but time to start looking at the 2018 draft class.
 
#80
I just watched a clip of Ayton, and was not too impressed on first look. He plays kind of rigidly although a big boy and a defensive presence.

You know who he looks like? Willie recently. They both kind of have iffy hands around the rim. They have decent jumpers. They both are quite athletic and have about the same body structure. They move in a very similar way in the post.
 
#81
Remember as the Tankathon 2018 Bus launched, losses all of the sudden become "desirable" (!) - and the topsy-turvy NBA Teacups-ride begins. A bit early <sigh>, but time to start looking at the 2018 draft class.

I get the positive spin but not if it's at the expense of the gazillion draft picks you've made in the last 3 years. Looking terrible and waiting on a great pick is good if you are just starting over, but the Kings have too much to lose with this many young players not gaining much of anything.
 
#82
You know who he looks like? Willie recently. They both kind of have iffy hands around the rim. They have decent jumpers. They both are quite athletic and have about the same body structure. They move in a very similar way in the post.
From another look Ayton looks a little stronger especially in upper body in comparison, while Stein is quicker and a better leaper. This was my first day of starting to view picks.......Ayton would help defense and rebounding immediately I'd think. He actually kinda reminds me of Derrick Favors a bit in style - I dunno. On another highlight, Ayton is definitely unafraid to try his shot from anywhere.....I gotta look through at least the first 15 mock picks before casting actual judgement.
 
#83
I love Doncic but something tells me Ayton would be a home run for this team.
Why is that? I mean you can make a case for Ayton > Doncic in a vacuum (though I would disagree) but for the Kings specifically I dont see it. In my opinion, the Kings starve for high IQ wing players that can shoot, pass and playmake. The last thing they need positionally is another young Center that likes to have the ball in the post and doesnt protect the rim. There are already four of those on the team.
 
#84
I get it, the dude has goofy hair but that doesn't even begin to explain why Orlando would be willing to move him in an effort to reset their rebuild. If I told you there was a 23 year old PG on the market who's a good defender and playmaker, is currently shooting 51% from the floor and 39% from deep (not a small sample size either, 351 and 57 attempts respectively) and consistently puts up above-average rebounding and assist totals you'd expect there to be a lot of interest. His achilles heel has always been shooting but that hasn't been a problem this year. As if to emphasize the point, his last game was 27, 8, and 5 with 9 of 12 shooting and 8 of 9 from the line.

And if you go player by player on that Orlando lineup, individually things look like they're on track for them. Aaron Gordon is having his expected breakout year. Vucevic is still solid in the middle and he's actually added an outsider jumper to his game this year too. Fournier is making $17 million a year now but he's giving you the production you'd expect at that price point and he's only 25. So what's the deal? That looks like a team that's a couple pieces short but not noncompetitive. They have a good coach, they have some good vets on the bench. Why are they losing all their games? It's not all because of Vucevic's injury as they were on a 7 game losing streak before that happened.

This whole thing just sounds like too many cooks are involved in that front office. Maybe someone is still mad about a draft pick from years ago. Maybe Victor Oladipo blowing up in Indiana this year has ruffled some feathers (especially since Serge Ibaka isn't even there anymore). Maybe they finally realized how much they overpaid for Biyombo. I don't think that roster is as bad as their record indicates but there must be something going on chemistry-wise which is sabotaging things.
I'm really not sure who you're mistaking Payton for. It's a small sample size on his 3pt attempts. He averages only 1.6attempt per game. I've watched about 8-9 Orlando games this year..and let me tell you, his defense is bad. I'm really not sure why this rep of him being a good defender has stuck around. Orlando fans have complained about his defense for the past 2 years.

I still think he's one of the problems on that team. They need to just move on from him and draft Trae Young.
 
#85
You know who he looks like? Willie recently. They both kind of have iffy hands around the rim. They have decent jumpers. They both are quite athletic and have about the same body structure. They move in a very similar way in the post.
I watched the Arizona game tonite. He's athletic like Willie. But, Already better than him and 6 years younger. A much stronger post and rebound guy. WCS looked good tonite against Joe Ingles. Not Gobert.
 
#86
Why is that? I mean you can make a case for Ayton > Doncic in a vacuum (though I would disagree) but for the Kings specifically I dont see it. In my opinion, the Kings starve for high IQ wing players that can shoot, pass and playmake. The last thing they need positionally is another young Center that likes to have the ball in the post and doesnt protect the rim. There are already four of those on the team.
I watched the Arizona game tonite. He's athletic like Willie. But, Already better than him and 6 years younger. A much stronger post and rebound guy. WCS looked good tonite against Joe Ingles. Not Gobert.

Ayton doesn't protect the rim. Have you watched any Arizona games? Any? He's a monster on the boards.
 
#88
Why is that? I mean you can make a case for Ayton > Doncic in a vacuum (though I would disagree) but for the Kings specifically I dont see it. In my opinion, the Kings starve for high IQ wing players that can shoot, pass and playmake. The last thing they need positionally is another young Center that likes to have the ball in the post and doesnt protect the rim. There are already four of those on the team.
Made some good points. I love Ayton and think he will be a terrific NBA player, but just speaking impartially I’ve been more worried about fit lately.

If we are gonna go for a big man and have the choice between Ayton and Bagley I would take Bagley and bet on his versatility and hope he develops an all around game. I think he absolutely has the skill set to be more of a diverse player than Ayton and in time you can probably even scoot him to the 3 and go with a bigger line up in spurts, without having to sacrifice much athleticism. It would be the same sense in how we play Bogie in spurts as lead ball handler but you’re not going to see him start at the 1.
 
#89
What scares me about Doncic is his complete lack of Athleticsm. Is his talent going to translate? Especially, when he has to go against players that are stronger and faster than him? Euro's scare me. A lot of them have looked good/great over the years, but very few have been special.
 
#90
I love Ayton..but floor spacing would be an absolute nightmare on this team.

Fox-WCS-Ayton...

be prepared to see teams triple team Ayton.
Made some good points. I love Ayton and think he will be a terrific NBA player, but just speaking impartially I’ve been more worried about fit lately.

If we are gonna go for a big man and have the choice between Ayton and Bagley I would take Bagley and bet on his versatility and hope he develops an all around game. I think he absolutely has the skill set to be more of a diverse player than Ayton and in time you can probably even scoot him to the 3 and go with a bigger line up in spurts, without having to sacrifice much athleticism. It would be the same sense in how we play Bogie in spurts as lead ball handler but you’re not going to see him start at the 1.
Agree on Ayton but is Bagley fitwise any better? Offensively yes, but defensively? He would have to chase stretch 4s and wing players around screens. Its just the way the NBA is now. You get killed on D if you insist on playing big.