Grades/post-game discussion v. Suns - 12/12

VF21

Super Moderator Emeritus
SME
#1
I saw things that still need improvement but I sure saw things that made me smile. Next step is to see them play so well it takes my breath away. Quite honestly, I don't think it will be that much longer. Our young Kings are learning very rapidly...

IT'S A GREAT NIGHT TO BE A KINGS FAN!!!
 
#7
Another fun game to watch regardless of the outcome.
I'm ready to start Mason and move Fox to the 2nd unit. Whoever plays better finishes the game.
I'm also ready for Hill to start at SG. Temple should be strictly a defensive sub until he finds his shot.
I like having both Bogie and Buddy come in with the 2nd unit.
WCS seems to like coming in with Koufus and the 2nd unit as opposed to starting. But I would like to start these guys and have Z-Bo and Skal come in with the 2nd unit.
 
#8
I saw things that still need improvement but I sure saw things that made me smile. Next step is to see them play so well it takes my breath away. Quite honestly, I don't think it will be that much longer. Our young Kings are learning very rapidly...

IT'S A GREAT NIGHT TO BE A KINGS FAN!!!
Thy roll must be slowed. What might take your breath away is not enough for 99% of the current fanbase unfortunately.


Not to discourage your excitement but in all honesty the current fanbase needs a bit more than that.

Having a finger on the pulse of the direction of the future of the fanbase is probably something to distinctly consider in your shoes. Encouraging new (albeit more snarky and more immediately results oriented) members is a tough proposition. I dont envy you.

Edit: Just to not get things twisted, I' not trying to discourage the enthusiasm. Just trying to help soften the blow of the response. Right now the state of the franchise's fans is defcon 3, millennal level.
 
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#9
Another fun game to watch regardless of the outcome.
I'm ready to start Mason and move Fox to the 2nd unit. Whoever plays better finishes the game.
I'm also ready for Hill to start at SG. Temple should be strictly a defensive sub until he finds his shot.
I like having both Bogie and Buddy come in with the 2nd unit.
WCS seems to like coming in with Koufus and the 2nd unit as opposed to starting. But I would like to start these guys and have Z-Bo and Skal come in with the 2nd unit.
Do you want a playoff contender starting next year and for years to come or do you want immediate gratification? One is not like the other yet you ask for both. Choose
 
#10
I saw things that still need improvement but I sure saw things that made me smile. Next step is to see them play so well it takes my breath away. Quite honestly, I don't think it will be that much longer. Our young Kings are learning very rapidly...

IT'S A GREAT NIGHT TO BE A KINGS FAN!!!
It's going to be a heck of a lot quicker than a lot of people out there think. And, yes, that does include some Kings fans.
 
#13
Bogie easily the MVP tonight really slowed Warren who is a excellent scorer every-time he was on him while making timely shots and assisting/hockey assisting. Props to Hill for playing well with whatever is bothering him hopefully he can keep it up. Z-Bo was massive in the last 5 minutes just going berserk on everyone near him.

Would really like to see Temple out of the starting line up if Hill is playing, Temple is basically a less skilled Hill who does similar things just not as well.

PG: Fox or Mason
SG: Hill
SF: Bogie
PF: WCS
C: Z-Bo

WCS has to play with Bogie for the pick n roll he's a completely different player when he can get fed.
 
#14
Do you want a playoff contender starting next year and for years to come or do you want immediate gratification? One is not like the other yet you ask for both. Choose
Huh? How is it that you think what I’d like to see will sacrifice long-term success? At this point I only want us to be competitive, and not necessarily victorious. But I want our youngsters to be put in the positions where they can best succeed. Your assumptions are baffling.
 
#16
I'm with you brother, but maybe we should keep our lin talk outta the celebration threads. They don't want to hear it here! :p

At least Dallas won tonight too!
I agree. It does seem a tad antagonistic to talk long term consequences on the game day thread or game grades thread. It's probably not what people who are celebrating the win want to hear. Probably more suited for the rebuilding thread.
 

kingsboi

Hall of Famer
#18
Another fun game to watch regardless of the outcome.
I'm ready to start Mason and move Fox to the 2nd unit. Whoever plays better finishes the game.
I'm also ready for Hill to start at SG. Temple should be strictly a defensive sub until he finds his shot.
I like having both Bogie and Buddy come in with the 2nd unit.
WCS seems to like coming in with Koufus and the 2nd unit as opposed to starting. But I would like to start these guys and have Z-Bo and Skal come in with the 2nd unit.
If you bring slow-bo off the bench, you might as well pencil in a 15-0 deficit almost every single time from the tip. Not a good idea right now.
 
#20
If you bring slow-bo off the bench, you might as well pencil in a 15-0 deficit almost every single time from the tip. Not a good idea right now.
I hear you. But other than the Suns, we've been spotting the other team 10 points with Slo-Bo. I think having Mason start will help offset what the starting unit loses with Z-Bo coming off the bench. But I'm not sure Vlade and Joerger would be OK with making Fox look like he's secondary to Mason. Even if Mason started, however, I would see it as a temporary move until Fox is ready to run the starting unit.
 
#21
The Kings just kind of hung around until the fourth quarter. They actually played some good defense and rebounded the ball at the end. I believe small ball is for real. The Kings' strong finish was made by Mason, Buddy, Hill, Bogdan and Randolph. Good ball handlers, good defenders except for Randolph who actually worked at it for a change.

You would think that the Kings could handle the Suns at Golden One without Devin Booker a little easier. What is new is that the old Kings caved in at the end of games and the newer Kings play their best at the end. The Kings have good guards and play 5 guys so that they have some juice at the end. I am not impressed with Skal or Willie at all. They are serious under achievers. Randolph has undeniable talent and can make his own offense when the Kings start standing around. The Kings might be one trade for a power forward away from being a .500 NBA team.

Maybe we just need more cowbell and more Mason.
 
#22
30 minutes 6 rebounds 4 fouls 0 blocks 13 points on 12 shots. This was Willie's stat line last night. Not good. Those same 30 minutes go to spark plug LaVarr Sampson and he gets you 10 plus rebounds and scores and defends more efficiently (less fouls, more perimeter D). Then maybe the game is not so tight in the 4th against a bad opponent missing its best player.

The contrast between Willie to Sampson back to Willie was stark with regard to activity and energy level and fighting for the spot in the paint.

Sampson has infectious energy. Willie is not locked in like a champion nor does he play with contagious spirit. It is like he showed up at the YMCA to get some run and pass some time on a lazy Sunday afternoon. Willie is frustrating because he does not finish plays like he should nor do his work early. He does not play through the contact. He does not relish the dirty work it takes to be great.

I am happy with Willie as a back-up and love the lob chemistry he has developed with teammates and I do credit him for stroking the J with more smoothness but the Kings are delusional if they think he can ever be a high quality starter in this league. After years of projection and analysis the conclusion is simple: he's not good enough.

Every time you think Willie has turned a corner he loops back around into a circle. Fool me once shame on you fool me twice, er, ten times well.... :)

The deliberate pace and Z-Bo-centric offense is this coach's wet dream. His vision has been realized to modest relative success but at possible cost of an accelerated learning curve for De'Aaron Fox. The offense the Kings run have put the shackles on our potential franchise PG. He is instructed to feed the post and get out of the way and only intermittently does he get to play his game.

Look at De'Aaron's shot attempts:
  • In the first 5 games of the season, he was aggressive and going for it. He was averaging 14 FGAs per game and 15 PPG and 5 APG.
  • Since then (and once he got into shape) the Kings have decided to feature Z-Bong as heavily as Boogie Cousins (30-35% usage)
  • October to December, Z-Bo FGAs have gone from 11 FGAs to 17 FGAs (+50%)
  • You can't argue with 59% FGs for Z-Bo but in the process you have turned De'Aaron often times into a spectator
  • Fox FGAs are down almost 50% to 8 FGAs per game. His assists are down 50% too.
I am not necessarily saying this is bad for his development in the long term. The competitiveness of the team is paramount at this point. Fox is shooting 46% this month, up from 40%. He's being more selective and showing incremental improvement in his efficiency. I do think however that the offense and shot distribution and style overweighted toward the coaches star pupil will ultimately hinder Fox. You have a thoroughbred you have to let it run. I know fans are going to say Joerger is encouraging uptempo. Fair enough, he is also encouraging nearly 20 shots per game for Z-Bo.

All is forgiven with George Hill. Having a death in the family obviously justifies his absence. The Hill we saw last night is what we thought we were getting when we shelled out the big bucks. It is not a coincidence we had 21 turnovers in his absence and only 9 turnovers with his return. His presence as a primary ball handler provides stability. This alone does not justify his contract of course but it can be an under-appreciated variable.
 
#23
Thy roll must be slowed. What might take your breath away is not enough for 99% of the current fanbase unfortunately.


Not to discourage your excitement but in all honesty the current fanbase needs a bit more than that.

Having a finger on the pulse of the direction of the future of the fanbase is probably something to distinctly consider in your shoes. Encouraging new (albeit more snarky and more immediately results oriented) members is a tough proposition. I dont envy you.

Edit: Just to not get things twisted, I' not trying to discourage the enthusiasm. Just trying to help soften the blow of the response. Right now the state of the franchise's fans is defcon 3, millennal level.
Don’t want to discourage your input but where did this post come from? You don’t want to “discourage”? Well, I don’t think you did a very good job. “Lousy game last night?” Well, our guys played well when it counted.
 
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Kingster

Hall of Famer
#25
This game was just a meh game for me. The bright spot was Hill. It seems that he's not allowing the death in the family to affect his play now. For the first time in the entire season I saw a smile on his face (on the bench). Maybe it was there at the very beginning of the season, but I can't recall it. Anyway, I hope this isn't the last we have a Hill sighting. The Kings have a rough schedule coming up and they are going to need him.
 

VF21

Super Moderator Emeritus
SME
#26
Thy roll must be slowed. What might take your breath away is not enough for 99% of the current fanbase unfortunately.


Not to discourage your excitement but in all honesty the current fanbase needs a bit more than that.

Having a finger on the pulse of the direction of the future of the fanbase is probably something to distinctly consider in your shoes. Encouraging new (albeit more snarky and more immediately results oriented) members is a tough proposition. I dont envy you.

Edit: Just to not get things twisted, I' not trying to discourage the enthusiasm. Just trying to help soften the blow of the response. Right now the state of the franchise's fans is defcon 3, millennal level.
No worries. You couldn't discourage my enthusiasm if you tried your best. I've been the same person since I joined this forum in 2001. And my roll will not be slowed. It's who I am. I bleed purple.
 
#27
30 minutes 6 rebounds 4 fouls 0 blocks 13 points on 12 shots. This was Willie's stat line last night. Not good. Those same 30 minutes go to spark plug LaVarr Sampson and he gets you 10 plus rebounds and scores and defends more efficiently (less fouls, more perimeter D). Then maybe the game is not so tight in the 4th against a bad opponent missing its best player.

The contrast between Willie to Sampson back to Willie was stark with regard to activity and energy level and fighting for the spot in the paint.

Sampson has infectious energy. Willie is not locked in like a champion nor does he play with contagious spirit. It is like he showed up at the YMCA to get some run and pass some time on a lazy Sunday afternoon. Willie is frustrating because he does not finish plays like he should nor do his work early. He does not play through the contact. He does not relish the dirty work it takes to be great.

I am happy with Willie as a back-up and love the lob chemistry he has developed with teammates and I do credit him for stroking the J with more smoothness but the Kings are delusional if they think he can ever be a high quality starter in this league. After years of projection and analysis the conclusion is simple: he's not good enough.

Every time you think Willie has turned a corner he loops back around into a circle. Fool me once shame on you fool me twice, er, ten times well.... :)
Of course, you factored in that it was Willie's first game back after a two and a half week layoff, right?

Which Sampson is better than WCS? The Sampson that played 25 minutes against the Bucks with a line of 2-6 shooting, 3 reb, 1 ast, 4 PF, and 4 points. or the one that pulled down 2 rebounds against the Pelicans with 5 PF. There isn't a stat for infectiously energetic, though, so he may have played better than his stats showed.

Sampson had a good game against Cleveland (in 33 minutes, 6 pts on 6 shoots, 16 reb, no ast or blocks, 3 PF) and an okay game against Toronto (in 19 minutes, 11 pts, 4 reb, 3 blks, 0 ast), but he's not a better all around player than WCS. Ask Joerger if you need confirmation.
 
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gunks

Hall of Famer
#29
Of course, you factored in that it was Willie's first game back after a two and a half week layoff, right?

Which Sampson is better than WCS? The Sampson that played 25 minutes against the Bucks with a line of 2-6 shooting, 3 reb, 1 ast, 4 PF, and 4 points. or the one that pulled down 2 rebounds against the Pelicans with 5 PF. There isn't a stat for infectiously energetic, though, so he may have played better than his stats showed.

Sampson had a good game against Cleveland (in 33 minutes, 6 pts on 6 shoots, 16 reb, no ast or blocks, 3 PF) and an okay game against Toronto (in 19 minutes, 11 pts, 4 reb, 3 blks, 0 ast), but he's not a better all around player than WCS. Ask Joerger if you need confirmation.
I agree with you that WCS is better than Sampson. But the fact that WCS vs a G League call up is even an argument is telling.

Willie had a nice string of games before tweaking his back. Hopefully he gets back on track after his sub par showing last night.
 

VF21

Super Moderator Emeritus
SME
#30
I agree with you that WCS is better than Sampson. But the fact that WCS vs a G League call up is even an argument is telling.

Willie had a nice string of games before tweaking his back. Hopefully he gets back on track after his sub par showing last night.
I think that may be problematic against the TWolves...