(Dis)honesty the truth about lies documentary

#1
not sure if I'm posting in the right forum, but have any of you seen this documentary on Netfilx: (Dis)honesty, the truth about lies?
It's a fascinating documentary and a part of it features former NBA ref Tim Doneghy discussing what happened when he got busted.
http://m.imdb.com/title/tt2630898/
If even part of what he says is true, DMC is in for a rough NBA career...unless he moves to a big market team? Anyway, I'm a bit more skeptical of the NBA after watching.
 
#5
I'm interested in hearing what those who've seen it, have to say about the doneghy part.

I thought the interviewer did an amazing job of getting the interviewees to relax and be very candid about their "lies".

When Tim talks about the NBA and and how he felt there was a directive from the league that refs should treat players differently and call games a certain way, it just seems like he's not lying. It can make this kings fan wonder if there will ever be a chance.
 
#6
I've seen it. It doesn't make me suspect any widespread collusion or conspiracy by the refs. Sayiid from the TV Show Lost has a great quote that I think applies "If you wait, a rat will always lead you to it's hole", Donahy has gone out of his way to try and sensationalize the story as much as possible but his motives are self-serving and easily debunked, if anything, to me, he's an example of the opposite of what he attempts to champion, that any rogue refs will be caught. He's like a lot of criminals, he's impressed with what he did and suffering from delusions of grandeur.

The Behavioral Economics professor from Duke, Dan Ariely from the Doc has several TED talks and I'd recommend all of them. Great documentary btw, my favorite bit is the guerilla marketing scheme on Tucker max.
 
#7
There's a human element involved with refereeing. Yes there's certainly some calls that players have earned over time. Fred Hoiberg is right, Isaiah Thomas carries the ball, a lot. Shaq's response to Hoibergs comments were perfect though, he said this is nothing new, he said Mugsy Bogues and Allen Iverson did the same thing and I agree. There are some double-standards... Are they imposed with malicious intent? I don't think so.

The Wizards-Celtics series was extremely physical one of the games where it was a slugfest then turned to the Jazz-Warriors series and immediately a bunch of cheap fouls were called on Rudy Gobert. If you choose to interpret that as favoritism it's easy to see how you could convince yourself of it. Good reffing to me adjusts to the ebbs and flows of the games, when I complain about the refs, which isn't often it's usually because of one sided-ness. To me UNC got tons of favorable calls throughout their entire tournament run this year to the championship specifically at the end of the Arkansas game, all of the fouls with De'Aaron Fox in the kentucky matchup (and the non call when he got blasted on the final play of the 1st half) and then the cheapies called on Zach Collins in the chip game. Those are amatuers tho and I think they were human element mistakes, not collusion or conspiracy, certainly weren't superstar calls Fox got treated like a nobody by those refs...

There's a quote from a great movie Pi that applies;

"When your mind becomes obsessed with anything, you will filter everything else out and find that thing everywhere." - Sol

I really think thats the phenomena we see when people complain about the refs, they have a vested interest, then they hear conspiracy and all of a sudden it's everywhere.

crap happens. I am not really opposed to players earning some superstar calls though, but it shouldn't be like with Shaq where they dont call fouls on him that are clearly fouls because he's so overpowering. To be the champ you've gotta beat the champ, I'm not saying it should be like Boxing judges, which is in-fact crooked - I don't mind that having to beat the champ thoroughly to be the champ element though, that to me is a legit way to pass the torch. Thats my 2cents anyways.
 
#8
A lot has changed with respect to the officiating in the NBA after the Donaghy situation. Much more transparency, every call gets tracked, etc. I don't think that stuff happens as much. I think the difference with somebody like DMC is with technical fouls. I think refs are more apt to pull the trigger on a T with him because, let's face it, he's a jerk and would be highly annoying to referee. A player who has a better track record would most certainly get more leeway. But as far as fouls go I don't think that matters much. He's always been among the league leaders in FT attempts and consistently takes charges and gets the calls on those defensive plays.

Even if he wasn't such a pain in the ass, he would still be an incredibly hard player to referee because he's extremely physical, creates a lot of contact, and flails his body around almost every play.
 

hrdboild

Hall of Famer
#9
I don't think anyone who watched that 2002 Lakers-Kings series while it was happening will ever forget it. 27 free throws for one team in the fourth quarter of an elimination game is pretty damn tough to mark up to random chance. Game 6 felt like no matter what the team did they were going to lose because they were playing 8 on 5. And so in that sense yeah I'm always going to wonder when calls go the wrong way if there's more to it than just bad luck. There's already a perception that certain teams around the league are afforded privelaged status. I don't think we'll ever have a situation where a top prospect tells teams that they'll only workout for Sacramento and yet that happens for the Lakers basically every time they're in the lottery. You add to that how often certain teams and players show up in league promotional material and it's easy to feel like there's a dividing line between the teams the NBA actively wants to succeed and the teams that they just don't care all that much about. It's not necessarily about market size though, its about branding. LeBron is the player most people identify with the NBA right now. He makes the league look good and they want to ensure that he looks good. But I've watched this play out in all sorts of cities for related reasons. Westbrook got all sorts of superstar calls as he got closer to passing Oscar Robertson's triple double record. Golden State could do no wrong in their 73 win season with at least a dozen illegal screens going uncalled in every game I watched them play. Dunk champion Blake Griffin was noticeably exempt when the league starting cracking down on floppers with fines and suspensions a few years ago.

It's too simple to say that the calls will always favor big market teams. If you pay attention to the storylines the league is promoting in any given season though you can predict which teams and players will be granted preferential treatment. This isn't the same thing as saying the fix is in or excusing a losing team because the refs were "out to get them". Teams that are mentally tough can tune out the bias and win anyway. Nobody gave this Golden State team anything in the beginning, they went out there and took it. The superstar calls came later. That's the lesson we can learn there... Don't copy their roster or their offense but please do copy their swagger. Do copy their "why not us?" mantra.

Because the Sacramento Kings are always going to be an afterthought to the majority of the fans which means our team's importance to the NBA as a marketing tool is minimal. That's our reality - it's a part of our team identity really. The players who play here understand -- the fans this team does have are more passionate and committed to their team than just about any fanbase in the US. The people who are putting the team together should build on that by finding players who'll force the action, play through bad calls when they happen, and feed off the energy of the crowd. We're a second tier team with a chip on our shoulder and we wear our perceived small-town quantness with pride. To win when nobody else really wants us to or thinks we can is the straw that stirs the drink of Sacramento Kings basketball and year after year I keep waiting for a group of players and coaches to rally around that goal and make it happen. That's what I'm looking for every year... a unique type of player. A mix of blue collar work-ethic, irrational confidence, mental fortitude to dig twice as hard when it feels like the odds are against them, and of course the physical ability to impose their will on the game regardless of who they're suited up against. Basically I want a team full of tough Ron Artest SOBs who nobody wants to play against. Opposing teams need to know that whatever they're doing that's working against the 28 other teams in the league isn't going to work against Sacramento. If you get to that point the officiating doesn't matter anymore.

So more or less that's what I feel about the referee situation in the NBA. Complaining about it isn't going to change anything. You're never going to completely eliminate bias because so many of these calls are subjective and occur faster than the rational mind can process them. What is and is not a foul at game speed is in the realm of the subconscious, the rationalization and justification part comes later. It's as much a part of the game as the three point line and the shot clock. People who love games understand the fundamental nature of what a game is. The rules are often arbitrary but the fun comes from finding a way to win in the context of those arbitrary rules. So what if we start off the game with 100 dollars in our pocket and someone else starts with 1000? Once you understand that the setup is as much a part of the game as anything else, you realize that the goal is to win anyway or don't play at all and this game is still winnable.
 
#10
I don't think anyone who watched that 2002 Lakers-Kings series while it was happening will ever forget it. 27 free throws for one team in the fourth quarter of an elimination game is pretty damn tough to mark up to random chance. Game 6 felt like no matter what the team did they were going to lose because they were playing 8 on 5. And so in that sense yeah I'm always going to wonder when calls go the wrong way if there's more to it than just bad luck. There's already a perception that certain teams around the league are afforded privelaged status. I don't think we'll ever have a situation where a top prospect tells teams that they'll only workout for Sacramento and yet that happens for the Lakers basically every time they're in the lottery. You add to that how often certain teams and players show up in league promotional material and it's easy to feel like there's a dividing line between the teams the NBA actively wants to succeed and the teams that they just don't care all that much about. It's not necessarily about market size though, its about branding. LeBron is the player most people identify with the NBA right now. He makes the league look good and they want to ensure that he looks good. But I've watched this play out in all sorts of cities for related reasons. Westbrook got all sorts of superstar calls as he got closer to passing Oscar Robertson's triple double record. Golden State could do no wrong in their 73 win season with at least a dozen illegal screens going uncalled in every game I watched them play. Dunk champion Blake Griffin was noticeably exempt when the league starting cracking down on floppers with fines and suspensions a few years ago.

It's too simple to say that the calls will always favor big market teams. If you pay attention to the storylines the league is promoting in any given season though you can predict which teams and players will be granted preferential treatment. This isn't the same thing as saying the fix is in or excusing a losing team because the refs were "out to get them". Teams that are mentally tough can tune out the bias and win anyway. Nobody gave this Golden State team anything in the beginning, they went out there and took it. The superstar calls came later. That's the lesson we can learn there... Don't copy their roster or their offense but please do copy their swagger. Do copy their "why not us?" mantra.

Because the Sacramento Kings are always going to be an afterthought to the majority of the fans which means our team's importance to the NBA as a marketing tool is minimal. That's our reality - it's a part of our team identity really. The players who play here understand -- the fans this team does have are more passionate and committed to their team than just about any fanbase in the US. The people who are putting the team together should build on that by finding players who'll force the action, play through bad calls when they happen, and feed off the energy of the crowd. We're a second tier team with a chip on our shoulder and we wear our perceived small-town quantness with pride. To win when nobody else really wants us to or thinks we can is the straw that stirs the drink of Sacramento Kings basketball and year after year I keep waiting for a group of players and coaches to rally around that goal and make it happen. That's what I'm looking for every year... a unique type of player. A mix of blue collar work-ethic, irrational confidence, mental fortitude to dig twice as hard when it feels like the odds are against them, and of course the physical ability to impose their will on the game regardless of who they're suited up against. Basically I want a team full of tough Ron Artest SOBs who nobody wants to play against. Opposing teams need to know that whatever they're doing that's working against the 28 other teams in the league isn't going to work against Sacramento. If you get to that point the officiating doesn't matter anymore.

So more or less that's what I feel about the referee situation in the NBA. Complaining about it isn't going to change anything. You're never going to completely eliminate bias because so many of these calls are subjective and occur faster than the rational mind can process them. What is and is not a foul at game speed is in the realm of the subconscious, the rationalization and justification part comes later. It's as much a part of the game as the three point line and the shot clock. People who love games understand the fundamental nature of what a game is. The rules are often arbitrary but the fun comes from finding a way to win in the context of those arbitrary rules. So what if we start off the game with 100 dollars in our pocket and someone else starts with 1000? Once you understand that the setup is as much a part of the game as anything else, you realize that the goal is to win anyway or don't play at all and this game is still winnable.
Kings need to hire you to give a pre game speech. Logged in just to like this post.

thingfish, good find. I'll check this doc out when I get a chance.
 
#11
I don't think anyone who watched that 2002 Lakers-Kings series while it was happening will ever forget it. 27 free throws for one team in the fourth quarter of an elimination game is pretty damn tough to mark up to random chance. Game 6 felt like no matter what the team did they were going to lose because they were playing 8 on 5. And so in that sense yeah I'm always going to wonder when calls go the wrong way if there's more to it than just bad luck. There's already a perception that certain teams around the league are afforded privelaged status. I don't think we'll ever have a situation where a top prospect tells teams that they'll only workout for Sacramento and yet that happens for the Lakers basically every time they're in the lottery. You add to that how often certain teams and players show up in league promotional material and it's easy to feel like there's a dividing line between the teams the NBA actively wants to succeed and the teams that they just don't care all that much about. It's not necessarily about market size though, its about branding. LeBron is the player most people identify with the NBA right now. He makes the league look good and they want to ensure that he looks good. But I've watched this play out in all sorts of cities for related reasons. Westbrook got all sorts of superstar calls as he got closer to passing Oscar Robertson's triple double record. Golden State could do no wrong in their 73 win season with at least a dozen illegal screens going uncalled in every game I watched them play. Dunk champion Blake Griffin was noticeably exempt when the league starting cracking down on floppers with fines and suspensions a few years ago.

It's too simple to say that the calls will always favor big market teams. If you pay attention to the storylines the league is promoting in any given season though you can predict which teams and players will be granted preferential treatment. This isn't the same thing as saying the fix is in or excusing a losing team because the refs were "out to get them". Teams that are mentally tough can tune out the bias and win anyway. Nobody gave this Golden State team anything in the beginning, they went out there and took it. The superstar calls came later. That's the lesson we can learn there... Don't copy their roster or their offense but please do copy their swagger. Do copy their "why not us?" mantra.

Because the Sacramento Kings are always going to be an afterthought to the majority of the fans which means our team's importance to the NBA as a marketing tool is minimal. That's our reality - it's a part of our team identity really. The players who play here understand -- the fans this team does have are more passionate and committed to their team than just about any fanbase in the US. The people who are putting the team together should build on that by finding players who'll force the action, play through bad calls when they happen, and feed off the energy of the crowd. We're a second tier team with a chip on our shoulder and we wear our perceived small-town quantness with pride. To win when nobody else really wants us to or thinks we can is the straw that stirs the drink of Sacramento Kings basketball and year after year I keep waiting for a group of players and coaches to rally around that goal and make it happen. That's what I'm looking for every year... a unique type of player. A mix of blue collar work-ethic, irrational confidence, mental fortitude to dig twice as hard when it feels like the odds are against them, and of course the physical ability to impose their will on the game regardless of who they're suited up against. Basically I want a team full of tough Ron Artest SOBs who nobody wants to play against. Opposing teams need to know that whatever they're doing that's working against the 28 other teams in the league isn't going to work against Sacramento. If you get to that point the officiating doesn't matter anymore.

So more or less that's what I feel about the referee situation in the NBA. Complaining about it isn't going to change anything. You're never going to completely eliminate bias because so many of these calls are subjective and occur faster than the rational mind can process them. What is and is not a foul at game speed is in the realm of the subconscious, the rationalization and justification part comes later. It's as much a part of the game as the three point line and the shot clock. People who love games understand the fundamental nature of what a game is. The rules are often arbitrary but the fun comes from finding a way to win in the context of those arbitrary rules. So what if we start off the game with 100 dollars in our pocket and someone else starts with 1000? Once you understand that the setup is as much a part of the game as anything else, you realize that the goal is to win anyway or don't play at all and this game is still winnable.
That was beautiful, man
 

hrdboild

Hall of Famer
#12
Kings need to hire you to give a pre game speech. Logged in just to like this post.

thingfish, good find. I'll check this doc out when I get a chance.
Thanks! I've got a busy schedule but if that's what it takes to win more games than we lose next season (or heck, we can start with just winning some first quarters for a change!) I'll do it, I'll make those speeches.

That was beautiful, man
When it comes from the heart, it just flows out sometimes you know? Some people don't get why we watch sports. I think it touches something fundamental about the human condition. We care whether our teams win or not for the same reason we care when our children walk for the first time or start using words to express themselves. They don't even have to be our own kids, I've got a huge smile on my face if anyone's kid is doing that. It's an acknowledgement of "I see some of myself in you and I want you to succeed to remind myself that I can succeed too". The more obstacles life props up in our way the better, we'll smash through them all. It's also a career and a lifestyle and a business and all that mundane day to day stuff. But more importantly it's a test. Who will rise to meet the challenge? It doesn't get more human than that. It's Hercules and King Arthur and Siddhartha Guatama and Luke Skywalker. When one human succeeds we all succeed together. Athletes and movie stars and rock stars are the mythological heroes of our time. And that's where the royal we comes from. We did that, we killed the dragon, it was one of us! It can be done! After all, are we not Kings? That's what the jersey says right across the front. It's destiny!

Incidentally that might not be a bad mental picture to have as our newest Kings walk across the stage and shake Adam Silver's hand next month: visualize them pulling Excalibur out of the stone. If enough of us believe, it's bound to come true. Why not put a sword in the stone right there in the lockerroom while we're at it as if to say: "which one of you will meet the challenge today?" I think it could work. But I digress...