Vet free agents and filling out the roster
- Thread starter ovrush
- Start date
As I've said before, you need to get yourself the best odds to succeed. Kings got very lucky this year and we shouldnt count on that next year. Plus it will be easier to "tank" next season. Lakers dont have their pick and most likely wont start to shut it down in the middle of the season. Brooklyn also most likely will be better.
If our young guys starts overachieving then so be it. It will increase their value as assets and we remain our flexibility.
Plus the time to "turn the corner" most definetly isnt now. We have no franchise players yet and very small odds that any of our own guys will become one. We have a nice core that will turn into a good team IF we get that real number one player. Easiest way to do it is to get it via draft. Top free agents wont sign here so getting a franchise guy via free agency will be tricky. The best we can do with max offer is to either get +30 year old whose contract will be bad at the end or a player like Harrison Barnes where we need to count on being a cabable number 1 guy or the contract will be a huge mistake.
Plus if we try to turn the corner now, then thats it for improving the team. We would be locked in with the players we have and miss out an opportunity to gain more assets to help us in the future when we have a real chance to get competitive in the long run
If our young guys starts overachieving then so be it. It will increase their value as assets and we remain our flexibility.
Plus the time to "turn the corner" most definetly isnt now. We have no franchise players yet and very small odds that any of our own guys will become one. We have a nice core that will turn into a good team IF we get that real number one player. Easiest way to do it is to get it via draft. Top free agents wont sign here so getting a franchise guy via free agency will be tricky. The best we can do with max offer is to either get +30 year old whose contract will be bad at the end or a player like Harrison Barnes where we need to count on being a cabable number 1 guy or the contract will be a huge mistake.
Plus if we try to turn the corner now, then thats it for improving the team. We would be locked in with the players we have and miss out an opportunity to gain more assets to help us in the future when we have a real chance to get competitive in the long run
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The problem is exactly the situation you so desperately want to keep us in. We have constantly been picking seventh or eigth because people like you refuse to be patient and want to literally ruin our franchise by signing old guy like Millsap to a horrible contract. Only because "its not fun for me if they lose a lot next season". Geez..
I didn't know he was still in the league 
https://theundefeated.com/features/tayshaun-prince-is-not-ready-to-unlace-his-sneakers/
Just sign a couple solid bench guys to loaded(if warranted) but short contracts. No need to create a situation like last year where the Vets are demanding minutes but we are losing anyway and not finding time for the kids.
Vets will be needed if guys like fox,skal,bogdan etc struggle or slump at some point and need a break or need there minutes cut down to regroup, otherwise let the youngins run.
DO NOT give Joerger to many vets this upcoming year as he has shown a tendency to heavily lean on them even when its clear that the younger player should play.
If we Max out a guy like Milsap or someone else that would be a huge mistake, his timeline is not in line with our young guys and he would ONLY be coming here for money.
This year should be a growing/development year, I know people do not want to tank but a group of 19-23 year olds, with 4 of them being rookies and no star do not realistic stand a chance at the playoffs out west if you look at the 8-11 teams (Minnisota, Pelicans,Mavs, Nuggets,Blazers) all are in better situations than us currently.
I think this year you let the young guns run the show with some bench vet presence to guide them and to step in when things get too rough but do not go out and waste cap space on a win now signing, we have jumped the gun on trying to win too fast and skipping steps and it has bit us big time, hopefully Vlade learns from his mistakes and values next years pick as its our last first rounder until 2020.
Vets will be needed if guys like fox,skal,bogdan etc struggle or slump at some point and need a break or need there minutes cut down to regroup, otherwise let the youngins run.
DO NOT give Joerger to many vets this upcoming year as he has shown a tendency to heavily lean on them even when its clear that the younger player should play.
If we Max out a guy like Milsap or someone else that would be a huge mistake, his timeline is not in line with our young guys and he would ONLY be coming here for money.
This year should be a growing/development year, I know people do not want to tank but a group of 19-23 year olds, with 4 of them being rookies and no star do not realistic stand a chance at the playoffs out west if you look at the 8-11 teams (Minnisota, Pelicans,Mavs, Nuggets,Blazers) all are in better situations than us currently.
I think this year you let the young guns run the show with some bench vet presence to guide them and to step in when things get too rough but do not go out and waste cap space on a win now signing, we have jumped the gun on trying to win too fast and skipping steps and it has bit us big time, hopefully Vlade learns from his mistakes and values next years pick as its our last first rounder until 2020.
Are you sure that we don't have that player yet? Fox and possibly Gilles? What about Buddy? Any player you get next year from the draft, are you sure they are going to be "it?" Or is it going the following year when we don't yet have a draft pick? I don't know what we have in the youth. If the powers to be think we have our cornerstone(s) then the time is now. The team has flexibility.
I'm not sure I could get on board with a Milsap signing. But I've been wrong before. I don't see the transition from Milsap to his replacement if he is the only reason for the extra wins.
But someone like Porter (not likely) where you are plugging a hole with someone who could continue with the team's grown that would be different. Or even Teodosic, if you think Fox is "It."
There are many reasons to try to turn the corner IF the opportunity is there? The losses will probably come simply because of the age of the team. No need for planning for failure on the court.
I'm not sure I could get on board with a Milsap signing. But I've been wrong before. I don't see the transition from Milsap to his replacement if he is the only reason for the extra wins.
But someone like Porter (not likely) where you are plugging a hole with someone who could continue with the team's grown that would be different. Or even Teodosic, if you think Fox is "It."
There are many reasons to try to turn the corner IF the opportunity is there? The losses will probably come simply because of the age of the team. No need for planning for failure on the court.
That's one of the reasons I like going all in on Porter and if we don't land him it's no loss - it probably keeps us from doing further harm to ourselves (but shows the run of the mill fanbase that we're willing to attempt a smart signing).
But besides Bogdan I really don't expect us to do more than make 2-3 depth signings on 2 year deals. That's our track record so far and I know Vlade and crew know realistically where we are at and that our SF of the future is likely in the next lottery draft.
2018-2019 is the season for us to make a stab at winning since we don't own our own pick and we don't have anything else riding on the next two seasons other than evaluating the talent we do have now.
If the cap has gone down this year, and who knows where it will be next offseason, we might be in really good shape if we keep space for the next offseason and more teams bury themselves. So far we have yet to put anyone on a 4-year new cap era deal. Most teams have, and those who haven't are likely going to have to maintain their young cores in the next two seasons, a year before we get there.
But besides Bogdan I really don't expect us to do more than make 2-3 depth signings on 2 year deals. That's our track record so far and I know Vlade and crew know realistically where we are at and that our SF of the future is likely in the next lottery draft.
2018-2019 is the season for us to make a stab at winning since we don't own our own pick and we don't have anything else riding on the next two seasons other than evaluating the talent we do have now.
If the cap has gone down this year, and who knows where it will be next offseason, we might be in really good shape if we keep space for the next offseason and more teams bury themselves. So far we have yet to put anyone on a 4-year new cap era deal. Most teams have, and those who haven't are likely going to have to maintain their young cores in the next two seasons, a year before we get there.
Fox looks to be the only one who cold be a solid franchise player. That obviously requires that he developes good off the dribble three pointer so he could really be efficent in pick n roll. Hield doesnt have the acceleration to blow past defenders and finishing on the rim so he most likely wont be an efficent number one option. I really like Hield, even before the trade due to his ability to shoot hard contested threes so that means he could average like eigth 3pa/game. He will be a fine 2nd or third option. Giles is a huge question mark and as a franchise Kings cant count on him at all and anything they get from him would be a positive. There is a slight chance he'll become a good starter but he will be a center in this league unless he becomes a three point shooter.
The higher our draft pick is next year, higher the possibility to get that franchise player. Thats just fact.
Signing Porter would be great as I've said before. It's just the type of signing that would be good for us. The bad thing is its sure that Washington will match anything. The signings I've advocated not to do are for those players who are in or past their prime and contracts that arent great in '19. Thats it. If you get Snell for 4/30 of course you do it. The thing is he will get colser to 4/55. And signing players like him to contract like that would make it impossible to get a near max caliber player in '19. Plus it makes it hard to aquire assets for cap space. And those assets makes it possible to develope your team in long term even when you are out of cap space
The higher our draft pick is next year, higher the possibility to get that franchise player. Thats just fact.
Signing Porter would be great as I've said before. It's just the type of signing that would be good for us. The bad thing is its sure that Washington will match anything. The signings I've advocated not to do are for those players who are in or past their prime and contracts that arent great in '19. Thats it. If you get Snell for 4/30 of course you do it. The thing is he will get colser to 4/55. And signing players like him to contract like that would make it impossible to get a near max caliber player in '19. Plus it makes it hard to aquire assets for cap space. And those assets makes it possible to develope your team in long term even when you are out of cap space
Team tried to build around Cousins and it failed. Does it mean that it is mandatory to try to start try to win again immediately no matter whats the situation? In my opinion, no. It is impossible to create a winning team right after you trade away your best player. The idea of trading away you franchise player is to gain assets that help you win in the future. Because the time when those assets are either developed or became concrete players, then is your best chance to really be succesfull for a long time. Win now moves will destroy the benefits of the Cousins trade and sentence us for a team thats ceiling is 8th seed and floor is 7th pick
After giving this some thought, I think we should go after:
(1) Paul Millsap
(2) Tony Snell (or Andre Roberson)
(3) Ty Lawson
I know Millsap is expensive and long in the tooth, but he will make everyone on our team better and ease pressure on all the young guys. He can be the cog to our offense and defense and give Buddy, Fox and Skal the freedom to excel. Millsap can initiate the offense from the high post AND run pick and roll with our PGs. This is what SI has to say about Millsap:
Paul Millsap
Millsap will be paid like a star because he is one, no matter how he might be regarded by the most casual NBA fans. What they often fail to see are the things that coaches fret over and teammates appreciate. Millsap is one of the best in the league at making up for his teammates’ mistakes, whether by switching outright, holding his rotation longer than he’d like, or popping up to defend the rim. His hands are ridiculously disruptive for his position. He also lives in that space between positions, where to guard Millsap with a wing leaves a defense vulnerable to post-ups and drives but a more traditional big might not be able to keep up with him. His presence makes a team smarter; teammates understand where to go based on where Millsap sets them up with his interior passes and they grasp the nuances of a team defense from how he executes. A pro’s pro.
(1) Paul Millsap
(2) Tony Snell (or Andre Roberson)
(3) Ty Lawson
I know Millsap is expensive and long in the tooth, but he will make everyone on our team better and ease pressure on all the young guys. He can be the cog to our offense and defense and give Buddy, Fox and Skal the freedom to excel. Millsap can initiate the offense from the high post AND run pick and roll with our PGs. This is what SI has to say about Millsap:
Paul Millsap
Millsap will be paid like a star because he is one, no matter how he might be regarded by the most casual NBA fans. What they often fail to see are the things that coaches fret over and teammates appreciate. Millsap is one of the best in the league at making up for his teammates’ mistakes, whether by switching outright, holding his rotation longer than he’d like, or popping up to defend the rim. His hands are ridiculously disruptive for his position. He also lives in that space between positions, where to guard Millsap with a wing leaves a defense vulnerable to post-ups and drives but a more traditional big might not be able to keep up with him. His presence makes a team smarter; teammates understand where to go based on where Millsap sets them up with his interior passes and they grasp the nuances of a team defense from how he executes. A pro’s pro.
We aren't that far apart. The only thing I would greatly disagree with you about is I don't want the team to plan to purposely get that higher draft pick. I want the team to get the players (only three left if (can't spell his name) comes over) to be successful next year and the years (plural) following. If the contract is reasonable contracts, do it. I agree with not squandering the cap space, however the Kings only have so many slots available and to exchange cap space for assets requires a slot to put said player even if it is just to cut him.
The thing is to me that it looks like you understand that it would be more rational to wait a year to start the win now process but you dont care. I'm not sure how big you see the difference in starting the win now today instead of next year. To me, if done smartly, the difference is huge in long term and in short term
Painful truth.
With no 2019 pick and a roster loaded with young talent we really have to look at maximizing next years pick. I'm not saying lose games on purpose, but filling up the roster with players that will eat at the kids' minutes really serves no purpose either. How can we evaluate which guys are keepers if they are on the bench? I know coach is going to make them earn their minutes but there's no reason to make that job impossible. We should not be signing stop gap players or guys already on the down side of their careers.
Yes that means chasing a restricted free agent or two. And yes, likely that means missing those targets, re-signing Lawson to a short deal and rolling the dice with what we have. Anybody who thinks next year's team is anything but a sneak preview of what may be to come is deluding themselves.
With no 2019 pick and a roster loaded with young talent we really have to look at maximizing next years pick. I'm not saying lose games on purpose, but filling up the roster with players that will eat at the kids' minutes really serves no purpose either. How can we evaluate which guys are keepers if they are on the bench? I know coach is going to make them earn their minutes but there's no reason to make that job impossible. We should not be signing stop gap players or guys already on the down side of their careers.
Yes that means chasing a restricted free agent or two. And yes, likely that means missing those targets, re-signing Lawson to a short deal and rolling the dice with what we have. Anybody who thinks next year's team is anything but a sneak preview of what may be to come is deluding themselves.
Thats exactly the point! We have never done a proper rebuild over the last decade until the all star break trade. And even then we lucked into moving up to get Fox because we kept all our savy vets that squeeked out more wins and nearly bumped us up high enoigh where we would have loat that pick. Even if Fox is a cornerstone that isnt enough. We need 1 more young stud talent and he is in the top of the 2018 draft which has a few stud SF prospects. Then we will be ready to turn the corner. Until then, i will be very angry to see any decent starter free agent or better signings that will ruin the odds of getting one of those atud SFs next year because then we will more likely be rihgjt back in the no mans zone floating around thw 8th seed because we cant get amy talent around say Fox. Then in 6 to 7 years we trade Fox for somw young guys and a 1st to try the whole thing again. This is the road you are advocating steering us down. Please Please Please no.
Im 100% in the camp that the plan ahould be use the cap to get future picks for bad contracts, flyers on young guys in the league that have upside or the off chance at getting Porter.
I don't agree with the argument our young guys need to learn how to play hard by watching old vets. The guys Vlade have targeted are playets that understand this already and if teachable can learn what they need to from the coaches. There are plenty of examplea of yoing guys thrown to the wolves and are not "ruined" by struggling across all sports. Getting really familiar with their own weaknesses can be a good extra motivator and failer a great teacher in its own right. Guys that cant handle it and go the way of BMAC are guys that dont have the mental make up to likely ever be a key part of an upper echelon team.
No. I understand it MAY be more rational to wait a year IF the opportunities don't present themselves (opportunities can be created). To me, if done smartly, the difference is simply a year. I'm not looking for the next Holy Grail. I'm looking/hoping choices made are for both the short and long term success of the team. If the options available require another down year, so be it. If there are options that will improve the team both short and long term, even better.
Millsap isn't coming here unless we give him the max, and that would be a dumb thing to do. If it's a 4-year contract, his contract would expire before Hield, Skal, Richardson, and Papagiannis are due for their extensions. He'd be eating up salary at age 35.
We need to save up cap space to go after FAs in 2018 and 2019. Having Millsap at 30mpy is a waste of space. He'd also take up a lot of PT from our already loaded PF/C depth. On top of this, he add more wins to our win column. I'm not going to give a 32 yearold Paul Millsap the max just to end up with another 33 wing season and end up with the 10th overall pick instead of the 1st. Kings need to stop with their half-assed rebuilding crap. It gets so tiring.
I'd be ok with Tony Snell or Lawson though. Just NO to Paul Millsap please...
We need to save up cap space to go after FAs in 2018 and 2019. Having Millsap at 30mpy is a waste of space. He'd also take up a lot of PT from our already loaded PF/C depth. On top of this, he add more wins to our win column. I'm not going to give a 32 yearold Paul Millsap the max just to end up with another 33 wing season and end up with the 10th overall pick instead of the 1st. Kings need to stop with their half-assed rebuilding crap. It gets so tiring.
I'd be ok with Tony Snell or Lawson though. Just NO to Paul Millsap please...
With the exception of a Porter max offer, this is the type of deal I want to see before we start to fill in the last 3 roster slots
I think we need a good 1st for 2019 so that we can get at least two good 1st round picks in 2018 and 2019 before all of our rookies come up in 3-4 years for the big raises
then we will need to pick which rookies get paid and we will need at least 2 good players on rookie contracts to go with the stars that show up out of our 10 rookies
I would really like to find a team like Portland that is desperate for cap relief, but has a 2019 pick maybe from another team that might end up a top 10 pick in 2019
I would be worried that a 2019 portland pick may not end up as a 1-10 pick
Keep the cap space Vlade to get a good pick BEFORE we spend any big FA $ !!!
I think we need a good 1st for 2019 so that we can get at least two good 1st round picks in 2018 and 2019 before all of our rookies come up in 3-4 years for the big raises
then we will need to pick which rookies get paid and we will need at least 2 good players on rookie contracts to go with the stars that show up out of our 10 rookies
I would really like to find a team like Portland that is desperate for cap relief, but has a 2019 pick maybe from another team that might end up a top 10 pick in 2019
I would be worried that a 2019 portland pick may not end up as a 1-10 pick
Keep the cap space Vlade to get a good pick BEFORE we spend any big FA $ !!!
The development of our players is more important than what could possibly happen in 2018. We don't have know what we have. We may already have three all-star caliber players on our team with Fox, Buddy and Skal. It is more important that we nurture this talent with the right veterans around them then plot for ways to get the 4th versus 12th pick in 2018. I agree with you the risk of the deal with Millsap is the 3rd and 4th year and declining productivity. But he's a savvy and heady player and so will likely still be effective as his athleticism declines. The risk is an overpay I think is worth it to help these young guys turn into true pros and so they experience success.
The other variable is the West is wide open. The Lakers are a joke. The Suns are terrible. The Mavs are terrible. The Clippers could implode if they lose one or both of Paul and Griffin. The Grizzlies are old. The Pelicans are two man team if Holiday walks & will be team of turmoil if history is any indication. The Jazz will take step back if they lose Hayward. The Nuggets score but play NO defense The Wolves took step forward with Butler but that's still a team of mismatched talent. The only teams I would concede as better than the Kings in the West are:
- Warriors
- Spurs
- Rockets
- Blazers
- Jazz
A team capable of finishing 6th in West (Kings?) is at least a 35 win team. And I am not that impressed with Rockets, Blazers or Jazz (if they lose Hayward). I certainly think our guys think they are capable of competing against these guys. So if this is the landscape before potential dramatic improvement this summer why should we just rollover and concede the season in name of developing young guys? We should develop our young guys simultaneously with trying to win. We need to try to win so that culture change is reflected in the win / loss column. This means spending on quality players now instead of postponing success for a day that may never come.
The other variable is the West is wide open. The Lakers are a joke. The Suns are terrible. The Mavs are terrible. The Clippers could implode if they lose one or both of Paul and Griffin. The Grizzlies are old. The Pelicans are two man team if Holiday walks & will be team of turmoil if history is any indication. The Jazz will take step back if they lose Hayward. The Nuggets score but play NO defense The Wolves took step forward with Butler but that's still a team of mismatched talent. The only teams I would concede as better than the Kings in the West are:
- Warriors
- Spurs
- Rockets
- Blazers
- Jazz
A team capable of finishing 6th in West (Kings?) is at least a 35 win team. And I am not that impressed with Rockets, Blazers or Jazz (if they lose Hayward). I certainly think our guys think they are capable of competing against these guys. So if this is the landscape before potential dramatic improvement this summer why should we just rollover and concede the season in name of developing young guys? We should develop our young guys simultaneously with trying to win. We need to try to win so that culture change is reflected in the win / loss column. This means spending on quality players now instead of postponing success for a day that may never come.
I want Ingles. Bad. He makes others better by his passing and BBIQ. Looks to be a perfect role model and team mate for this young team. I think his defense is underrated also. Pay the man 20% more than the market and get 'er done.
After that I want a vet PG that can show Fox and Mason the way. Beverly is on the top of my list. Maybe some of those cap $$$ the Kings have can be used to swing a deal for him. I don't believe in "giving" minutes to rookies and I think the Kings' coaching staff agrees with that principle. You earn your minutes.
Porter is probably a pipe dream so I'm not seriously considering him in the equation.
After that I want a vet PG that can show Fox and Mason the way. Beverly is on the top of my list. Maybe some of those cap $$$ the Kings have can be used to swing a deal for him. I don't believe in "giving" minutes to rookies and I think the Kings' coaching staff agrees with that principle. You earn your minutes.
Porter is probably a pipe dream so I'm not seriously considering him in the equation.
I don't expect the Kings to win many games next season. And as long as the young guys develop that's not a huge deal.
That said, it shouldn't be a "tank year". I want the young guys to win as many games as they can. And while I think the Kings are better off taking on a bad contract or two for young players and/or draft picks rather than spending on a guy like Millsap, I wouldn't be upset if they wisely spend on a couple more vets to help the kids figure things out.
As for the western conference, there are really the Warriors and everyone else with the Spurs and the Rockets likely the only other teams that could possibly challenge them. The Jazz are impressively defensively but they could possibly lose Hayward (as you mentioned) but also it seems like they are ready to move on from George Hill.
The Blazers looked good after getting Nurkic, but they are still terrible defensively, especially on the perimeter and I'm not sure what the ceiling is for a team led by a pair of 6'3" gunner guards that don't really make their teammates better.
The team I'm really not sure about is the Timberwolves. Butler is a great two way player but one of the biggest issues for Minnesota is a lack of outside shooting (they took and made the fewest number or 3's of all teams last season) and replaced LaVine (who shot 6.6 threes per game at 38.7%) with Butler who shot half as many threes per game and at a slightly lower percentage.
It's hard to say how things will change this summer but I'm not sure I see the Kings competing for a playoff spot regardless. I'd certainly love it if they did.
I think the Kings should try to take on a bad contract or two to return a quality young player and/or draft picks but if not I wouldn't mind seeing them signing Teodosic, Ingles and Patterson to fill the remaining roster holes. Porter would be my first choice but I don't see Washington letting him go. Utah may also match all but a ridiculous offer for Ingles too and as much as I like him, it's not worth vastly overpaying for a 29 year old role player, even if he is a great fit.
That said, it shouldn't be a "tank year". I want the young guys to win as many games as they can. And while I think the Kings are better off taking on a bad contract or two for young players and/or draft picks rather than spending on a guy like Millsap, I wouldn't be upset if they wisely spend on a couple more vets to help the kids figure things out.
As for the western conference, there are really the Warriors and everyone else with the Spurs and the Rockets likely the only other teams that could possibly challenge them. The Jazz are impressively defensively but they could possibly lose Hayward (as you mentioned) but also it seems like they are ready to move on from George Hill.
The Blazers looked good after getting Nurkic, but they are still terrible defensively, especially on the perimeter and I'm not sure what the ceiling is for a team led by a pair of 6'3" gunner guards that don't really make their teammates better.
The team I'm really not sure about is the Timberwolves. Butler is a great two way player but one of the biggest issues for Minnesota is a lack of outside shooting (they took and made the fewest number or 3's of all teams last season) and replaced LaVine (who shot 6.6 threes per game at 38.7%) with Butler who shot half as many threes per game and at a slightly lower percentage.
It's hard to say how things will change this summer but I'm not sure I see the Kings competing for a playoff spot regardless. I'd certainly love it if they did.
I think the Kings should try to take on a bad contract or two to return a quality young player and/or draft picks but if not I wouldn't mind seeing them signing Teodosic, Ingles and Patterson to fill the remaining roster holes. Porter would be my first choice but I don't see Washington letting him go. Utah may also match all but a ridiculous offer for Ingles too and as much as I like him, it's not worth vastly overpaying for a 29 year old role player, even if he is a great fit.
Signing 3 low level vets to fill out the roster would be such a bad thing for the young players development. Millsap on a 3 year deal is very good. Take pressure off the rooks. Let them compete for wins. Don't send them out there to just get minutes and get their asses kicked. Adding Millsap is going to keep us a lottery team. Look at the TWolves. Stack up youngsters for years, trade for a vet like Butler at the right time.
I mean, I don't get the idea of signing a guy like Troy Williams and then letting he and Justin Jackson handle the SF position with help from Malachi. How about sign a Troy Williams AND a legit SF and a vet PG and take pressure off our kids. Joerger and the staff just showed everyone how to work in and develop the youngsters last year. Meaningful minutes is the goal for next year.
I mean, I don't get the idea of signing a guy like Troy Williams and then letting he and Justin Jackson handle the SF position with help from Malachi. How about sign a Troy Williams AND a legit SF and a vet PG and take pressure off our kids. Joerger and the staff just showed everyone how to work in and develop the youngsters last year. Meaningful minutes is the goal for next year.