Time to panic?

Time to panic?

  • Yes, trade everybody and start the rebuild again

    Votes: 5 9.6%
  • No, just growing pains

    Votes: 39 75.0%
  • Changing the coaching staff will fix many issues

    Votes: 8 15.4%

  • Total voters
    52
I didn't say they missed all, but it attributes to it. Unless you're a spot up specialist, a lot of it is not being allowed to get in rhythm.

Ik I'm beating a dead horse with these Grizzlies examples, but I can pull up exact same stances from fans when they would brick wide open shot after wide open shot. It wasn't until Joerger left they started changing their tune to acknowledging NBA level players need their freedom to flow within an offense and standing and watching and feeding a post guy takes many out of the offense. You can just look at the players on their team's numbers once they left hit a magical rebirth of their stroke. When they got their, they lost it.

Vince Carter is an easy example. Lights out shooter, gets to Orlando in a Dwight Howard system and struggled, got to Dallas and was back at good shooting numbers. Gets to Memphis, dips again on the worst shooting team in the league, Joerger leaves new offense and he shines again. Back here and he's looking more of the same as he did early in Memphis.

Notice everyone and their mother can shoot on the rockets and warriors? The system has plenty to do with it for the role players. Some of these guys, Eric Gordon I wanna say struggled for a bit until getting back into a system like Houston.

I'm not saying we should be like either of those teams, but high post or Zbo iso offense? No bueno.
You are making two different points here....

1) Dave rides his veteran players into the ground.... that’s clearly not the case this year and it diminishes your argument to bring it up.

2) The ZBo iso offense I think is a problem and we saw more evidence of it last night. Hill, Bogdonavich, Willie all play much better with a pick and roll or ball screen type of offense that features more movement and cutting. They also play better defense that can switch and help better.

We shall see how they play offense going forward. Dave’s not a dumb coach and I hope we see less ZBo and more movement.
 
Let me let you in on a little talked about subject these days. Those Kings glory years we all revel over with one of the top teams of all time? Coach Adelman played those Vets BIG minutes and many thought he played them too much. For many years the thought process was that a tight 8 or 9 man rotation was the big ticket. The Stars all would play close to 40 minutes a game. Lots of Coaches did it.

Some still do. Check this link and see how many players are at 35+--> http://www.espn.com/nba/seasonleaders/_/league/nba/sort/avgMinutes
Yes but one is a hall of fame coach that was going for something. Memphis desperately needed to get some future going with an aging core.

I'm not saying you're wrong, but I'm saying that's large in part why he had a good regular season record.

Again, NBA record for most injuries held to a team all-time. Overusing players contributes to part of that. Obviously not all, but remember the crying speech? That was why.

Oh, yeah, our coach also cries in interviews.
 
@Vladizzle made clear points with evidence to back it up and the only response he got was "that's the dumbest thing I have read on the forum" which is not a argument and quiet rude. Either disprove his point with arguments/evidence or don't respond (not talking to your directly). He's got every right to defend himself.
I'm not disputing your points. I'm not even taking sides. Just simply pointing out that he's making a very poor assumption and that the amount of bball Baja has watched isn't at all the issue. I get that he hasn't been around long enough to know one way or the other, but instead of just assuming how about asking??

Ahh got to love message board elitists..

Someone could join the forum tomorrow and have been watching since the 1960s..no need to make judgements based on join dates.
You're just full of poor assumptions, aren't you? I made a valid point. Besides, you're the one that made a judgement on Baja that was so far off it makes you look very naive.

And I didn't at all make a judgement based upon your join date -- which is at least your 2nd poor assumption in this thread. I don't even know when you joined. Don't care. My 'judgement' was solely based upon your assumption that Baja hadn't watched enough basketball to know what you believe you know. Making a comment like that proves that you couldn't have been around this site all too much over the years. If you had been, you'd never had made that statement cause you'd have known it's nowhere close to the truth.

That's the point.

Regarding who is right or wrong about the original point you made and Baja's not so cryptic response to it ... I'm not taking sides on that. But if you're gonna make poor assumptions about those responding to your contributions, you're gonna get called out on it. There's no need to take it personally by questioning how much someone has seen or labeling them elitists. Just stand behind your opinion and continue to support it with facts/evidence. That usually works pretty well.
 
And someone could join the forum tomorrow and not be so naive as to not think that someone who has been around as long as bajaden has probably watched a lot of basketball. Look at his posts. I think you might realize (or should) that he obviously has spent a lot of time watching/following the sport. For you to assume otherwise is pretty silly.
This was the only reason I felt compelled to respond. He could be the brightest bulb on this board and be spot on with what he said --- but that's counteracted when followed up with silly naive statements. That's why I said 'know your audience'.
 

dude12

Hall of Famer
Dave Joerger is a better coach when he has better players......like every coach ever. He wins in Memphis with vets and doesn't get credit for it? Crazy talk. He has a roster of MOSTLY pups and some over the hill former stars and the remainder are solid role players and he is questioned because the team can't quite perform at a higher level after 14-15 games? That is showing no patience.

All you need to know about Joerger is how he got that team in his last year at Memphis (with the incredible amount of injuries and roster turnover), he got them to win. Was worthy of Coach of the Year mention. Guys play hard for the guy. The way the team responded last night after that Atlanta debacle was a great moment for the coaching staff AND the players.
 

Larry89

Disgruntled Kings Fan
Half our roster is rookies and 2nd year players, its going to be atleast 2-3 years before we even start talking about playoffs. As long as everyone plays with a sense of urgency and effort I will be happy. We also have not seen Papa G , Frank Mason that much, we also still have to develop Harry Giles
 
How is it possibly not relevant? It is regarding the now. We signed Zbo and run the same offense sans Marc Gasol with the Kings current team. It isn't catering to our players strengths aside post players (who are too old, or underdeveloped)

Not sure how you don't get where the complaints are coming from.

1. He's running the same offense as he was in Memphis, with significantly less player personnel to fit this.

2. His offense was never successful to begin with.

3. His offense proved to alienate shooters and guards, while focusing on post play..which can explain some of the shooting woes now.


I mean come on now..the running knowledge/joke around the league about the Joerger led Grizzlies was that they beat you by slowing it down to play in the mud and just win by defense and grit.

Why would we want that? We don't have Tony Allen, Mike Conley, Marc Gasol, Zbo, etc all in their prime. Mucking it up and running all slow tempo post play sounds like an awful idea and that's what we've been doing much of the season unless we get in transition.
Joerger is C+ / B- coach. Inflexible, stubborn, egotistic, but he's a bright guy who garners the respect of his players and manages relationships well.
 
If he keeps the changes he made last night, he will have won me back over, even if we lose out all the rest of the way. I mean, is it a coincidence that they looked much better with several key changes, like Hill moving to SG where he didn't have to run point (he had 0 assists, but played much better than what we normally see), cut into Zbo's minutes and usage, and didn't run their usual offense as much.
 
If he keeps the changes he made last night, he will have won me back over, even if we lose out all the rest of the way. I mean, is it a coincidence that they looked much better with several key changes, like Hill moving to SG where he didn't have to run point (he had 0 assists, but played much better than what we normally see), cut into Zbo's minutes and usage, and didn't run their usual offense as much.
Yeah, Willie got to roll almost all night and you see the result. Teams will learn to take some of that away but giving players some confidence on one end will change them on the defensive end for the better as well. Here's the thing though, we've seen unbelievable effort games leading to wins before. If they can consistently hold teams in the mid-80's they have shot to be good I guess. haha. Good effort, great to see, but the same problems can easily come right back.
 
But he's MY B- coach.

This is Sacramento. George Karl is not coming thru that door
You are entitled to "hitch your wagon" to him if you want and if your standard is the Kings could do worse than Joerger then certainly he meets that low bar. As I stated in the other thread in my more detailed assessment of last night, a lot of coaches, including Earl Watson most recently, have been fired for A LOT less than what we have bear witness to over the 1st 14 games:
  • worst point differential
  • 2nd worst defense
  • 2nd worst offense
  • worst rebounding
  • worst shooting
  • third worst pace
How is the coach not remotely culpable for this incompetence? He should be thanking his lucky stars he still has a job! Joerger hitches his wagon to a washed up bum in Barnes last season and helped to torpedo our season. Joerger hitches his wagon to a washed up bum in Z-Bong this season and it was only the humiliating defeat in Atlanta that forced overdue experimentation with his line-up. This is good coaching? This is proactive, insightful and prudence to gain the edge to the degree there is an edge to be discovered? I don't think so. It is change forced upon him due to extreme adversity (-15 point differential) and result of his ineffectiveness as a coach.

It is similar to Vlade. If Vlade ultimately has success as a GM, after passing on Turner for Willie not getting Ingram and possibly D'Angelo Russell for Boogie instead of the poo poo platter than lead to blessed luck at the #5 and $10, but still led to passing on Donovan Mitchell for Justin Jackson, it will be because he stumbled his way there, and got out of his own way and ego and detrimental bias long enough to experience success. The guys in charge at the top are mediocre at their jobs. They are competing against guys who are better than mediocre. They are competing against GMs and coaches who are more astute and intuitive and visionary. This is not to say Vlade and Joerger won't lead us to the playoffs, but with these guys in the driver seat we are not on the express highway we are taking the scenic route. ;)
 
If you expected a team this young and raw to be anything else one month into the season, then that panic is self-inflicted. George Hill was by far our best player on paper coming into the season. You would have had to believe Fox or Skal had generational talent to not see the impending mess that was gonna happen. If we are at the ASB and there is no signs of individual improvement or team cohesiveness, sure, let's panic. But there was a 0% chance it wasn't gonna be an absolute mess the first couple months.
 
You are entitled to "hitch your wagon" to him if you want and if your standard is the Kings could do worse than Joerger then certainly he meets that low bar. As I stated in the other thread in my more detailed assessment of last night, a lot of coaches, including Earl Watson most recently, have been fired for A LOT less than what we have bear witness to over the 1st 14 games:
  • worst point differential
  • 2nd worst defense
  • 2nd worst offense
  • worst rebounding
  • worst shooting
  • third worst pace
How is the coach not remotely culpable for this incompetence? He should be thanking his lucky stars he still has a job! Joerger hitches his wagon to a washed up bum in Barnes last season and helped to torpedo our season. Joerger hitches his wagon to a washed up bum in Z-Bong this season and it was only the humiliating defeat in Atlanta that forced overdue experimentation with his line-up. This is good coaching? This is proactive, insightful and prudence to gain the edge to the degree there is an edge to be discovered? I don't think so. It is change forced upon him due to extreme adversity (-15 point differential) and result of his ineffectiveness as a coach.

It is similar to Vlade. If Vlade ultimately has success as a GM, after passing on Turner for Willie not getting Ingram and possibly D'Angelo Russell for Boogie instead of the poo poo platter than lead to blessed luck at the #5 and $10, but still led to passing on Donovan Mitchell for Justin Jackson, it will be because he stumbled his way there, and got out of his own way and ego and detrimental bias long enough to experience success. The guys in charge at the top are mediocre at their jobs. They are competing against guys who are better than mediocre. They are competing against GMs and coaches who are more astute and intuitive and visionary. This is not to say Vlade and Joerger won't lead us to the playoffs, but with these guys in the driver seat we are not on the express highway we are taking the scenic route. ;)
This is what a tear down is sir. Coach made comments before the season about how this team will have problems in all of those bullet points you just listed. While it's fair game to question his rotations I can't justify faulting him for to much of what happens on the court. When this team scraps and claws for 48 mins they barely squeeze out a W and the Hawks game is what happens when they go through the motions. Believe me I know it's gut wrenching to ask for patience until this thing gets off the ground but it's the only way outside of bricking, and yes I just invented a new KF term there.
 

dude12

Hall of Famer
This is what a tear down is sir. Coach made comments before the season about how this team will have problems in all of those bullet points you just listed. While it's fair game to question his rotations I can't justify faulting him for to much of what happens on the court. When this team scraps and claws for 48 mins they barely squeeze out a W and the Hawks game is what happens when they go through the motions. Believe me I know it's gut wrenching to ask for patience until this thing gets off the ground but it's the only way outside of bricking, and yes I just invented a new KF term there.
Lol. Another new word created from the forum. Previously there was Maloofery and Maloofed and now there is Bricking.
 

kingsboi

Hall of Famer
If he keeps the changes he made last night, he will have won me back over, even if we lose out all the rest of the way. I mean, is it a coincidence that they looked much better with several key changes, like Hill moving to SG where he didn't have to run point (he had 0 assists, but played much better than what we normally see), cut into Zbo's minutes and usage, and didn't run their usual offense as much.
you said it all right there. Play Hill at the 2 with Fox. Less plays run for slow-bo. Even if they get blown out tonight with the same team starting I'm cool with that as long as we don't see the offense being surrounded around Zach.
 
You are entitled to "hitch your wagon" to him if you want and if your standard is the Kings could do worse than Joerger then certainly he meets that low bar. As I stated in the other thread in my more detailed assessment of last night, a lot of coaches, including Earl Watson most recently, have been fired for A LOT less than what we have bear witness to over the 1st 14 games:
  • worst point differential
  • 2nd worst defense
  • 2nd worst offense
  • worst rebounding
  • worst shooting
  • third worst pace
How is the coach not remotely culpable for this incompetence? He should be thanking his lucky stars he still has a job! Joerger hitches his wagon to a washed up bum in Barnes last season and helped to torpedo our season. Joerger hitches his wagon to a washed up bum in Z-Bong this season and it was only the humiliating defeat in Atlanta that forced overdue experimentation with his line-up. This is good coaching? This is proactive, insightful and prudence to gain the edge to the degree there is an edge to be discovered? I don't think so. It is change forced upon him due to extreme adversity (-15 point differential) and result of his ineffectiveness as a coach.

It is similar to Vlade. If Vlade ultimately has success as a GM, after passing on Turner for Willie not getting Ingram and possibly D'Angelo Russell for Boogie instead of the poo poo platter than lead to blessed luck at the #5 and $10, but still led to passing on Donovan Mitchell for Justin Jackson, it will be because he stumbled his way there, and got out of his own way and ego and detrimental bias long enough to experience success. The guys in charge at the top are mediocre at their jobs. They are competing against guys who are better than mediocre. They are competing against GMs and coaches who are more astute and intuitive and visionary. This is not to say Vlade and Joerger won't lead us to the playoffs, but with these guys in the driver seat we are not on the express highway we are taking the scenic route. ;)
The reason the coach isn't "culpable" for this 14 game performance is that the Kings have arguably the greenest worst roster in the league because they have committed to a rebuild.

You're often so smart about basketball (doesn't mean you right about everything) but so relentlessly negative... relentlessly... and you're definitely entitled to it but I don't want to look at things that darkly. As smart as you are I still think you hold a 20-20 hindsight over the organization's head in many cases... and exaggerate the shortcomings. You think he should have changed after maybe 7 games and he actually changed after 14 games and you hold him as stubborn (and worse adjectives). You think it took the 46 point drubbing but you don't know that he wasn't gonna "re-assess after the road trip" anyway.

I'm sure not gonna convince you to embrace Joerger & Vlade. It is plain that you have a lot of contempt for both.

I don't think this squad is underperforming to expectations, and I don't think our rebuild is going poorly, and I like Joerger and Vlade.
 
The reason the coach isn't "culpable" for this 14 game performance is that the Kings have arguably the greenest worst roster in the league because they have committed to a rebuild.

You're often so smart about basketball (doesn't mean you right about everything) but so relentlessly negative... relentlessly... and you're definitely entitled to it but I don't want to look at things that darkly. As smart as you are I still think you hold a 20-20 hindsight over the organization's head in many cases... and exaggerate the shortcomings. You think he should have changed after maybe 7 games and he actually changed after 14 games and you hold him as stubborn (and worse adjectives). You think it took the 46 point drubbing but you don't know that he wasn't gonna "re-assess after the road trip" anyway.

I'm sure not gonna convince you to embrace Joerger & Vlade. It is plain that you have a lot of contempt for both.

I don't think this squad is underperforming to expectations, and I don't think our rebuild is going poorly, and I like Joerger and Vlade.

But he is culpable for how he runs his roster. Negative play and vibes have bubbled up more than anything this year. Lets just hope it doesn't bubble up and over. You can't necessarily judge young players immediately or a general management job based on the talent assembled at such an early stage but how they are used is a fluid situation that can be assessed at any given point in the season.
 
You are entitled to "hitch your wagon" to him if you want and if your standard is the Kings could do worse than Joerger then certainly he meets that low bar. As I stated in the other thread in my more detailed assessment of last night, a lot of coaches, including Earl Watson most recently, have been fired for A LOT less than what we have bear witness to over the 1st 14 games:
  • worst point differential
  • 2nd worst defense
  • 2nd worst offense
  • worst rebounding
  • worst shooting
  • third worst pace
How is the coach not remotely culpable for this incompetence? He should be thanking his lucky stars he still has a job! Joerger hitches his wagon to a washed up bum in Barnes last season and helped to torpedo our season. Joerger hitches his wagon to a washed up bum in Z-Bong this season and it was only the humiliating defeat in Atlanta that forced overdue experimentation with his line-up. This is good coaching? This is proactive, insightful and prudence to gain the edge to the degree there is an edge to be discovered? I don't think so. It is change forced upon him due to extreme adversity (-15 point differential) and result of his ineffectiveness as a coach.

It is similar to Vlade. If Vlade ultimately has success as a GM, after passing on Turner for Willie not getting Ingram and possibly D'Angelo Russell for Boogie instead of the poo poo platter than lead to blessed luck at the #5 and $10, but still led to passing on Donovan Mitchell for Justin Jackson, it will be because he stumbled his way there, and got out of his own way and ego and detrimental bias long enough to experience success. The guys in charge at the top are mediocre at their jobs. They are competing against guys who are better than mediocre. They are competing against GMs and coaches who are more astute and intuitive and visionary. This is not to say Vlade and Joerger won't lead us to the playoffs, but with these guys in the driver seat we are not on the express highway we are taking the scenic route. ;)
Real easy to pick Vlade apart since your hindsight is 20/20, ehh?
 

VF21

Super Moderator Emeritus
SME
How is it possibly not relevant? It is regarding the now. We signed Zbo and run the same offense sans Marc Gasol with the Kings current team. It isn't catering to our players strengths aside post players (who are too old, or underdeveloped)

Not sure how you don't get where the complaints are coming from.

1. He's running the same offense as he was in Memphis, with significantly less player personnel to fit this.

2. His offense was never successful to begin with.

3. His offense proved to alienate shooters and guards, while focusing on post play..which can explain some of the shooting woes now.


I mean come on now..the running knowledge/joke around the league about the Joerger led Grizzlies was that they beat you by slowing it down to play in the mud and just win by defense and grit.

Why would we want that? We don't have Tony Allen, Mike Conley, Marc Gasol, Zbo, etc all in their prime. Mucking it up and running all slow tempo post play sounds like an awful idea and that's what we've been doing much of the season unless we get in transition.
What I see primarily is YOU complaining. I don't agree with you ... and that's fine. We'll have to revisit this in a couple of years when it matters. :)

Have a nice night ... and GO KINGS!
 

gunks

Hall of Famer
Ayton looks incredible.
Knock on him is bad hands, but everything else about the dude screams allstar.

Honestly, the chance of a top 5 pick is the only thing keeping me around this team. Lot of really, really great prospects at the top of this upcoming draft.