Grades/post-game discussion v. Raptors - 12/10

#92
He looks so lost out there. Forcing entry passes, driving into traffic, camping at the 3 point line even though he is a bad shooter, shooting unnecessary floaters because he doesn't want to get blocked, etc. His confidence is gone right now. He doesn't even look like he belongs in the NBA. I really hope he can correct himself. It'd be terrible to watch a guy who wanted to be here and who we all wanted to be here not pan out.
Am I wrong in thinking that the kings are running an offense that isn't suited for Fox? I'm not surprised that he isn't playing well. That and he only played 1 year of college ball. It can't be very good for Fox's confidence that he is being asked to slow down his game which is not his game and then see mason come in and kill it with the bench. At this point in time mason is playing much better than fox. I'd be interested to see mason and fox switch places. Mason start and fox come in when Zbo goes out.
 
#93
So if it's lack of talent is it Vlades fault? Does everyone get a pass? There is a lot of young guys on this team and unfortunately there aren't any players that are really standing out. Is that the coaching or is it lack of talent?
As far as anything being Vlade's fault, it just depends on the picks.

If Fox turns out to be a terrible player, regardless of the coach, then we can't really blame Vlade because nearly all of the Kings fans wanted Fox. He was pretty much the consensus pick for like 80% of us if he was still there at 5. If Mason doesn't turn out, then big deal because he was a 2nd round pick and sort of a no brainer pick from that spot. Now if Jackson and Giles don't turn out, then fans have a gripe because those were reaches in their own way. Sort of like how McLemore was considered best player available so I can't blame the GM for that but Stauskas and Jimmer were bad picks based on money and terrible scouting.

Right now it's difficult to gauge a guy like Fox. I don't know if we can even accurately gauge him because the way Joerger is using him would be similar to planting WCS at the 3 point line and having him play like Tolliver every game. That would not be his game and the game Fox is playing isn't his game either. So of course he is going to look bad when he's doing things he's not really comfortable doing. Now the question is whether it's Joerger that's causing Fox to just bring the ball up and dump it to ZBo or is Fox doing it because his confidence has fallen apart and he's just giving it to ZBo because it's a sure fire way to not screw up? I don't know the answer to that but my guess is that it's part of the game plan.

The only reason I say that is because anyone that plays on the first unit looks like garbage and everyone that goes to the 2nd unit seems to be fine or at least show flashes more often than not. The only real difference there is whether they are on the court with ZBo or not.

It should really be the opposite with the starters being the cohesive unit that moves the ball and gets guys easy looks where the 2nd unit has more "me first" guys that can put the ball in the basket because the talent level isn't good enough to play as cohesively as the first unit. Basically a monster has been created because how can you take out a guy who is the best player on the team and averaging somewhere around 20 and 10 for the last couple weeks and tell him he needs less minutes and he needs to come off the bench? I'm just hoping a team notices what ZBo is doing and makes a trade for him.
 
#94
So if it's lack of talent is it Vlades fault? Does everyone get a pass? There is a lot of young guys on this team and unfortunately there aren't any players that are really standing out. Is that the coaching or is it lack of talent?
To me, I'm a little more upset with Vlade.

I wasn't a fan of the Hill signing considering that I didn't want any veteran signing to take up cap space for the 2019-20 season and that I thought his talent would help us win more games. And by winning more games, it gives us a worse pick in the 2018 draft. He hasn't really impacted wins that much with his current play but now that just means we now have a negative asset at $20 nil a year. I would have rather targeted guys like Calderon, Watson, Udrih, etc. to be a veteran PG that can give up minutes to the young guys if they have earned it but also not having much talent to add wins to the team.

I wasn't a fan for the Randolph signing. I liked the fact that his salary comes off the books in time for the 2019 offseason, but I wanted us to target high character, hard working veterans that won't move the needle on winning games. You could argue that Randolph has issues with his character, issues with working hard in practice (helping to set the example/tone for the young guys), and his play has been helping this team win games we have no business winning. I would have liked to go after T. Allen instead.

I liked the Carter signing since he wasn't going to really contribute to winning but he's a guy that would be a great mentor for the young guys.

I liked Fox at #5, wanted Anunoby at #15, liked Giles at #20, & wanted J. Evans at #34 (but was fine with Mason).

PG - Fox / J. Evans / Calderon
SG - Bogdanovic / Hield / Richardson
SF - Temple / Anunoby / T. Allen / Carter
PF - Cauley-Stein / Labissiere / Giles
C - Koufos / Papagiannis

That team doesn't have a lot of veteran talent in Calderon, Temple, Carter, Allen, & Koufos, and really none of them have the offensive skillset to carry a team. So what does that mean? That means if we win, it's most likely going to be on the backs of our young talent having a good night. Those are the wins I'm okay with., but when you have guys like Randolph or Hill who could go for 20-35 in a night and help win the game, those are the wins that hurt our draft pick with little to no development from our current young players.

Now, I don't want anyone to spin this and think I'm saying that Joerger shouldn't be playing these guys as much to keep their win total down because that then entitles the young players and sends the message that they don't have to earn their minutes. That can be just as detrimental to a rebuild as picking up meaningless wins. Joerger is trying to give time to those who are performing. If Vlade was smarter, he wouldn't have even given guys like Hill & Randolph for Joerger to use in the first place. That's why I look at Vlade in this scenario.

Atlanta veterans: Schroeder, Bazemore, Belinelli, Dedmon, & Ilyasova
Memphis veterans: Gasol, Conley, T. Evans, J. Green, Parson, Chalmers, & Ennis
Dallas veterans: H. Barnes, W. Matthews, Nowitzki, Noel, Ferrell, Barea, & D. Harris
Sacramento veterans: Randolph, Hill, Temple, Koufos, & Carter

Replace Hill & Randolph with Calderon & T. Allen and it's essentially a two team race for the least amount of wins in the league (CHI & SAC) giving us a great shot at finding the franchise player we desperately need.
 
#95
So if it's lack of talent is it Vlades fault? Does everyone get a pass? There is a lot of young guys on this team and unfortunately there aren't any players that are really standing out. Is that the coaching or is it lack of talent?
I'm not suggesting Vlade gets a pass. I'm more pointing to the scant (to no) evidence that supports showing Joerger the door at this point. For those who would argument he isn't using/developing the young players effectively --look, any coach in his position has two primary mandates, which are often conflicting - to develop young players and to actually compete on a week to week basis. For those who think using Zbo is hurting development of our kids - without him, we don't compete, and constant 20+ point losses hurt the organizational bottom line and will definitely put a coach on the hot seat. So there has to be a delicate balance. Our roster still has some gaping holes (although I'm happy with our guard situation), but I do think that the way Joerger is using the kids is giving us a good idea of what we have in our young guns. I expect we'll be learning more with different rotations as the games go by, and if we see some gelling among our younger core, I expect we'll see that reflected in the line ups. Right now, what makes it painful to watch, more than anything, is the inconsistency, and that is entirely normal with a group like this.
 
#96
Toronto is the type of team that will have their way with us, I give the guys credit for keeping it close despite the abysmal start. Raptor starters are all battle tested veterans in their prime, they won't make many mistakes and will just execute, execute, execute until all your own mistakes add up and it's too late. I like Bogi being moved to starting SG. Will be interesting to see if Joerger sticks with Hill there going forward.
I was at the game and thought the team really missed Hll’s presence. Bogdan is really a good replacement for Hill but he didn’t help Fox as much as vet Hill does and Fox was not good last night, putting it diferently, Fox was worse than usual last night especially at the latter part of the 4th Q.
 
#97
It's not hatred just because you disagree with it. If anything, you are approaching cheerleader status for all things Kings. A Kings staff member could call one of the players a 'bag of poopoo' and you'd sit here saying 'well, it is possible that he smells bad'

You're just a modern day debater unfortunately, try to silence anyone who disagrees with you by labeling them.

At the end of the day, if you step outside your bubble, this isn't proper coaching etiquette. Coaches always will hype up players and have their best interest in mind, not 'he doesn't really know what's going on on the court'. I just urge you to find another coach who does that. Did you catch Vince's piece on why everyone loved Fizdale so much? He understood this is these guys livelihoods, he would tell players like Sampson 'we're gonna help you get paid, we're gonna help you get on a team'.

If it doesn't bother you, fine, but no need to defend it with every breath and anytime someone criticizes a Kings decision.
I’ve heard your views three ways from breakfast. That’s enough for me, actually way too much for me. I like the way mod VF21 does her job. And speaking of doing a good job, I think Joerger is doing a good job for us, better than any coach for us going back at least a half dozen.
 
#98
We'll have to agree to disagree. I'm pretty sure "personal reasons" are just that - personal - and not related to the Kings. I know there has been mention before of family issues... whatever they are, I hope they end well for him and his family. It cannot be easy to try and deal with your own issues when you're across the country.
VF given the trib article are you of different mind now?
 
#99
One could criticize Joerger for not treating this team like a rebuilding team. He says he doesn't have much planned for Sampson because he's not part of our long-term plans. I find a major flaw in this argument when he decides to give Temple and Hill 25mins each. Neither of those guys are part of our long-term plans. Yes we're contractually bound to them for 1 more year, but both guys are 31 at the peak/decline of their career.
I don’t critsize Joerger for playing Temple and Hill I praise him for playing them until something better comes along and it hasn’t yet even though he keeps on looking and trying other options. I think if you turned he managing of this team over to the youngsters they would play our vets pretty much as they are being played.
 

VF21

Super Moderator Emeritus
SME
VF given the trib article are you of different mind now?
No, for the simple reason the Tribune article, as I just stated in the Rebuilding Strategy thread, contains NO real facts or evidence. Multiple sources are the crutch used by reporters who have heard something but either can't or won't bother to find actual real people to corroborate. Kind of like saying "Well, my friend's uncle who lives next door to Player's brother's babysitter said..."
 
No, for the simple reason the Tribune article, as I just stated in the Rebuilding Strategy thread, contains NO real facts or evidence. Multiple sources are the crutch used by reporters who have heard something but either can't or won't bother to find actual real people to corroborate. Kind of like saying "Well, my friend's uncle who lives next door to Player's brother's babysitter said..."
 
Can't you say that about the posters here who only repeatly see sunshine and rainbows, after all this is one of the worst teams in the laegue. Some of the people here who post the most have never said anything negative about one of the worst teams in the league. The team is in the basement and some here post like we're going to make a run at the ring. As annoying as the negative comments are to you, the positive ones about this basement team are just as frustrating for the people who view this team different then you.

I don't think Joeger or Vlade will be with this team when they finally make the playoffs. Does that make me a troll? I don't think Fox and Mason will be our PG's for the next ten years does that make me a troll too?

I'll be very happy if I'm wrong and will have no problem admitting it. I hope the Kings fans on this board who defend Joeger as a great coach and have labeled some of our players HOFers do the same. Only time will tell.

Will anyone be surprised if we give up a top 3 pick in the 2019 NBA draft? Will that be a major problem to some of you? Will most here give Vlade a pass? Do you want the owner of an NBA team to give a guy a pass like that? Sorry if that's negative for some of you, I like to hold the front office accountable for the moves they make good or bad
In general when people post their mind I'm OK with it. There are a couple of the negative posters that just repeat the same hate over and over and over and over and over and over.............................................................well you get it. Find something new to complain about already....... we freaking get it already!!!!!:):):)
 
I was at the game and thought the team really missed Hll’s presence. Bogdan is really a good replacement for Hill but he didn’t help Fox as much as vet Hill does and Fox was not good last night, putting it diferently, Fox was worse than usual last night especially at the latter part of the 4th Q.
I agree with you, 15 assists vs 21 TOs for the team is going to result in loss 95% of the time.

Hill was missed as a primary ball handler forcing guys to handle not accustomed to that degree of handling, namely Fox and Buddy, as reflected in their number of TOs.
 
In general when people post their mind I'm OK with it. There are a couple of the negative posters that just repeat the same hate over and over and over and over and over and over.............................................................well you get it. Find something new to complain about already....... we freaking get it already!!!!!:):):)
Who are you referring to? Call them out to allow them to defend themselves.

And FWIW this team has a negative point differential over 10 per 100 possessions, so why would you NOT expect criticism and harsh assessment of overall performance??? Our point differential is consistent with a 60 loss team.

Personally I don't hesitate to lambast the team individually and collectively when I feel it is justified. I would challenge the merits of the opinion before presuming it is based on "hate" .
 

VF21

Super Moderator Emeritus
SME
Who are you referring to? Call them out to allow them to defend themselves.

And FWIW this team has a negative point differential over 10 per 100 possessions, so why would you NOT expect criticism and harsh assessment of overall performance??? Our point differential is consistent with a 60 loss team.

Personally I don't hesitate to lambast the team individually and collectively when I feel it is justified. I would challenge the merits of the opinion before presuming it is based on "hate" .
Nope. That crosses a line. King Baller did it the right way.

In regards to your final sentences, you bring your rationale with your lambasting. That's an important and distinguishing difference.
 

Kingster

Hall of Famer
This rebuild is going to take at least another two years, and could easily go four years. If you think the Kings should be playing .500 ball either this year, next year, or even the year after, you might want to re-think things a bit. I get the feeling that some people accepted last year that this team was going to be a bottom dweller for a good while during the rebuild, but then when they actually experience losing the individual games it seems they cannot accept that. What did you expect from this team? .500 ball?
 
This rebuild is going to take at least another two years, and could easily go four years. If you think the Kings should be playing .500 ball either this year, next year, or even the year after, you might want to re-think things a bit. I get the feeling that some people accepted last year that this team was going to be a bottom dweller for a good while during the rebuild, but then when they actually experience losing the individual games it seems they cannot accept that. What did you expect from this team? .500 ball?
who expected a .500 or better team?
I haven't seen that person.........
I actually think that most people here want the losses. Especially since we don't have a lottery pick in 2019.
 
This rebuild is going to take at least another two years, and could easily go four years. If you think the Kings should be playing .500 ball either this year, next year, or even the year after, you might want to re-think things a bit. I get the feeling that some people accepted last year that this team was going to be a bottom dweller for a good while during the rebuild, but then when they actually experience losing the individual games it seems they cannot accept that. What did you expect from this team? .500 ball?
People are complaining about player development and the direction of the team and then others counter that with the point you made above.

The two have nothing to do with each other. No one is mad the Kings are losing. We all expected it. It's how the team and games are being managed that has everyone worried.

Can we please put the "not winning" counter to rest because lack of W's isn't what has many worried.
 

VF21

Super Moderator Emeritus
SME
People are complaining about player development and the direction of the team and then others counter that with the point you made above.

The two have nothing to do with each other. No one is mad the Kings are losing. We all expected it. It's how the team and games are being managed that has everyone worried.

Can we please put the "not winning" counter to rest because lack of W's isn't what has many worried.
Not "EVERYONE" is worried about how the team and games are being managed. Just clarifying...