What exactly is the story with Giles' knees anyway?

#62
One player I can think of that came back from microfracture surgery was Amare Stoudemire back in the 2005-2006 season and he still managed to prolong his career until 2016. I remember watching him return even more athletic than he used to be and that goes back to what I mentioned in a thread about working with trainers to strengthen the body parts around your knees so one is less susceptible to injury. Not saying it won't happen, it can happen at any given time but the idea is the same.
Giles didn't have microfracture surgery though - he had a more Shaun Livingston like complete knee blow out followed by a second injury on the other knee. Both were caused by collisions with other players not just "he landed wrong" which indicates there may be nothing wrong with his body, just bad luck. Livingston did recover to some degree but I think it's important to note he was rushed back and it hindered his progress. It seems like most players get cleared after a year but don't fully heal until the second year. so I think there's no reason to rush things this year. He had to play at Duke if he wanted to come out his year, which obviously he did. But I think there's no harm with where we are at as a team in babying him another year. Let him earn his minutes but bring him along slowly and maybe don't play him in back to backs. I think next season he'll be competing for a starting spot.
 
#63
@John Galt

He was playing around 9-10 mins a game through the tournament. I am guessing we will sign a median PF to back Skal. Giles will play in the G-League, with minutes increasing in increments till both he and the coaching staff are comfortable.

I could see him play 12-15 minutes for the Kings by years end. No rush if the reward in the long run is even 70% of what he was projected to be.
Personally, I am not one for nurturing. Toss him out there.. If he's good enough to play 12-15 mins a night then let him. Don't store him in the G-League because you're worried about his knees. That's one way to mess them up from my pov. Keep the kid thinking about his knees and he will almost certainly injure them because he's trying NOT to injure them lol. Like when I used to race mountain bikes downhill. (yes just downhill). If you were worried about crashing or how much it would hurt if you crashed then you would most likely crash. You would ride stiff, and that's the worst thing you could do. Especially when going 50+MPH in dirt and rocks.
 
#64
Giles didn't have microfracture surgery though - he had a more Shaun Livingston like complete knee blow out followed by a second injury on the other knee. Both were caused by collisions with other players not just "he landed wrong" which indicates there may be nothing wrong with his body, just bad luck. Livingston did recover to some degree but I think it's important to note he was rushed back and it hindered his progress. It seems like most players get cleared after a year but don't fully heal until the second year. so I think there's no reason to rush things this year. He had to play at Duke if he wanted to come out his year, which obviously he did. But I think there's no harm with where we are at as a team in babying him another year. Let him earn his minutes but bring him along slowly and maybe don't play him in back to backs. I think next season he'll be competing for a starting spot.
I don't know if you realized it, but this is his second year since the surgery. He missed his senior year of high school recovering.
 
#66
Honest question from a PT view - why would you send him to the G-League instead of just slowly build up his minutes at the NBA level?

He's not going to give it 50% down there, and with the quality of play at a lower level, I would think his risk of injury may even be greater due to sloppy play and possibly harder less-professional professional fouls, if you catch my drift. Plus everything about the team facilities, coaching and training is going to be a step down. He has NBA skills, so what is the advantage of sending him down?

I get if he is 100% cleared after missing half a season sending him down for a week or two to get game-fit, but just for the purpose of bringing him along, keep him part of the main team for all the advantages that brings to both the player and the team chemistry itself.
Mostly because there's questions on whether or not he's actually a good basketball player. He was supposedly "healthy" at Duke, but nothing about his play stood out at all. If he weren't the #1 recruit in the nation, you'd think Giles is just another bench big on a college team. Giving him GLeague time will tell us a lot. If he sucks in the GLeague, then we're probably not getting a good player.
 

Tetsujin

The Game Thread Dude
#67
Mostly because there's questions on whether or not he's actually a good basketball player. He was supposedly "healthy" at Duke, but nothing about his play stood out at all. If he weren't the #1 recruit in the nation, you'd think Giles is just another bench big on a college team. Giving him GLeague time will tell us a lot. If he sucks in the GLeague, then we're probably not getting a good player.
He had a scope that forced him to miss the start of the season at Duke. So not exactly healthy.
 
#68
I think the Kings need a Veteran PF to back up Skal. I then keep Giles on the NBA roster playing very limited minutes and getting the best diet and rehab work. Let him heal fully and come back strong in 2018. These Rookies are so young and mostly not ready for the rigors of an 82 games NBA season. I especially do not send Giles to the G League. I want him around the Kings medical staff full time.
 
#69
Oden and Walton come to mind, because lots of large humans have problems with their wheels. The technology for rehabbing knees continue to improve rapidly. He has a chance to be a productive player but only time will tell.
 
#70
Mostly because there's questions on whether or not he's actually a good basketball player. He was supposedly "healthy" at Duke, but nothing about his play stood out at all. If he weren't the #1 recruit in the nation, you'd think Giles is just another bench big on a college team. Giving him GLeague time will tell us a lot. If he sucks in the GLeague, then we're probably not getting a good player.
I was asking the question from a rehab POV, specifically if there are concerns about him getting reinjured and how playing at a lower level could either mitigate or enhance that risk. I don't think he was healthy at Duke, but he a) didn't want to get reinjured and kill his NBA career and b) needed to play some minutes as an audition because all kids can't wait to get their second contract where "the real money starts".
 
#71
I don't know if you realized it, but this is his second year since the surgery. He missed his senior year of high school recovering.
Yeah I know the big injuries were in high school but he did have the scope to clean the first injury up in September. Honestly probably no big deal but you have to wonder if a little more rest won't reduce the need for more minor surgeries down the road.
 
#72
In the games I watched him play with Duke, I saw plenty of athleticism. He may not have the same athletic ability as he did in high school or he may get it back and sometimes get even more explosive. You never know with these things, it depends on the rehab, time put in, strengthening the muscles around the knees to have them with hold contact, etc. We could definitely use him this year, doesn't have to be out of the gate but if he proves he is worthy of minutes, Joerger should reward him. Skal can't play all game long.
I got to watch some more tape on him last night and I'm going to go on record and say that there is no chance he plays any sort of meaningful minutes in Sacramento until he goes to Reno and develops there. He has no identity at the moment. He can't shoot at all. Right now he shoots like Reggie Evans. Throws up air balls and clangers left and right. No post game at all. His main skill is his ability to drive past his opponents and get to the rim but at the moment there is no need to respect his jump shot so teams will just sag off of him and force him to throw up garbage....and he does throw up a lot of garbage when he's not right at the rim. When getting his shot off, he has similar moves to KG but when the ball leaves his hands it's ugly.

I see a lot more potential on defense right now. Even at Duke with all the rust in his game and knees, he has good lateral quickness on the perimeter when guarding more agile players. Also shows a willingness to go up against bigger players and even dive to the floor to go for steals and loose balls. Has a good feel for rebounding and should get even better with more strength and hopefully a little more bounce as he learns to trust his knees more. If given even minutes, he would probably wind up being the best weak side blocker on the team.

We have to remember that he basically missed 2 years of basketball so he's sort of like a 17 year old as far as on court time goes. It's going to take a lot of development to get him ready for the NBA and IMO that's not even taking his injuries into account. Skal had a similar type down year in college but at the moment he is 10x more skilled than Giles is. Giles isn't even close to Skal at the moment and we still don't even know if Skal is a legitimate starting PF in the league. Giles' high school highlights look amazing but he's using his athleticism over everything else in those clips. That athleticism has been compromised so he's going to need to develop other skills now. He has better ball handling, lateral quickness, rebounding and shot blocking (all in theory) than Skal but he has no offensive game other than rim running and put backs. I don't think he's even close to being ready for the NBA. I think he would look somewhat like Papa did in Summer League last year. The kid is young and has probably been beat down mentally by his injuries and all the what ifs. After thinking about it all, I think he's much better suited to get some run down in Reno to gain some confidence in his game and develop some of these skills we can see a glimmer of in his highlights.
 

bajaden

Hall of Famer
#73
I was asking the question from a rehab POV, specifically if there are concerns about him getting reinjured and how playing at a lower level could either mitigate or enhance that risk. I don't think he was healthy at Duke, but he a) didn't want to get reinjured and kill his NBA career and b) needed to play some minutes as an audition because all kids can't wait to get their second contract where "the real money starts".
Anyone that watched him play in highschool, and then saw him at Duke, knows he wasn't healthy yet. Or obviously didn't have his athleticism back. There's two things going on here. One is physical, and the other is mental. Some players have trouble trusting their body even though doctors have said they're good to go. You, I, every doctor in the world can tell said player that he's perfectly fine, but subconsciously, some small part of their brain is saying I don't think so. As a result, it takes a while for a player to trust his body again. Some take longer than others.

I would put him on our G-League roster where he can be closely monitored. I'd have him spend more time in the weight room building up the muscles in his legs than I would in games. At least to start the season. We don't need him to accomplish anything this year other than to get totally healthy, and regain his previous skills. And trust me folks, if he can get healthy and regain those skills, he'll be the best player on our team. Forget what you saw at Duke. That wasn't the real Giles.
 
#74
He had a scope that forced him to miss the start of the season at Duke. So not exactly healthy.
I meant after his surgery. He was supposedly "healthy" by the time he started playing at Duke again. Just like how he says he's "100% healthy now".
Anyone that watched him play in highschool, and then saw him at Duke, knows he wasn't healthy yet. Or obviously didn't have his athleticism back. There's two things going on here. One is physical, and the other is mental. Some players have trouble trusting their body even though doctors have said they're good to go. You, I, every doctor in the world can tell said player that he's perfectly fine, but subconsciously, some small part of their brain is saying I don't think so. As a result, it takes a while for a player to trust his body again. Some take longer than others.

I would put him on our G-League roster where he can be closely monitored. I'd have him spend more time in the weight room building up the muscles in his legs than I would in games. At least to start the season. We don't need him to accomplish anything this year other than to get totally healthy, and regain his previous skills. And trust me folks, if he can get healthy and regain those skills, he'll be the best player on our team. Forget what you saw at Duke. That wasn't the real Giles.
I doubt he'll be able to gain the same amount of explosion or athleticism ever again. He has the worst knees of any college prospect we've ever seen.

What are Harry Giles skillset? Just from what I recall, a lot of what we saw pre-ACL(15/16 yearold Giles) started with the words "potential to develop.." Everyone expected him to develop those skillsets over time, then define them at College. Might be suffering from recency bias, but I don't remember that Giles was ever really good or great at any specific thing. Even the guys on the Vertical Draft Show (Woj's guys+Draftexpress) were questioning on whether or not that his 1 year at Duke actually exposed him for not being as good as everyone thought he was. (Mike from DX dodged the question and gave a politician-type answer). Just to use as a comparison, Zion Williamson. I think we can all agree that Zion's hype is based on his potential of what he can become in the future, and not the player he is now. His strengths are ball handling, strength, and elite athleticism. Similarly, it would be like if Zion Williamson had a series of unfortunate injuries, but kept his #1 status until college. He shows up at Duke for 1 year and doesn't really show anything special as a NBA player. Now, we're left wondering 3 things: Is he even as good as people thought he was? Has his injuries stunted his development as the player we thought he'd become? Is his injuries holding him back from the player he actually is?

After watching Giles at Duke, I'm left with those 3 questions too. Is he a product of HS potential-hype?
 

bajaden

Hall of Famer
#75
I meant after his surgery. He was supposedly "healthy" by the time he started playing at Duke again. Just like how he says he's "100% healthy now".

I doubt he'll be able to gain the same amount of explosion or athleticism ever again. He has the worst knees of any college prospect we've ever seen.

What are Harry Giles skillset? Just from what I recall, a lot of what we saw pre-ACL(15/16 yearold Giles) started with the words "potential to develop.." Everyone expected him to develop those skillsets over time, then define them at College. Might be suffering from recency bias, but I don't remember that Giles was ever really good or great at any specific thing. Even the guys on the Vertical Draft Show (Woj's guys+Draftexpress) were questioning on whether or not that his 1 year at Duke actually exposed him for not being as good as everyone thought he was. (Mike from DX dodged the question and gave a politician-type answer). Just to use as a comparison, Zion Williamson. I think we can all agree that Zion's hype is based on his potential of what he can become in the future, and not the player he is now. His strengths are ball handling, strength, and elite athleticism. Similarly, it would be like if Zion Williamson had a series of unfortunate injuries, but kept his #1 status until college. He shows up at Duke for 1 year and doesn't really show anything special as a NBA player. Now, we're left wondering 3 things: Is he even as good as people thought he was? Has his injuries stunted his development as the player we thought he'd become? Is his injuries holding him back from the player he actually is?

After watching Giles at Duke, I'm left with those 3 questions too. Is he a product of HS potential-hype?
Obviously you never saw him play in highschool, or on the USA team. Therefore we have nothing to discuss.
 
#76
LOL 90% of Giles game in HS revolved around his athleticism and quickness. his knees are SHOT and he looked like a college backup at Duke. Can't fault people for questioning the validity of his skillsets when he showed no real skillset at a higher level of play.
 
#77
LOL 90% of Giles game in HS revolved around his athleticism and quickness. his knees are SHOT and he looked like a college backup at Duke. Can't fault people for questioning the validity of his skillsets when he showed no real skillset at a higher level of play.
Vlade liked his skill set in his work out. I think that might be his point of reference more than what he did in high school or college.

HE believes he's a naturally talented player that wasn't reflected in his college game. We'll see.
 

bajaden

Hall of Famer
#78
One final thing I'd like to say about bad knee's. The players with the worse knee's are the players who have lost all the meniscus in their knee. That's when you end up with bone on bone, like Webber. That's when the microfracture procedure is used. If the player is young enough, like Doug Christie, the procedure has been somewhat successful. When the player is older, like Chris Webber, not so much. That's not the problem with Giles. He tore the ACL in both knee's in different years while in highschool. There as been a lot of players that have recovered from such an injury that went on to successful careers. Frank Gore, one of the best running backs in the NFL for a period of time, played his entire career with out ACL's in both knee's. He apparently tore them while a child and didn't know it. His leg muscles were so well developed, that he ended up not needing them.

There are no guarantee's that Giles will regain all of his athleticism, but Dennis Smith seems to be doing just fine with a similar injury revovery. To question whether he's a good basketball player or not, and claim to be knowledgeable about players in the draft makes me question a persons credibility. I'm trying to be nice here, so I'll leave it at that.




When healthy in highschool, Giles dominated every game. He was unstoppable, and acclaimed by almost college scout as the best highschool player in the nation.
 

bajaden

Hall of Famer
#79
LOL 90% of Giles game in HS revolved around his athleticism and quickness. his knees are SHOT and he looked like a college backup at Duke. Can't fault people for questioning the validity of his skillsets when he showed no real skillset at a higher level of play.
I can't blame people for questioning his knees, which according to doctors, are not shot, but then maybe you know more than they do. But to question whether he was a skilled player or not is show they don't know what their talking about. I asked if you had seen him play in highschool, and if this is your answer, then the answer must be no. Therefore, you don't know, do you? What separated Giles from all the other great athletic players in highschool was that he was very skilled. Because you didn't see them at Duke doesn't mean he doesn't have them. Duke was using Giles very carefully and trying not to put him in situations where he might hurt himself again. Unfortunately, that didn't lend itself to showcasing what he could do.

Obviously he has some rust to shake off, but if healthy, there's no reason he shouldn't regain all of the skills he had previously. I don't have a problem with anyone questioning how he'll recover, but your going a bit overboard with his knee's are shot. These things take time.
 
#80
I can't blame people for questioning his knees, which according to doctors, are not shot, but then maybe you know more than they do. But to question whether he was a skilled player or not is show they don't know what their talking about. I asked if you had seen him play in highschool, and if this is your answer, then the answer must be no. Therefore, you don't know, do you? What separated Giles from all the other great athletic players in highschool was that he was very skilled. Because you didn't see them at Duke doesn't mean he doesn't have them. Duke was using Giles very carefully and trying not to put him in situations where he might hurt himself again. Unfortunately, that didn't lend itself to showcasing what he could do.

Obviously he has some rust to shake off, but if healthy, there's no reason he shouldn't regain all of the skills he had previously. I don't have a problem with anyone questioning how he'll recover, but your going a bit overboard with his knee's are shot. These things take time.
I hope for his sake(and ours) he does regain that form he had in high school because he was awesome. The comparisons to Chris Webber are legit.
 
#81
LOL 90% of Giles game in HS revolved around his athleticism and quickness. his knees are SHOT and he looked like a college backup at Duke. Can't fault people for questioning the validity of his skillsets when he showed no real skillset at a higher level of play.
So you have the actual medical on them? He was scoped in September of last year, probably a routine clean up for scarring on the first surgery and not a big deal. Many people older than Giles have surgeries and their knees are better than ever after the healing process is done. If he was 30+ I could see cause for concern. He's a young guy who we can afford to be protective with.
 

dude12

Hall of Famer
#82
The question was asked in another thread who has all-star aren't amongst the young guys......that would be Giles but he has to be healthy. If he can stay healthy, this kid has CWebb/KG talent.....but he has more talent than all of our young guys and its not close.......if this kid goes injury free going forward, he's a franchise talent.
 
#83
I think the sooner people start treating him like the 20th pick in the draft the better off they will be. At 20 if he becomes a rotation NBA player you take it to the bank. I think if he can become a Clint Capela type that would be great. He has the length and mobility(especially if his knees strengthen) to guard the rim and he has great hands to catch lobs and dump offs for easy baskets. People need to give the kids time, he is 19, give him two to three years of skill development and to be comfortable in his body again.
 
#85
I think the sooner people start treating him like the 20th pick in the draft the better off they will be. At 20 if he becomes a rotation NBA player you take it to the bank. I think if he can become a Clint Capela type that would be great. He has the length and mobility(especially if his knees strengthen) to guard the rim and he has great hands to catch lobs and dump offs for easy baskets. People need to give the kids time, he is 19, give him two to three years of skill development and to be comfortable in his body again.
Yeah. At that pick you'd like him to get to at least 75/80% of what he was initially billed as.. which is still a solid role player
 
#86
In high school he was driving to the rim with guard like moves. At Duke he almost never did that and when he did try, he was sloppy and turned the ball over. Now was that because he didn't quite trust his knees or was that because he wasn't driving on a bunch of kids that were smaller than him? Did Coach K not let him play like that because he wasn't good enough at it to be successful with it in college? Was it to protect his knees? Did Giles just not trust his knees yet? Is Giles just not the same when matched up against bigger defenders? We don't really know, all we can go off of is the tape. In high school he was more Garnett like. In college he was a poor mans Tristan Thompson.

Even if you take the knees out of the equation, we really don't know what we're getting. Can he still handle the ball like he did in high school? Will he ever develop a jump shot? Skal showed us way more than he ever showed in college but he also showed way more glimpses of it in college than Giles ever did. We could possibly have the same deal where this guy comes in and is a new player because he's no longer shackled by the constraints of his college program.

I see him being more like Tristan Thompson than KG or Webber because I think we would have seen way more glimpses of that in college if he was really truly able to use those skills against more physical players. Unlike Tristan, he has the possibility of developing a game a little more similar to those guys because he's shown that he has the ability to do it. I just wouldn't sit here and say that he's going to be awesome if his knees are healthy because he has a ton of development needed in his game that has nothing to do with his knees. If he can't shoot then his ball handling abilities wont be nearly as effective because he will be too easy to defend.
 
#87
When i think of "bad knees" i think of dejuan blair. I remember when the spurs drafted him saying three of the four ligaments attached are broke. He only has one holding his knees together. I thought no way he could sustain his explosive athleticism, but he maintained a high level for several years.
Oh yeah he plays for the los angeles defenders btw.
Every case is different and i feel there is a fine line between cockiness and swagger which he has crossed.

I get the low risk/high reward but esp47 is right where did the skills go? We need star level talent and i hope he does become a very skilled plyer