Smith or Fox? (poll added)

If they're both available, who do you take?


  • Total voters
    44
#1
I think many Kings fans here agree the Kings ought to draft a PG this 2017 draft......the subject 2 are expected to possibly be available on many analyses. Wondering which one would be the better prospect? I liked Fox on initial impression, but Smith may be a more complete PG and better shooter - rethinking that he may be the better prospect long-term.
 
#3
Fox. You can't teach that first step.
That's what I first thought, but I'm having 2nd guesses.....Smith looks to be a better passer and shooter. However Fox looks to be the better defender.... Either one would be excellent....now the Kings need to lose out to help cement one or the other.
 
#4
In all fairness I've not seen enough of Smith. What I've seen of Fox I like his savvy and speed. I'm also a bit concerned about Smiths injury history even though its supposedly not apparent now. It would be cool if I could see them go against each other. For now I would have to go Fox.
 
#6
In all fairness I've not seen enough of Smith. What I've seen of Fox I like his savvy and speed. I'm also a bit concerned about Smiths injury history even though its supposedly not apparent now. It would be cool if I could see them go against each other. For now I would have to go Fox.
I think either would be good....now if the Pelicans would tank a bit, that would be great....would love to see the Kings get 6/8; 5/ 7 would be excellent. I would be happy with any combination PG/SF of Fox/Smith Jr and Isaac/Bridges - but we know Vlade likes Euros so it might be Nitilikina who frankly looks more like a defensive specialist and limiting. Other boards have the Kings picking Markkanen whom I wouldn't be opposed to as that size and distance shooting ability is rare and a matchup problem for opposition. The future is more uncertain now for the Kings, but maybe more exciting too. Kings cannot "afford" wins for pick latitude.
 
#9
There are times that Dennis Smith Jr looks unstoppable. There are also times where it looks like he's just given up, especially on defense.

When a guy's motor runs hot and cold I get very concerned, especially when you're talking about a top 10 pick who couldn't elevate his team. To a lesser extent I have the same concern about Fultz, but Fultz's skill level is just so high.

I love Fox. But what are the chances his shot improves significantly? He wasn't as bad in HS as he's been in college but either way, in today's NBA you can't really have a PG who doesn't stretch the defense.

Tonight's Kentucky/UCLA matchup is one I'm going to watch and tape. Fox and Ball pretty much played to a draw in the last game.
 
#10
Apparently, both guys are the same heights, so size wouldn't be a game changer because Fox can still grow into his frame.

Smith Jr for me.
DSJ is a better scorer, shooter, and slightly better passer.

Fox is the better defender. His attitude is a lot better too. Fox has all the intangibles, but I think DSJ has everything else. When you watch DSJ play, he just knows how to play the game. For all the talk of DSJ bringing poor defensive effort, he still averaged 1.9stls/game. His skill level is really intriguing. Athletic PG who can create his own shots, shoot the 3 ball, shoot the mid-range, get all the way to the rim, draw fouls, play off-ball, and facilitate the offense.

With Fox, he's another athletic PG who can create his own shots, shoot the mid-range, get all the way to the rim, draw fouls, facilitate the offense, and defend at a high level. However, he can't shoot the 3 ball nor play off-ball effectively.

It's a close race for me, but DSJ's shooting pushes him up. I really like Fox's potential though. Give him a good shooting coach, and he can be very good.
 
#11
So much of this depends on character and how much you trust the coaching staff to develop a guy. I like Fox because I really like the way the staff works with young guys and I think his ceiling seems higher. With guys like Buddy, Malachi, and maybe Bogdanovic spacing the floor he would fit really nicely and having a high level defender at the point makes everyone else look better on defense. His shot looks nice and his percentages have been coming up all year so I think it's not a huge concern. He puts a lot of pressure of defenses as well with his ability to get into the lane and dish which I would love to see with Skal or WCS or even Papagiannis in the PnR.

There a lot of things to like with Dennis Smith though. He has all the offensive skill you could want along with that crazy athleticism. Always wonder how concerned our FO is with attitude concerns. That seems to be a recent theme with them so it may scare them off.
 
#12
Just judging on game film I take Fox over Smith. Fox is way better at running an offense, is taller and is more engaged and better on defense. Yeah, right now Smith is the better shooter if youre judging by 3P% and he can jump higher, but thats it - and Fox is far from a non shooter himself. Both need to get more consistent. Also, their FT% is about the same.

And thats not even considerung additional psychological and physical/injury risk evaluations which I think will favor Fox even more.
 

bajaden

Hall of Famer
#13
Just spent the last two days, along with Uncia03, watching prerecorded games of Smith, Fox, and what film I could find of Ntilikina. I have come to the conclusion that I want no part of Smith. Bad body language at times. Disinterest on the defensive side of the ball far too often to suit me. He becomes a spectator on offense too often when the ball isn't in his hands. In short, I think he lacks self motivation. Not denying his skill set, just his consistent desire. I have no use for players that you have to light a fire under.

With that said, I'm down to either Fox or Ntilikina, and if I actually have that choice, I would take Ntilikina. If you go back and read my draft posts over the years, I think you'll find I seldom support drafting a European player, or a player that's a non USA player. Mostly because I can't see them play enough to make a proper judgement. I'm making an exception with Ntilikina. He's athletic, very skilled, has terrific size for a PG, and his skillset seems to be a perfect fit for the team.

I also watched a lot of film on Markkanen, and while I think he may eventually develop into a decent to solid player, I don't think he fits what the Kings are looking for, and I think he has a lot of development in front of him. I'm not sure he could guard anyone in the NBA right now. His court awareness and reaction time seem a step and half slow in college. He''s capable of grabbing rebounds that bounce his way, but seldom rebounds out of his area. I do think he's being used differently than I would use him, which is away from the basket more, instead of setting up in the post. He seldom puts the ball on the floor, and gets in trouble when he does. Not a particularly good passer either. I've scratched him off my list.

We also spent a lot of time watching games of Tatum and Isaac. I like both players, but if I'm projecting long term, I think I have to go with Isaac. While Isaac doesn't get nearly as many touches as Tatum, and as a result, doesn't put up as many shots, his outside shot seems effortless and he shoots a better percentage than Tatum. Despite his slight build, he's a better rebounder in traffic than Tatum, and if you watch Isaac play enough, you'll find he's very good at putting the ball on the floor. His end to end speed is average for a big, but his lateral quickness is very very good. Obviously, he retained many of the skills he had when he was a PG, before he suddenly grew 6 inches. He needs to get stronger, but I really, really like this kid. I'll be OK with Tatum, but I want Isaac.
 
#14
Just spent the last two days, along with Uncia03, watching prerecorded games of Smith, Fox, and what film I could find of Ntilikina. I have come to the conclusion that I want no part of Smith. Bad body language at times. Disinterest on the defensive side of the ball far too often to suit me. He becomes a spectator on offense too often when the ball isn't in his hands. In short, I think he lacks self motivation. Not denying his skill set, just his consistent desire. I have no use for players that you have to light a fire under.

With that said, I'm down to either Fox or Ntilikina, and if I actually have that choice, I would take Ntilikina. If you go back and read my draft posts over the years, I think you'll find I seldom support drafting a European player, or a player that's a non USA player. Mostly because I can't see them play enough to make a proper judgement. I'm making an exception with Ntilikina. He's athletic, very skilled, has terrific size for a PG, and his skillset seems to be a perfect fit for the team.

I also watched a lot of film on Markkanen, and while I think he may eventually develop into a decent to solid player, I don't think he fits what the Kings are looking for, and I think he has a lot of development in front of him. I'm not sure he could guard anyone in the NBA right now. His court awareness and reaction time seem a step and half slow in college. He''s capable of grabbing rebounds that bounce his way, but seldom rebounds out of his area. I do think he's being used differently than I would use him, which is away from the basket more, instead of setting up in the post. He seldom puts the ball on the floor, and gets in trouble when he does. Not a particularly good passer either. I've scratched him off my list.

We also spent a lot of time watching games of Tatum and Isaac. I like both players, but if I'm projecting long term, I think I have to go with Isaac. While Isaac doesn't get nearly as many touches as Tatum, and as a result, doesn't put up as many shots, his outside shot seems effortless and he shoots a better percentage than Tatum. Despite his slight build, he's a better rebounder in traffic than Tatum, and if you watch Isaac play enough, you'll find he's very good at putting the ball on the floor. His end to end speed is average for a big, but his lateral quickness is very very good. Obviously, he retained many of the skills he had when he was a PG, before he suddenly grew 6 inches. He needs to get stronger, but I really, really like this kid. I'll be OK with Tatum, but I want Isaac.
Well, either we're both right or we're both wrong.

One issue I have with Smith is that there were WAY too many possessions where he just pounded the air out of the ball, didn't pass and then jacked up a shot. A little like what I saw from Lillard in college but he doesn't shoot like Lillard. He works pick and rolls well when he's looking for his offense but not great in terms of hitting the roll or pop man. DX seems to think he's a good defender when he's engaged but even when he did give effort (which wasn't nearly often enough) he was more often bodying his man instead of playing in a good stance, sliding etc. And that's an issue because (1) he won't be able to play up on guys like that in the NBA and (2) his lack of length is going to hurt him. Like Kyrie Irving he's going to struggle to guard PGs AND you can't really switch him onto wings off picks.

He's a lot of fun to watch but I don't think he plays winning basketball. Yes, NC State didn't give him shooters or the space a player like him needs to operate but I don't think those excuse some of the red flags I've seen.

I think I like Markkanen more than you, but I also see him as a stretch 4 or 5 on the next level who doesn't really give much else. And to be clear he's an ELITE shooter on the NCAA level and maybe the best shooting big man I've ever watched in college and that will translate to the NBA where he'll get less defensive attention and more space to work. I agree that it makes little sense to put him in the post. Sure, on the NBA level if teams go small and put a 6'5" wing on him he has to be able to take that guy down low and score, but more often he should be sliding to the corners for easy threes, running the pick and pop and coming off pin downs. I think his defensive awareness and passing will come around somewhat but I don't think his actual man defense will get a lot better. He's heavy legged and just doesn't have the lateral quickness to stay with anybody. I've been wondering if he's more Ryan Anderson or more Dirk but maybe what he'll really be is a rich mans Meyers Leonard - a stretch 5 that opens up the floor for everyone else.

My hope is Isaac and either Fox or Ntilikina. Tatum wouldn't bother me. I think Tatum has more potential as a go to scorer but I love Isaacs fight on the boards, his defensive potential and his shot. And if Isaac and Tatum are gone Fox or Ntilikina and Bridges would be my preference.

Of course, if Monk shows in workouts that he can be a lead guard, that could be another valid way to go. Maybe he's Eddie House or Lou Williams but he could also be Dame or a poor man's Steph.
 
#16
This is exactly where I stand. I've watched very limited videos on these guys, but Baja basically eschewed my sentiments. I really Ntilikina. I think he could be special.
Ntilikina gets my vote. More raw than the other two, but a higher ceiling. First step is the most explosive of the three point guards and has a true pass first mentality. Ill be happy with any of the 3, but if I was drafting right now he is who I would take.
 
#17
Ntilikina gets my vote. More raw than the other two, but a higher ceiling. First step is the most explosive of the three point guards and has a true pass first mentality. Ill be happy with any of the 3, but if I was drafting right now he is who I would take.
I'm torn on Ntilikina and Fox. Both have very good defensive potential but Frank has more impressive physical tools and a better jump shot. But I like Fox's mentality and quickness.

I would disagree with Ntilikina having the best first step. He covers a LOT of ground when on the move but he actually hasn't shown much burst from a standstill and struggles to get past guys/turn the corner because of it. Part of that may be mentality (he has a team first, let the game come to him demeanor rather than an attack mindset) or just needing physical development or else athletically he may not have that quick twitch movement. I don't know at this point.

But Dennis Smith Jr has an explosive first step. And Fox is a blur who nobody would be able to keep in front of them if he had a jumper to keep them honest.

I am always for drafting the BPA but in this draft I have 11 players before there's a big drop off (it was 12 before Williams announced he was going back to Texas A&M) and of those 11 five are PGs, four are SFs (or tweener SF/PFs) one is a PF and the other is a SG who has PG size and is a bit of a tweener. So yeah, while I wouldn't object to the Kings landing two PGs or two SFs or a PF (Markkanen who is 11th on my list right now) and another position, I'd love to see them come out of the draft with a PG and a SF.

Right now I have the PGs ranked as:
Ball
Fultz
Fox
Ntilikina (these two flip flop constantly for me)
Smith Jr
Monk (if he really shows he can be a lead guard he'd move to fourth)

Right now I have the SFs ranked as
Jackson
Isaac
Tatum
Bridges

I think Fultz is the most talented player in this draft. But I think I might take Ball over him. You have to be committed to being a pace and space/transition team but I think the Kings would be good for that. And I think Fultz would best benefit by having a SG who can handle and be a playmaker somewhat so he can play off the ball at times. Temple fits that to an extent and so does Bogdanovic (if he actually comes over) but Hield and Richardson do not. Of course, maybe I just have sour grapes because I know there's a slim chance the Kings could get #2 (and thus either Ball or Jackson most likely) they can't get #1 and Fultz will almost certainly go in that slot.

Anyway, here was my Tankathon mock draft for today. I don't know that the Knicks take Monk (though he definitely makes some sense, especially if they keep running the triangle) and I'd be surprised if the Wolves took Bridges (I'd think they are most likely to trade the pick follwed by taking Markkanen or one of the PGs) but otherwise this seems somewhat plausible. And it would make me happy. Especially if the Kings got Isaac AND had their choice of Fox or Ntilikina



I like watching Lonzo Ball so I'd hate to see him go to the Lakers but given how his dad runs his mouth for attention and has said that he only wants him on the Lakers I think it'd be pretty easy to learn to hate him. I'd rather seem him elsewhere though, including on the Kings.
 

kingsboi

Hall of Famer
#18
if both happen to be on the board when the Kings select, I'd go with Smith. He is the second best prospect on my board after Fultz and I just don't like seeing the team pass up on a player with that much potential, despite his red flags. Come to think of it, the Kings can't afford to pass up on that type of talent if it so happens to drop in their lap like Cousins did.
 
#21
I want Fox I've officially changed my mind wow. And Ball is overrated he won't be a top 3 player from this draft I'm in record now. Dude makes a simple bounce pass and the announcers loose there crap while Fox is doing work gets little press.
 
#24
Great game by Fox vs. UCLA, but it doesn't change anything for me. Not discrediting Fox when I say this, but there's nothing I saw tonight that I didn't see from 10 other games. He didn't show me anything new as a prospect. Fox has made himself into more of a scoring PG in the 2nd half of UK's season. He took over the Bama game when they needed someone to step up. Fox is going to be a good player at the next level.
However, his 3pt shot is still broke. I don't know if you could even call it broken, considering he doesn't take them at all. Took 20 shots tonight, and of those 20, only 1 was a 3pter.

A lot of his success in the NBA will come down to that 3pt shot. Not sure your franchise can function in 2018 without a PG who can shoot the 3 ball.
 
#25
Just judging on game film I take Fox over Smith. Fox is way better at running an offense, is taller and is more engaged and better on defense. Yeah, right now Smith is the better shooter if youre judging by 3P% and he can jump higher, but thats it - and Fox is far from a non shooter himself. Both need to get more consistent. Also, their FT% is about the same.

And thats not even considerung additional psychological and physical/injury risk evaluations which I think will favor Fox even more.
Smith is also the better passer and seems to have better floor vision....there's not a clear cut favorite I think, and the Kings win either way. One may develop into an all-star player, while the other may just be a starter - but who knows which one. Always a gamble.
 
#26
Ntilikina gets my vote. More raw than the other two, but a higher ceiling. First step is the most explosive of the three point guards and has a true pass first mentality. Ill be happy with any of the 3, but if I was drafting right now he is who I would take.
Ntilikina appears to be the best defender of the 3, but the least impressive on offense....would prefer the other 2 first.
 

VF21

Super Moderator Emeritus
SME
#27
Smith is also the better passer and seems to have better floor vision....there's not a clear cut favorite I think, and the Kings win either way. One may develop into an all-star player, while the other may just be a starter - but who knows which one. Always a gamble.
Well, let's see. :)

I added a poll.
 

VF21

Super Moderator Emeritus
SME
#28
I want Fox I've officially changed my mind wow. And Ball is overrated he won't be a top 3 player from this draft I'm in record now. Dude makes a simple bounce pass and the announcers loose there poopoo while Fox is doing work gets little press.
Might as well order his Lakers jersey right now. His dad will guarantee it.
 
#29
Great game by Fox vs. UCLA, but it doesn't change anything for me. Not discrediting Fox when I say this, but there's nothing I saw tonight that I didn't see from 10 other games. He didn't show me anything new as a prospect. Fox has made himself into more of a scoring PG in the 2nd half of UK's season. He took over the Bama game when they needed someone to step up. Fox is going to be a good player at the next level.
However, his 3pt shot is still broke. I don't know if you could even call it broken, considering he doesn't take them at all. Took 20 shots tonight, and of those 20, only 1 was a 3pter.

A lot of his success in the NBA will come down to that 3pt shot. Not sure your franchise can function in 2018 without a PG who can shoot the 3 ball.
Yeah, I would agree that nobody surprised me tonight.

Well, Golomon's drive and dunk caught me by surprise. I didn't expect that from him.

I loved Fox going in and still do, but he allows defenses to sag off him. That said, he had a great game. He got a bit too trigger happy after a hot start but then in the 2nd half he got back into taking what the defense gave and his floater game and ability to get to the line meant a big scoring night. I'd like to see him get back to more playmaking for his teammates but leading Kentucky to a win against a tough UCLA team makes it hard to criticize him too much.

Monk seemed to shake his slump a bit. He'll likely have more space on the next level and can be a weapon.

Ball didn't have a huge statistical game but he showed why he's a top prospect. He plays fast but always under control and completed passes most PGs wouldn't attempt. His teammates wasted a few opportunities but he really sees the game well.

He also struggles to get by quick guards and was stymied all night. This was compounded by him not being great/efficient out of the pick and roll. That has to change on the next level. And given his shooting, decision making and vision I think it will.

Adebayo is still one of my least favorite prospects. He has physical gifts but stone hands and really stiff/mechanical with the ball.

Leaf had a good game. He was strong on the boards which he'll have to do regularly in the NBA to get floor time.
 
#30
The way Fox out played Ball, Fox may not be available when we pick, unless we get a top 3 pick.

I think Ball may drop a bit, I watch a lot of UCLA basketball and his shot is not very quick. He has a wind up to his long range shots, that I think may be problematic in the NBA. I can see Ball drop a bit after his performance, maybe to #4-6 area.