How is that trying to have it both ways? I will NOT be justified if Vlade takes Tatum. I will be wrong! And I will be first to say so. I don't see any reasonable circumstance in which we draft Tatum. I don't have full confidence in Vlade, but I have enough to expect he will get the #5 pick right. If Fox goes Top 4, I expect us to draft Isaac. If it plays out differently I think Vlade should be held culpable for turning a tremendous asset into a questionable defender without firepower on the other end to justify it. This would be egregious mistake when we have averaged 25th in defensive efficiency over the last decade. I think it is negligent management and offensive to fans who have been witness to so much bad basketball for so long. I don't think he should subject fans to further suffering by getting below average defender unless guy is an absolute stud on other end of the floor, and when there are more appealing options. I do not project Smith Jr or Tatum as absolute studs. I see guys who settle for low percentage shots and lack enough of dynamic skills to be selected over Fox or Isaac, one or both of whom will be there at #5.
Fox gone, Tatum or Isaac at 5?
- Thread starter kingsfan1984
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With that line of logic we would also pass on Ball, Jackson, Tatum and Fultz if they were to slide to #5??? None of them worked out for us either. And it is not as if Isaac is working out for everybody except SAC. His agent wants his client to go Top 4. It would be different if he was making stops in Orlando (#6) and Minnesota (#7) and excluding us specifically. To me this is an important distinction to make.
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I won't call for his head regardless of who he picks... The whole point of NBA gm vs the rest of the world is that these guys should be the best of the best when it comes to evaluating talent and assembling a team. We don't know if Vlade fits that mold yet but so far so good imo. This draft may very well make or break him as a GM but we have to wait and see how the players actually perform in the league first!
Here is a new workout video of DSJ. He looks pretty sharp. But one issue I see is he doesn't cover a lot of ground with his strides. He is the same length as Darren Collison with more explosiveness. I would bet Darren is faster and quicker. As far as DSJ working for us, as far as I can piece together we did not invite him to SAC nor attend workout he held for multiple teams. Despite his gifts, his defensive prowess and leadership skills are not what are looking for from that position.
You have 12000 posts and 1000 likes (12:1). I have one like per post (1:1) . I wouldn't be so presumptuous to presume that you speak for the masses. 
And let's just say the moderators are privy to various sources of information you are not and leave it at that.
Warhawk has been around since you were in diapers. Long before the board had any "likes".
Not that it matters, but there you go. I think we know the genders of most/all the moderators here and I don't aim for ambiguity on unimportant stuff like that.
Darren is definitely quicker. But that's always been D.C.'s biggest asset followed by his midrange jumper. But unlike Fox (or Smith for that matter) Collison has never been great at using his quickness to attack the basket, mostly because he's not great at change of direction/shiftiness with the ball. That and his slight frame.
Darren came out of UCLA under 170 lbs. I think he was 166. Smith is reportedly 25 to 30 lbs heavier which (along with his advanced handle) is why he can attack the rim so well. Some question if he can do it on the next level against NBA defenders but I remember the game against FSU where Smith jumped right into Jonathan Isaac, knocked him out of the area and finished through the contact.
With Smith my bigger concerns are that he HAS to learn to attack off the catch and his defense. Smith tends to catch the ball, size up his man, call for a pick etc all of which runs the clock and doesn't help the team offense. Hs needs to be able to catch-and-shoot or attack off the catch and if neither option is there to move the ball. If he can't learn to do that then I think he's going to put up numbers but not help a team win.
Defensively he HAS to be in much better position to make up for his lack of length. He has the strength to avoid getting outmuscled by bigger point guards but he has to fight through screens, close out more effectively and stop gambling with swipes at the ball.
The best defensive PG in the NBA is Chris Paul who is Smith's size or smaller so his size doesn't preclude him from being an effective defender but right now he's a long ways off.
If Fox goes top four my hope would be that the Kings take Isaac and then trade up for Smith. I'd take Ntilikina but I think Smith is a better fit as a Kings team with Hield/Isaac/Labissiere/WCS needs a penetrating PG who can open up shots.
Darren came out of UCLA under 170 lbs. I think he was 166. Smith is reportedly 25 to 30 lbs heavier which (along with his advanced handle) is why he can attack the rim so well. Some question if he can do it on the next level against NBA defenders but I remember the game against FSU where Smith jumped right into Jonathan Isaac, knocked him out of the area and finished through the contact.
With Smith my bigger concerns are that he HAS to learn to attack off the catch and his defense. Smith tends to catch the ball, size up his man, call for a pick etc all of which runs the clock and doesn't help the team offense. Hs needs to be able to catch-and-shoot or attack off the catch and if neither option is there to move the ball. If he can't learn to do that then I think he's going to put up numbers but not help a team win.
Defensively he HAS to be in much better position to make up for his lack of length. He has the strength to avoid getting outmuscled by bigger point guards but he has to fight through screens, close out more effectively and stop gambling with swipes at the ball.
The best defensive PG in the NBA is Chris Paul who is Smith's size or smaller so his size doesn't preclude him from being an effective defender but right now he's a long ways off.
If Fox goes top four my hope would be that the Kings take Isaac and then trade up for Smith. I'd take Ntilikina but I think Smith is a better fit as a Kings team with Hield/Isaac/Labissiere/WCS needs a penetrating PG who can open up shots.
Five days til the draft and I still can't make up my mind on Tatum. At this point I think there's very little question that dearron fox checks all the boxes... Position of need, good length, offensive and defensive upside, good athlete, great character and hard worker. It seems like Tatum checks most of those same boxes... Defensively he has questions but he has the length and his defensive stats at Duke were great. Offensively he has Paul Pierce upside. Character and work ethic both seem great.
I guess the two things holding me back from getting excited about him are his athleticism and his feel for the game. Athletically he seems to be solid but unspectacular. This would be less of a red flag at pretty much any other position besides sf I think. That position more than any others demands a two way player... Does Tatum have enough to compete defensively?
Feel for the game is the other issue that seems to come up sometimes. Is he going to be an iso scorer that doesn't create much offense for his teammates a la Rudy Gay? Or is he a young player who will continue to evolve and get better in this regard?
At the end of the day I really hope Fox is there at five so we don't have to answer these questions. But at this point if it goes Fultz, ball, jj, fox in whatever order I think I'd take dsj but assuming he's not an option for Vlade then I'm going Tatum over Isaac at this point.
I guess the two things holding me back from getting excited about him are his athleticism and his feel for the game. Athletically he seems to be solid but unspectacular. This would be less of a red flag at pretty much any other position besides sf I think. That position more than any others demands a two way player... Does Tatum have enough to compete defensively?
Feel for the game is the other issue that seems to come up sometimes. Is he going to be an iso scorer that doesn't create much offense for his teammates a la Rudy Gay? Or is he a young player who will continue to evolve and get better in this regard?
At the end of the day I really hope Fox is there at five so we don't have to answer these questions. But at this point if it goes Fultz, ball, jj, fox in whatever order I think I'd take dsj but assuming he's not an option for Vlade then I'm going Tatum over Isaac at this point.
Yawn. I am here to talk about Kings and the draft and prospects for turning around the franchise and making the playoffs in 2018.....not get sucked into your petty drama. You made an over the line post saying
MOST OF US DON'T GIVE A FLYING RAT"S ASS ABOUT YOU AND WHAT YOU REMEMBER ....
That's rude and inappropriate and of course I am going to counterpunch. I have dealt with bullies like you all my life!!! You think you can say something like and have me demure into a corner. That's not going to happen. I don't care about Likes either but if I am attacked unprovoked then I am going to attack back. My comments are MORE compelling than yours (1:1 v 12:1) and that is without trying to solicit favor from anyone. Anyone who knows my history around here knows I am extremely prone to challenge an opinion. But I NEVER attack the person. I only challenge the merits of the opinion. It is NEVER personal with me. I like and respect Kings fans because we are in this together. You made it personal with me.
Then you HIDE behind your moderator status and illusion of the majority on your side to bully me into submissiveness. That may work with weak-minded and low self-esteemed person. But you chose to pick on the wrong person.
MOST OF US DON'T GIVE A FLYING RAT"S ASS ABOUT YOU AND WHAT YOU REMEMBER ....
Then you HIDE behind your moderator status and illusion of the majority on your side to bully me into submissiveness. That may work with weak-minded and low self-esteemed person. But you chose to pick on the wrong person.
And let's just say the moderators are privy to various sources of information you are not and leave it at that.
Am I supposed to be impressed with this? Oooh you are a moderator. Congrats on that. Now why don't you focus on talking about Kings and draft and post why you agree or disagree with my opinion on Fox or Tatum or Smith or whomever instead of making snarky comments posting pictures of bats and inferring they are rats. It's not constructive to making this a good community.
Mod voice: Unfortunately, your posts leave a very strong impression that these things are secondary, and that you are here primarily to get into fights and to "keep score". This is an impression that you have built up over a long period of time, and this impression is only strengthened by you saying things like:
and by counting up how many times your posts have been "liked" relative to others.
A strong argument be made that your initial post indicating the intention to remember which posters disagree with you was the first "punch" to Warhawk's "counterpunch" (and not the other way around as you suggest). In fact, I myself was also quite taken aback by that particular post. I considered doing something about that post myself, but 1) I was at work and didn't really have the time to craft a thoughtful response, and 2) I felt I couldn't just ding you with a warning point because I know that you are one warning point from being banned. Suffice it to say that Warhawk was not the only moderator to have an issue with that threat.
I think you need to take a step back and take a serious look at the tone of your posts, and I think you need to be careful about that tone in the future. I admire your passion and I think you CAN be a valuable member of this community, but you need to remember that not every disagreement needs to be a fight, and that not every post is about scoring points at somebody else's expense. Please, keep it civil. You're running out of rope.
and by counting up how many times your posts have been "liked" relative to others.
A strong argument be made that your initial post indicating the intention to remember which posters disagree with you was the first "punch" to Warhawk's "counterpunch" (and not the other way around as you suggest). In fact, I myself was also quite taken aback by that particular post. I considered doing something about that post myself, but 1) I was at work and didn't really have the time to craft a thoughtful response, and 2) I felt I couldn't just ding you with a warning point because I know that you are one warning point from being banned. Suffice it to say that Warhawk was not the only moderator to have an issue with that threat.
I think you need to take a step back and take a serious look at the tone of your posts, and I think you need to be careful about that tone in the future. I admire your passion and I think you CAN be a valuable member of this community, but you need to remember that not every disagreement needs to be a fight, and that not every post is about scoring points at somebody else's expense. Please, keep it civil. You're running out of rope.
Dude, really?
First of all, NOBODY give a rat's *** about ANYONE "counting likes" or about what you threaten to "remember" and throw back in people's faces later if you feel like it, etc. That's middle school type stuff. That's not what we do here. Especially not the way you sometimes do it - like the post I originally quoted - and that's the reason I gave that little message to you. No warning points or infractions were given this time. I was hoping you'd be bright enough to catch the clue.
I am not hiding behind anything or threatening. I am not bullying. I stated facts. Moderators see stuff like deleted/edited posts, private messages (to us) and reported posts to mods regarding posters that are over the line, number of warnings and warning points issued for various infractions, etc. Believe me, everything I stated is true based on the feedback we get, etc.
Most of the posters here are not here to stir up trouble. The impression you give (based on some of the feedback we get, etc.) is that folks don't always feel the same about you. Sometimes you have great posts and are very thoughtful with responses. However, you also can make it about you, you try to put others on the defensive (like your post I am quoting), you try to keep "scores", etc. You can also drop the "persecution complex"-type responses and combative tone.
We try to keep the dialogue here at a higher level (as much as possible) and make it accessible to everyone. If you don't feel like being a part of that, well, just see the Captain's post above. If I were you, I would seriously consider adjusting your tone and approach. And that isn't a threat, that's a gentle request to follow the "don't be a jerk" rule as well as others at this site. Your warning point accumulation strongly indicates you have a hard time understanding that. And I'm only bringing it up because the Captain did first, I wasn't going to mention it on my own.
So, continue on with your (collective "your", not Blob "your") hundreds of posts about draft position, reading tea leaves on who will draft who, which players played out of position in college and hence their stats aren't reflective of the talent, which players fit which teams, what player the Kings are going to pick at #8 (oops, that changed like I suggested it might), how certain college players will be all-stars or bomb out of the league in the next 3.48612 years (before they ever get drafted, get pro-level training and playing opportunities, or show their capabilities at the pro level, etc., etc.), and above all, please forgive me if I don't wade into this morass just to make you happy (per your quoted post - and I quote: "Now why don't you focus on talking about Kings and draft and post why you agree or disagree with my opinion on Fox or Tatum or Smith or whomever").
I find posts by Bajaden, funkykingston, and select others to be particularly insightful, intelligent, well thought out, etc.. Doesn't mean I want to actively participate in the conversation, or, even worse, feel like I have to convince everyone I have the Magic 8-Ball answers. I don't. Nobody does.
Frankly, I am here to discuss the Kings, not 60+ college players that may or may not get drafted by the various teams. I get that some of you get off on hyper-analyzing the draft, so have at it. I, for one, will watch the draft and cheer on whoever the Kings draft. The rest of this isn't really my cup of tea. I have better things to occupy my time.
A final note - I very infrequently issue warnings or get on a poster's *** about much. Really - go back and dig through my 12,000+ posts (or whatever the number, I haven't checked to verify that # you threw out) and see if I am not telling the truth. And I try to use a lighter touch than some others and was trying to do the same here. Just think about that next time.
Blob, if you have any additional discussion you want to have, take it to PM's.
To everyone else, sorry to have derailed the thread at all - it was obviously not my intent. Carry on.
First of all, NOBODY give a rat's *** about ANYONE "counting likes" or about what you threaten to "remember" and throw back in people's faces later if you feel like it, etc. That's middle school type stuff. That's not what we do here. Especially not the way you sometimes do it - like the post I originally quoted - and that's the reason I gave that little message to you. No warning points or infractions were given this time. I was hoping you'd be bright enough to catch the clue.
I am not hiding behind anything or threatening. I am not bullying. I stated facts. Moderators see stuff like deleted/edited posts, private messages (to us) and reported posts to mods regarding posters that are over the line, number of warnings and warning points issued for various infractions, etc. Believe me, everything I stated is true based on the feedback we get, etc.
Most of the posters here are not here to stir up trouble. The impression you give (based on some of the feedback we get, etc.) is that folks don't always feel the same about you. Sometimes you have great posts and are very thoughtful with responses. However, you also can make it about you, you try to put others on the defensive (like your post I am quoting), you try to keep "scores", etc. You can also drop the "persecution complex"-type responses and combative tone.
We try to keep the dialogue here at a higher level (as much as possible) and make it accessible to everyone. If you don't feel like being a part of that, well, just see the Captain's post above. If I were you, I would seriously consider adjusting your tone and approach. And that isn't a threat, that's a gentle request to follow the "don't be a jerk" rule as well as others at this site. Your warning point accumulation strongly indicates you have a hard time understanding that. And I'm only bringing it up because the Captain did first, I wasn't going to mention it on my own.
So, continue on with your (collective "your", not Blob "your") hundreds of posts about draft position, reading tea leaves on who will draft who, which players played out of position in college and hence their stats aren't reflective of the talent, which players fit which teams, what player the Kings are going to pick at #8 (oops, that changed like I suggested it might), how certain college players will be all-stars or bomb out of the league in the next 3.48612 years (before they ever get drafted, get pro-level training and playing opportunities, or show their capabilities at the pro level, etc., etc.), and above all, please forgive me if I don't wade into this morass just to make you happy (per your quoted post - and I quote: "Now why don't you focus on talking about Kings and draft and post why you agree or disagree with my opinion on Fox or Tatum or Smith or whomever").
I find posts by Bajaden, funkykingston, and select others to be particularly insightful, intelligent, well thought out, etc.. Doesn't mean I want to actively participate in the conversation, or, even worse, feel like I have to convince everyone I have the Magic 8-Ball answers. I don't. Nobody does.
Frankly, I am here to discuss the Kings, not 60+ college players that may or may not get drafted by the various teams. I get that some of you get off on hyper-analyzing the draft, so have at it. I, for one, will watch the draft and cheer on whoever the Kings draft. The rest of this isn't really my cup of tea. I have better things to occupy my time.
A final note - I very infrequently issue warnings or get on a poster's *** about much. Really - go back and dig through my 12,000+ posts (or whatever the number, I haven't checked to verify that # you threw out) and see if I am not telling the truth. And I try to use a lighter touch than some others and was trying to do the same here. Just think about that next time.
Blob, if you have any additional discussion you want to have, take it to PM's.
To everyone else, sorry to have derailed the thread at all - it was obviously not my intent. Carry on.
