Free Agency Open Thread (NBA and Kings!)

Good post. I agree Carter has a lot more to teach the kids than Carroll. But that's not what I was asking. Having expierenced a lot is positive when it comes to passing your wisdom to the younger generation, but it doesn't mean you are a good teacher. Just a simple example - my father at his time was one of the leading german experts when it came to marine technology. He was an outstanding development engineer and had quite a few patent applications. So in theory he is excactly the type of guy, you want young engineers to learn from. Problem is, he is a horrible teacher. ;) The old man is and always was pretty much like a confused professor. He can hardly explain simple things like integration to his grandchilds, because he just can't follow a simple path, but wants to explain 3 different methods to one problem at once. Whenever I was forced to learn for maths exams in school, my father came in, eager to help and after a few hours of fruitless attempts to explain things to me, it ended up with me explaining to him, how we do things in school and him rambling over how idiotic and over complicated our "school methods" were. Nowadays this are beloved memories, but at that time.....:D But back to the topic: For us from the outside looking in, there is no way to find out, who of those guys is a good teacher. From what we heard out of our now sophomores the guy they bonded the most with was Temple. Temple is not a high profile NBA player, but he may be a great teacher. I remember Temple saying, that the rookies nowadays want to be treated as man and want to be respected. That for example was an entirely different approach, than the approach Rudy Gay had towards young guys, who repeatedly made fun of them in interviews or suggested he didn't know their names, because they were rookies and such (DMC had similar tendencies, but in public was a lot more supportive towards the young players). It may be this method of empowerment towards the rookies, that made Temple their favorite vet and a guy, they willingly learned from. So I would guess you don't have to be a high profile player to be a great teacher and if you are a high profile player, it doesn't automatically mean you can teach things. The thing we do know, is that Joerger knows Carter well enough. So if Joerger wanted Carter as a teacher for the young guys, we pretty much have to trust him. I'm still not excited, because I do think using our capspace differently may have gotten us a few additional assets, but that's hypothetical and a different topic.
I cannot disagree with anything you have said.You are right, we don't know what these guys are like as teachers. However, I would argue that coach Joerger would and our signings of Randolph and Carter have a VERY strong Joerger influence. In the last 12 months as the coach of the Kings, he has mentioned both Zbo and Vince in interviews more than once.
 
What about in 2018-2019 when we have no pick and we're trying to make the playoffs? We'd have Carroll's contract weighing us down and a late first round pick for the g league.
Carrol will provide more value on the floor than Zbo '18-19 and the contract is the same length. Carrol plays a premium position: small forward and its very hard to get starting level legit sf without paying big money. Kings have only one sf in the roster (assuming they wouldnt have overpaid for VC) so he wouldnt take that much playing time from any kid unless your plan is to play someone at the wrong position. Zbo is a non shooting big (aka center) and Kings have WCS, Papa, Giles, KK and maybe Skal at that position. Having two years of Carrol is much better than two years of Zbo especially when you gain additional assets by taking Carrol. Plus there is a chance we would be able to rehabilitate him back to being an asset.
 
I cannot disagree with anything you have said.You are right, we don't know what these guys are like as teachers. However, I would argue that coach Joerger would and our signings of Randolph and Carter have a VERY strong Joerger influence. In the last 12 months as the coach of the Kings, he has mentioned both Zbo and Vince in interviews more than once.
I agree and I think Joerger is an upper echolon NBA coach and knows how to implement a culture of hard work and not giving up. VF21 and a few other posters are right - at some point you have to trust as a fan, because you don't have enough insight. Now I don't trust Vlade one bit anymore and probably never will again, but I do trust Joerger. He wanted these guys and I have to hope he knows what he is doing.
 
What leads to the conclusion, that Carter is a solid teacher? And how should we know, if Carroll is not a solid teacher too?
I was watching another summer league game and one of the announcers said he had talked to several management people from other teams, who all said that if they could pick one player in the league to mentor their youth, it would be Vince Carter.
 
I think Joerger is a good coach. That said, I still wonder why it took so long for WCS to play like a motivated player on the floor. If WCS were over in San Antonio do you think his "on button" would have been pressed much sooner? Hell, yeah. WCS actually implied that it was the fans who were more responsible than the coaching staff in finally rebounding outside "his area." The addition of these veterans is going to "amplify" the voice of Joerger. He isn't going to always have to be the bad guy who gets on a player to play the right way. He can save his bad guy capital for key moments during the season, or he can literally delegate it to some of the veterans who know what life is and know what the professional game of basketball is. It's just not going to be culturally acceptable for any of the young players to not play with 100% effort at all times and not to have the intent to play 100% the right way all the time, not their individual way. The best way to mold youth is to mold them early; the longer you wait to mold them, the harder it is. The tree that isn't straightened early in its development each year becomes harder and harder to train, until one day it's impossible. This move by Vlade to bring in well respected veterans will pay off in the years to come, in the subtle intangibles that are hard to recognize on the floor. But when they finally start winning we will definitely recognize it.
 
Carrol will provide more value on the floor than Zbo '18-19 and the contract is the same length. Carrol plays a premium position: small forward and its very hard to get starting level legit sf without paying big money. Kings have only one sf in the roster (assuming they wouldnt have overpaid for VC) so he wouldnt take that much playing time from any kid unless your plan is to play someone at the wrong position. Zbo is a non shooting big (aka center) and Kings have WCS, Papa, Giles, KK and maybe Skal at that position. Having two years of Carrol is much better than two years of Zbo especially when you gain additional assets by taking Carrol. Plus there is a chance we would be able to rehabilitate him back to being an asset.
Carroll is not a starting caliber SF. At this point he may not even be a backup caliber SF. 40 year old Vince Carter put up pretty much the same stats, albeit with a higher 3P% and more assists than a 30 year old Carroll and he's an ideal mentor. I thought so before, but hearing him during the SL game last night, you know that's exactly what he'll be.

Plus, his one year deal means the Kings will have cap room next offseason.

A late first round pick is a nice thing to have (Toronto will likely pick around #25) but an extra $15 million in cap room is probably a better asset, not to mention having the roster spot that he'd be taking up. I liked Carroll's game a lot but watching him last year he just looked done.
 

origkds

What- Me Worry?
I agree and I think Joerger is an upper echolon NBA coach and knows how to implement a culture of hard work and not giving up. VF21 and a few other posters are right - at some point you have to trust as a fan, because you don't have enough insight. Now I don't trust Vlade one bit anymore and probably never will again, but I do trust Joerger. He wanted these guys and I have to hope he knows what he is doing.
Huh, correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Vlade hire Joerger?
 
I agree and I think Joerger is an upper echolon NBA coach and knows how to implement a culture of hard work and not giving up. VF21 and a few other posters are right - at some point you have to trust as a fan, because you don't have enough insight. Now I don't trust Vlade one bit anymore and probably never will again, but I do trust Joerger. He wanted these guys and I have to hope he knows what he is doing.
I'm not sure I trust Joerger either. He's shown a tendency to want short term results at the expense of long term viability, IMO
 

origkds

What- Me Worry?
Once again, correct me if I'm misconstruing the first line of your statement ("I agree and I think Joerger is an upper echolon NBA coach and knows how to implement a culture of hard work and not giving up."), but to me it seems to infer that you agree with the decision that Vlade made to hire Joeger. So you don't trust Vlade but you agree with his decision to hire Joeger?
 
I'm not sure I trust Joerger either. He's shown a tendency to want short term results at the expense of long term viability, IMO
I guess we'll really see about that this time around since the entire roster is nearly made up of young players so the least Vlade can do is bring in some Joerger type of guys to compensate.
 
Once again, correct me if I'm misconstruing the first line of your statement ("I agree and I think Joerger is an upper echolon NBA coach and knows how to implement a culture of hard work and not giving up."), but to me it seems to infer that you agree with the decision that Vlade made to hire Joeger. So you don't trust Vlade but you agree with his decision to hire Joeger?
I think it's not unreasonable to assume, that there are some people, that do trust Vlade and aren't on board with all of his decisions, just like some don't trust him, but aren't against all of his decisions.
Even though I'm one of the more vocal critics of Vlade on this board, I gave him more than enough credit for the things he did well from my humble point of view as a fan.
If you want a more detailed answer why I don't trust Vlade we can go there, but this would be kinda off topic and like usual it would upset a lot of posters around here.
I'm realistic enough to know, that for the next couple of years I have to live with Vlade as the GM of the NBA team I love. That doesn't mean I have to like it.
 

origkds

What- Me Worry?
I think it's not unreasonable to assume, that there are some people, that do trust Vlade and aren't on board with all of his decisions, just like some don't trust him, but aren't against all of his decisions.
Even though I'm one of the more vocal critics of Vlade on this board, I gave him more than enough credit for the things he did well from my humble point of view as a fan.
If you want a more detailed answer why I don't trust Vlade we can go there, but this would be kinda off topic and like usual it would upset a lot of posters around here.
I'm realistic enough to know, that for the next couple of years I have to live with Vlade as the GM of the NBA team I love. That doesn't mean I have to like it.
Fair enough and you're right, tiresome discussions are to be avoided at all costs.
 
I was watching another summer league game and one of the announcers said he had talked to several management people from other teams, who all said that if they could pick one player in the league to mentor their youth, it would be Vince Carter.
I wouldn't be surprised if Vlade and coach Joeger plan is to bring Vince Carter back as an assistant coach after next season ends. :)
 
Carroll is not a starting caliber SF. At this point he may not even be a backup caliber SF. 40 year old Vince Carter put up pretty much the same stats, albeit with a higher 3P% and more assists than a 30 year old Carroll and he's an ideal mentor. I thought so before, but hearing him during the SL game last night, you know that's exactly what he'll be.

Plus, his one year deal means the Kings will have cap room next offseason.

A late first round pick is a nice thing to have (Toronto will likely pick around #25) but an extra $15 million in cap room is probably a better asset, not to mention having the roster spot that he'd be taking up. I liked Carroll's game a lot but watching him last year he just looked done.
I was saying that we should have done this deal instead of signing Zbo. I dont care about signing VC its only one year and he wont help the team win that much at his age so im perfectly fine with that.

Carrol is very average small forward but there arent many guys in the league that are legit sf size and can hit some shots. Kings doesnt have to stress about winning next season but when we intend to become a winning team, we need multiple bodies like Carrol who can defend the monster small forwards like PG, KD, Lebron, Kawhi, Hayward and as importantly, switch on defence and hold their ground against big men and guards. Carrol doesnt do any of that in elite level but he is not bad either at any of that. And that has value in todays Nba. Kings are not in that position yet but we will need guys like him in a year or two, thats the premium player type at the moment in the nba.

Im not saying Carrol is some good player but he isnt a scrub either and Kings doesnt have any players like him. They do have a half a squad full of non shooting bigs though so thats also one reason I wouldve done this deal instead of signing Zbo to his two year contract. Plus Carrols contribution to winning isnt that important to me, alltough we most likely wouldnt be able to get that much of an upgrade compared to him in free agency. Might be that he is completely done as an nba player but Zbo in second year in his contract wont be a contributor in a winning team. Especially since we most likely have to play him as pf

And the value of those assets really comes to play when you combine them with another assets. Moving up in the draft or lets say combine them with Koufos and upgrade him for a better player. Without those kinds of assets the only ways to improve are draft and free agency. Kings most likely wont have room next year either way to sign a real impact player so that makes those kind of assets even more valuable.
 
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I'm pretty sure Temple can be a better spot duty 3 than Carroll at this point
Temple doesnt have the body type to guard those wings I listes, plus a winning team needs multiple wings able to switch on d and hold their own on those situations. Temple can do that but he isnt a main defender for those guys. He is a guy that can guard the best guard on opposition. Not really those allmost seven footers.

Plus its not about is Carrol an upgrade over our current wings, its about getting those assets. Everything that he contributes beyond that is a positive. He might be able to become a solid starter. If not, we gained assets for taking him and might be able to move his expiring contract

E: only reason I even started talking about his abilities is because currently we have zero players with his size and ability. But its not the main point.
 

VF21

Super Moderator Emeritus
SME
I think it's not unreasonable to assume, that there are some people, that do trust Vlade and aren't on board with all of his decisions, just like some don't trust him, but aren't against all of his decisions.
Even though I'm one of the more vocal critics of Vlade on this board, I gave him more than enough credit for the things he did well from my humble point of view as a fan.
If you want a more detailed answer why I don't trust Vlade we can go there, but this would be kinda off topic and like usual it would upset a lot of posters around here.
I'm realistic enough to know, that for the next couple of years I have to live with Vlade as the GM of the NBA team I love. That doesn't mean I have to like it.
:rolleyes:
 
I think Joerger is a good coach. That said, I still wonder why it took so long for WCS to play like a motivated player on the floor. If WCS were over in San Antonio do you think his "on button" would have been pressed much sooner? Hell, yeah. WCS actually implied that it was the fans who were more responsible than the coaching staff in finally rebounding outside "his area." The addition of these veterans is going to "amplify" the voice of Joerger. He isn't going to always have to be the bad guy who gets on a player to play the right way. He can save his bad guy capital for key moments during the season, or he can literally delegate it to some of the veterans who know what life is and know what the professional game of basketball is. It's just not going to be culturally acceptable for any of the young players to not play with 100% effort at all times and not to have the intent to play 100% the right way all the time, not their individual way. The best way to mold youth is to mold them early; the longer you wait to mold them, the harder it is. The tree that isn't straightened early in its development each year becomes harder and harder to train, until one day it's impossible. This move by Vlade to bring in well respected veterans will pay off in the years to come, in the subtle intangibles that are hard to recognize on the floor. But when they finally start winning we will definitely recognize it.
When is Aldridge's button getting pressed?
 
Demarre Carroll is broke. And some fans won't be happy until we have 15 young 1st, 2nd and 3rd year guys with zero veterans. We will have another high lotto pick next year. We don't need more youth. We need experienced youth....not more inexperienced youth.
 
Demarre Carroll is broke. And some fans won't be happy until we have 15 young 1st, 2nd and 3rd year guys with zero veterans. We will have another high lotto pick next year. We don't need more youth. We need experienced youth....not more inexperienced youth.
We still could have given Vince 5 mil and taken on carroll. Just don't sign ZBO, and we could have done the Carroll deal with a couple more assets in the war chest.

Asset collection never stops people, that's the trap most of you are falling in. You never stop building towards the future and looking ahead, especially when you're a bad team like we are. You collect, collect, collect and use your opportunity to cash in when the time is right (Houston with Harden, Philly with Fultz, etc.)
 
Demarre Carroll is broke. And some fans won't be happy until we have 15 young 1st, 2nd and 3rd year guys with zero veterans. We will have another high lotto pick next year. We don't need more youth. We need experienced youth....not more inexperienced youth.
Unless of course that high lotto pick turns into a special player. If it's another good but not great talent, then I agree that's not really what we need. However, if we managed to happen upon Michael Porter (SF) or Luka Doncic (SG/SF), then that would be a very nice addition to our roster.

We still could have given Vince 5 mil and taken on carroll. Just don't sign ZBO, and we could have done the Carroll deal with a couple more assets in the war chest.

Asset collection never stops people, that's the trap most of you are falling in. You never stop building towards the future and looking ahead, especially when you're a bad team like we are. You collect, collect, collect and use your opportunity to cash in when the time is right (Houston with Harden, Philly with Fultz, etc.)
If Carroll can get healthy, stay healthy, and return to the level he produced in Atlanta - then he could have been a very good addition. However, he's not looked the same player since leaving Atlanta and he's struggled to stay healthy. It could be a case we take a late first round pick and a player that doesn't really contribute. Based off Carroll's recent performances with the Raptors I'd rather throw Jackson into the lineup and see what he's got.

ZBO has stayed healthy and produced, he's even moved into a sixth man role and produced. So if he has the same role here with Skal starting, or ZBO starts and Skal is off the bench, then that PF duo is very good. For me, he's a good addition to this team and I'd rather have him than Carroll.
 
Vince Carter is an absolute legend for these kids, plus did you see him at SL talking to the guys all game? That kind of elder presence is invaluable. You don't get that with Carroll and you get a guy that is really only mediocre after his injury. I'm baffled at this fascination that Carroll would have like totally made our offseason. Or, are you really that delusional that another late first rounder is make or break for us?

I'd much rather have Vince Carter around these guys, and frankly he can hold down the three position in limited minutes just fine. Better 3pt shooter than Carroll anyway.

And... you'd be committing 15M to Carrol NEXT season too?? Srsly??
 
Demarre Carroll is broke. And some fans won't be happy until we have 15 young 1st, 2nd and 3rd year guys with zero veterans. We will have another high lotto pick next year. We don't need more youth. We need experienced youth....not more inexperienced youth.
No. We need more star potential youth. Gathering assets gives us more flexibility to land quality youth via trade ups.

What if we had thirteen 19-21 year olds who were all drafted in the 2nd round? Would you arrive at the same conclusion? "We have 13 young guys. We obviously have enough youth to rebuild. Let's get going!"

Of course not. Nobody in their right mind would argue that point. Yes, it is an extreme but sometimes you have to bring up extremes to help people realize their is a balance between both sides.

Yes, we should have some veteran role players to mentor the kids. And yes, we should be doing what we can to increase our odds at adding more star potential youth. I still think Fox, Hield, Labissiere, & Giles all have star potential on this team. If you only watched summer league, you would probably shorten that list to just Fox.

We need to be very careful and very patient right now. Fans tend to overhype their own players very easily and thus think all if not the majority of our young guys are going to hit their ceiling. That's not going to happen. That's not to say these guys are going to absolutely bust, but it's very unlikely they all reach the high ceilings many have established for them on this forum.

Our 2018 pick is another great opportunity to land a star and having 1-2 more 1sts in our back pocket could come in handy if we're wanting to trade up for a guy we think can be a star.
 
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No. We need more star potential youth. Gathering assets gives us more flexibility to land quality youth via trade ups.
After three summer league games, I'm convinced we have a future star if not superstar point guard in Fox.

I'm hoping one of Skal, Bogs, Hield, Giles, or even Papa, can get to star or borderline all star level.

In terms of the amount of star potential youth, we're pretty stacked actually. And then you can always have a sleeper like Malachi, Mason, Jackson, WCS that could also blow up. You start adding up the numbers and you just have to figure at least 2 or 3 turn out to be outstanding players. This is what the Spurs did/do.

What's great is that I legitimately feel we have zero busts among our whole team. That right there gives you assets you can trade for more chances at Starsy McStarserpants.
 
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After three summer league games, I'm convinced we have a future star if not superstar point guard in Fox.

I'm hoping one of Skal, Bogs, Hield, Giles, or even Papa, can get to star or borderline all star level.

In terms of the amount of star potential youth, we're pretty stacked actually. And then you can always have a sleeper like Malachi, Mason, Jackson, WCS that could also blow up. You start adding up the numbers and you just have to figure at least 2 or 3 turn out to be outstanding players. This is what the Spurs did/do.
I don't agree with this. We have a few guys that are long shots. That's not wise to bank on that. You have other teams like Philly who have Embiid, Simmons, Saric, & Fultz. Yeah that's 4 players (like you mentioned) but does anybody really want Fox, Hield, Labissiere, & Giles over those 4? How high the ceiling is and how much more likely the players will reach that star potential has to be considered. Simply looking just at # of people who could be stars can get you into trouble.

Continue to add star potential talent UNTIL some of these guys actually start to play like stars.