I may have been ... wrong

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#61
Should GMs always tell the truth while player agents lie like dawgs?

It is all poker, it is all part of the game.
This is kind of the point of contention for me. Yes, Vlade lied and it is a bad look. But if he did tell him straight up that they were looking to deal him, the agents would have gone into full sabotage mode, as we saw, and derail any chance the Kings had to get decent value back . It was handled poorly, but it's a slippery slope.
 
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Mr. S£im Citrus

Doryphore of KingsFans.com
Staff member
#62
This is kind of the point of contention for me. Yes, Vlade lied and it is a bad look. But if he did tell him straight up that they were looking to deal him, the agents would have gone into full sabotage mode, as we saw, and detail any chance the Kings had to get decent value back . It was handled poorly, but it's a slippery slope.
General managers manage to make deals all the time, without agents sabotaging them. It seems a reasonable conclusion that some degree of negotiation with the agent is involved. Anyone got an answer for why Divac didn't have that in his playbook?
 
#63
General managers manage to make deals all the time, without agents sabotaging them. It seems a reasonable conclusion that some degree of negotiation with the agent is involved. Anyone got an answer for why Divac didn't have that in his playbook?
Good question. The whole thing was just handled poorly all around by the FO. Your previous comments were spot on. He should have just said nothing. Don't talk about how you are going to extend him, don't go to his house, look him in the eye and tell him you are not trading him then repeat that over and over in the media.
 
#66
If I say is Vlade allowed to change his ****ing mind is that somehow more palatable?

I try not to make a habit of it, but I have spoke a few fibs in my time. Usually for good reasons. I try to live by "judge not, or you too will be judged."
 

bajaden

Hall of Famer
#69
Trading your star player during the all-star game is like telling your kid that you and your wife are getting divorced right before he blows out the candles at his birthday party. There's an unwritten code and Vlade just sorta violated it.

Let's not ascribe adjectives usually reserved for war heroes and cancer patients to a guy who hurriedly pushed a trade through before his Warriors fan boss could change his mind.
Actually, a lot of trades are put together during the all star break. I mean logically it makes sense. All the GM's in the league are in the same place at the same time. It's just that the trades usually are announced a few days later leading up to the trade deadline. Apparently Vlade felt that the deal he had might be in jeopardy if he waited, so he pulled the trigger. This actually breaks down into two discussions. One is whether Cousins should or should not be traded. The other is whether Vlade did a good or bad job of going through the process of trading Cousins.

I won't get into the first one because it's too much of a personality contest. But I think we can all agree that how Vlade went about accomplishing Cousins Trade could have been done much better. My problem is that we don't have all the details of what went on behind closed doors. Much has been made of Vlade lying to Cousins. Obviously if he told Cousins he wasn't going to trade him, then he lied to him. But maybe he wasn't lying to him when he said it. Maybe he mean't it at the time, and then minds changed afterwards.

Here's what I know, and most of it is second hand, but from people that I respect. There was a meeting between Cousins, Vlade, and Vivek, and others in Kings management. They discussed giving Cousins a max deal and basically told him that they had no intention of trading him. During the meeting they said one of the requirements for Cousins was to continue to improve his demeanor on court, and controlling his emotions. A few days after the meeting, the Kings beat the Warriors, and after the game Cousins got into it with a Warrior fan in the stands as he was leaving the floor, and then cursed out another Warriors fan outside the locker room and flipped him the bird. He also promptly went and got three quick technicals and got suspended for a game.

Bear in mind, all this happened after a meeting where Cousins promised to continue improving on controlling his emotions. My guess is, that this is the straw that broke the camels back. Your on the verge of signing a player to about 40 million dollars a year for five years, and you can't trade him if you desire to do so, until he finishes the first year of his new contract. That's a lot of money folks, and I know it's easy to spend other peoples money, but if it doesn't work out, the franchise is in deep trouble. It's not easy to trade a player that's making that amount of money.

I'm not going to get caught up in whether Cousins should have been traded or not. It's all subjective, and the results will play out over the next few years. To me, it's now water under the bridge, and I'm moving on from it. I'am willing to discuss the process that Vlade went through, and why he ended up caught in the mess he's in right now. I don't think Vlade and Vivek were ever on the same page when it came to Cousins. I think Vlade has wanted to trade Cousins from the get go. Not because he didn't like Cousins, but because Cousins style of play didn't fit the style of basketball Vlade wanted to bring to the Kings. And, Cousins was an asset that could bring back good value. Especially at that time.

I believe Vivek was sincere when he said he wanted to build the team around Cousins, so Vlade did his best to accommodate him. Thus the stupid trade with Philly, which Vlade thought was the only way he could accumulate enough cap space to get the players to build a win now team around Cousins. I've always felt that building a team around Cousins was a good idea. Not the only idea, but non the less, a good one. Where I had a problem was thinking you could wave your magic wand and do it overnight. That was the bad idea. The win now at any future cost to the franchise idea. But it is what it is, and all the bitching in the world isn't going to change it.

Vlade has some smart people around him, and I think if he's allowed to listen to them without Vivek meddling, he can get this franchise headed back in the right direction. Big if though. By the way, Vlade is a charming guy, but when it comes to explaining trades or signings, he needs a good spokesman to handle that. English is his second language, and at times he gets himself into trouble with lack of clarity.

Anyway, in short, I think what we had here, was the top two people in the organization wern't on the same page. Vlade wanted to trade Cousins and Vivek didn't. Suddenly because of the Warrior incident, Vivek got angry and changed his mind. Vlade got to the all star game, and desperately wanted to get a deal done before Vivek changed his mind. He previously had a deal with the Pel's that included more 1st round picks, but after they spoke to Cousins agent, who wouldn't guarantee that Cuz would resign with them, they withdrew some of the offer. At that point, Vlade was afraid of not taking an offer for fear of getting an even worse one, or of Vivek having a change of heart.

All speculation on my part, but it's based on reading a lot of articles and listening to a ton of podcasts. So take it for what it's worth. It doesn't excuse anything, but maybe gives you some insights as to the why and how it happened.
 

VF21

Super Moderator Emeritus
SME
#72
George Karl was open and honest about the possibility of trade. People did not value his honesty. Vlade may have noticed.
There's a huge difference. GK never hid his feelings about DMC. That's what got people upset. Those who supported DMC thought GK should be doing the same, insted of openly campaigning for his removal.

Vlade publicly committed to DMC, and he did so without any exceptions or caveats. When he then pulled the trigger on the deal, he contradicted his own public statements - without explanation. He lied, maybe for good reasons, but he lied. He handled the whole thing so poorly it may always be looked upon as the worst personnel mistake in the history of the NBA.
 
#73
So should every GM always tell the truth? I can't put my finger on exact quotes but I'm thinking other GM's may have stretched the truth on occasion?

And beyond the discussion of truth, can we allow that a GM can have a change of heart?
Usually, GMs will say something along the lines of "_____ is not being shopped but of course we have to listen to all trades proposals". That is worlds different from going to the player's house to hang out and telling him about his plans of bringing in such and such to help and that the player will be offered the max deal. Who does that unless they are 100% sure?
 

gunks

Hall of Famer
#74
Maybe it wasn't Vlade who changed his mind, but Vivek?

There was a lot of chatter about how Vivek kept going back and forth on wanting to sign Cuz to that fat extension.

Don't hate the puppet, hate the puppet master. Vlade is only here because the goblin knows we all love him (at least we used to).

Vivek is the lil flip flopper in this scenario. Vlade is just the messenger.

We're going to keep having crap like this happen, over and over again, for as long as we're cursed with that smug little goblin as majority owner.
 

VF21

Super Moderator Emeritus
SME
#76
Maybe it wasn't Vlade so changed his mind, but Vivek?

There was a lot of chatter about how Vivek kept going back and forth on wanting to sign Cuz to that fat extension.

Don't hate the puppet, hate the puppet master. Vlade is only here because the goblin knows we all love him (at least we used to).

Vivek is the lil flip flopper in this scenario. Vlade is just the messenger.
There's a pretty open rumor floating around that there is, in fact, a puppet master. The name I've heard mentioned would really surprise a lot of people. I don't know the truth, of course, but if I were going to spread the rumor I might be tempted to point out the pronoun to use is "she" and not "he."
 
#77
There's a huge difference. GK never hid his feelings about DMC. That's what got people upset. Those who supported DMC thought GK should be doing the same, insted of openly campaigning for his removal.

Vlade publicly committed to DMC, and he did so without any exceptions or caveats. When he then pulled the trigger on the deal, he contradicted his own public statements - without explanation. He lied, maybe for good reasons, but he lied. He handled the whole thing so poorly it may always be looked upon as the worst personnel mistake in the history of the NBA.

Exactly, you don't give full support publicly and then say "character matters" as the excuse as if you didn't know Cousins' character all along.
 
#79
Actually, a lot of trades are put together during the all star break. I mean logically it makes sense. All the GM's in the league are in the same place at the same time. It's just that the trades usually are announced a few days later leading up to the trade deadline. Apparently Vlade felt that the deal he had might be in jeopardy if he waited, so he pulled the trigger. This actually breaks down into two discussions. One is whether Cousins should or should not be traded. The other is whether Vlade did a good or bad job of going through the process of trading Cousins.

I won't get into the first one because it's too much of a personality contest. But I think we can all agree that how Vlade went about accomplishing Cousins Trade could have been done much better. My problem is that we don't have all the details of what went on behind closed doors. Much has been made of Vlade lying to Cousins. Obviously if he told Cousins he wasn't going to trade him, then he lied to him. But maybe he wasn't lying to him when he said it. Maybe he mean't it at the time, and then minds changed afterwards.

Here's what I know, and most of it is second hand, but from people that I respect. There was a meeting between Cousins, Vlade, and Vivek, and others in Kings management. They discussed giving Cousins a max deal and basically told him that they had no intention of trading him. During the meeting they said one of the requirements for Cousins was to continue to improve his demeanor on court, and controlling his emotions. A few days after the meeting, the Kings beat the Warriors, and after the game Cousins got into it with a Warrior fan in the stands as he was leaving the floor, and then cursed out another Warriors fan outside the locker room and flipped him the bird. He also promptly went and got three quick technicals and got suspended for a game.

Bear in mind, all this happened after a meeting where Cousins promised to continue improving on controlling his emotions. My guess is, that this is the straw that broke the camels back. Your on the verge of signing a player to about 40 million dollars a year for five years, and you can't trade him if you desire to do so, until he finishes the first year of his new contract. That's a lot of money folks, and I know it's easy to spend other peoples money, but if it doesn't work out, the franchise is in deep trouble. It's not easy to trade a player that's making that amount of money.

I'm not going to get caught up in whether Cousins should have been traded or not. It's all subjective, and the results will play out over the next few years. To me, it's now water under the bridge, and I'm moving on from it. I'am willing to discuss the process that Vlade went through, and why he ended up caught in the mess he's in right now. I don't think Vlade and Vivek were ever on the same page when it came to Cousins. I think Vlade has wanted to trade Cousins from the get go. Not because he didn't like Cousins, but because Cousins style of play didn't fit the style of basketball Vlade wanted to bring to the Kings. And, Cousins was an asset that could bring back good value. Especially at that time.

I believe Vivek was sincere when he said he wanted to build the team around Cousins, so Vlade did his best to accommodate him. Thus the stupid trade with Philly, which Vlade thought was the only way he could accumulate enough cap space to get the players to build a win now team around Cousins. I've always felt that building a team around Cousins was a good idea. Not the only idea, but non the less, a good one. Where I had a problem was thinking you could wave your magic wand and do it overnight. That was the bad idea. The win now at any future cost to the franchise idea. But it is what it is, and all the bitching in the world isn't going to change it.

Vlade has some smart people around him, and I think if he's allowed to listen to them without Vivek meddling, he can get this franchise headed back in the right direction. Big if though. By the way, Vlade is a charming guy, but when it comes to explaining trades or signings, he needs a good spokesman to handle that. English is his second language, and at times he gets himself into trouble with lack of clarity.

Anyway, in short, I think what we had here, was the top two people in the organization wern't on the same page. Vlade wanted to trade Cousins and Vivek didn't. Suddenly because of the Warrior incident, Vivek got angry and changed his mind. Vlade got to the all star game, and desperately wanted to get a deal done before Vivek changed his mind. He previously had a deal with the Pel's that included more 1st round picks, but after they spoke to Cousins agent, who wouldn't guarantee that Cuz would resign with them, they withdrew some of the offer. At that point, Vlade was afraid of not taking an offer for fear of getting an even worse one, or of Vivek having a change of heart.

All speculation on my part, but it's based on reading a lot of articles and listening to a ton of podcasts. So take it for what it's worth. It doesn't excuse anything, but maybe gives you some insights as to the why and how it happened.

The Warriors incident theory has been floated around, but it doesn't explain what Cousins said... "I got a text from the owner right before I went to All-Star. He was asking me about a player, how I felt about him and making a move. The owner! "

It seems Vivek was still leading Cousins on in thinking that they were building the team around him up until Thurs/Fri. Who does something like that if you are actually in talks with other teams? It's seriously a big disaster in the way it was done.
 
#80
There's a pretty open rumor floating around that there is, in fact, a puppet master. The name I've heard mentioned would really surprise a lot of people. I don't know the truth, of course, but if I were going to spread the rumor I might be tempted to point out the pronoun to use is "she" and not "he."
Whoa. My mind is racing to fill in the plot holes. Vivek's daughter? I know she's a HUGE Warriors' fan, and I could see her get upset about Cousins antics towards her fellow fans.
 
#81
There's a huge difference. GK never hid his feelings about DMC. That's what got people upset. Those who supported DMC thought GK should be doing the same, insted of openly campaigning for his removal.

Vlade publicly committed to DMC, and he did so without any exceptions or caveats. When he then pulled the trigger on the deal, he contradicted his own public statements - without explanation. He lied, maybe for good reasons, but he lied. He handled the whole thing so poorly it may always be looked upon as the worst personnel mistake in the history of the NBA.
There is little difference IMO:

GK was honest and open about trades and his DMC concerns and people lost their minds. It was destructive to the team and the season. GK even admitted after he was fired that he was dumb to say it and wish that he hadn't.

The exact same thing would have happened with Vlade. When asked directly by the media if he would be willing to trade DMC he had one of 3 options:

1) Say "yes I am" = people freak, you lose DMC trust
2) Say "I plead the 5th" = people assume you mean "yes" and freak out; you lose DMC trust
3) Say "no way" = people stay relatively calm and you keep DMC trust while he is still ha King

I am not mad at Vlade and I do not see him as a coward. Far from it in fact.
 

VF21

Super Moderator Emeritus
SME
#83
There is little difference IMO:

GK was honest and open about trades and his DMC concerns and people lost their minds. It was destructive to the team and the season. GK even admitted after he was fired that he was dumb to say it and wish that he hadn't.

The exact same thing would have happened with Vlade. When asked directly by the media if he would be willing to trade DMC he had one of 3 options:

1) Say "yes I am" = people freak, you lose DMC trust
2) Say "I plead the 5th" = people assume you mean "yes" and freak out; you lose DMC trust
3) Say "no way" = people stay relatively calm and you keep DMC trust while he is still ha King

I am not mad at Vlade and I do not see him as a coward. Far from it in fact.
You're certainly entitled to your opinion, although I do not think I called him a coward. (I may have as I was really angry, but I think all along I've been most vehemwent about his integrity or lack thereof.) Unfortunately, there are a LOT of people throughout the league who think the whole thing - from the public endorsement through the embarrassing way the trade was handled - is a black eye for Vlade and the Kings. And I am in total agreement.

You know how Geoff Petrie used to handle direct questions like that? He said nothing or he said "Player X will be a King until he isn't." He certainly didn't go to a player's house, meet with his agent and who knows who else, assure him he was going to be a King and talk about the upcoming contract extension AND THEN let someone else do the dirty work when he traded him.

In your #3 above, you lie to someone so you don't have to face the truth? That, my friend, is the true definition of a coward. But again, we can agree to disagree. I've honored Vlade Divac since 1999 when I chose to be Vladefan21. In my mind, he has now caused me to change my view...and that breaks my heart.
 
#84
The Warriors incident theory has been floated around, but it doesn't explain what Cousins said... "I got a text from the owner right before I went to All-Star. He was asking me about a player, how I felt about him and making a move. The owner! "

It seems Vivek was still leading Cousins on in thinking that they were building the team around him up until Thurs/Fri. Who does something like that if you are actually in talks with other teams? It's seriously a big disaster in the way it was done.
If true, so much for not meddling.
 
#85
K, making up stories that will justify this or that, all might be true or not.... guess it is fun.

Vlade's value to the team was not his GM savvy, it was primarily his integrity and personal relationship building that he displayed as a player and the sports ambassador in Serbia.
From year and a half ago he was stating that Cuz is off limits and did not stop doing that until the end.
There is one person in the story that showed integrity and was consistent toward the Kings, and that is Cuz.
We can talk word games all day long who said what and how, but if Cuz thinks that he was lied to by Divac... book is closed in my mind.

Without integrity, please offer what else Divac is bringing to the table.

Before somebody points out drafting based on the yesterday's game, please support that view with posts you did before yesterday.

Divac can still be useful if Kings develop successfully as a good talent evaluator and developer, but the bridge building Divac that was hired is gone (for good or for bad).
 

VF21

Super Moderator Emeritus
SME
#86
Yo


You may have been wrong? No @#$% sherlock. Go ahead delete my post. Cousins has been bringing this team down for 6 and a half years and it is finally over. Man I can't believe how long it took. What spell did Cousins have cast around here?
LOL. Why would I delete your post? If I deleted the post every time somebody took a cheap shot at me, there would probably be a few hundred less posts on the board.
 

Mr. S£im Citrus

Doryphore of KingsFans.com
Staff member
#87
There is little difference IMO:

GK was honest and open about trades and his DMC concerns and people lost their minds. It was destructive to the team and the season. GK even admitted after he was fired that he was dumb to say it and wish that he hadn't.

The exact same thing would have happened with Vlade. When asked directly by the media if he would be willing to trade DMC he had one of 3 options:

1) Say "yes I am" = people freak, you lose DMC trust
2) Say "I plead the 5th" = people assume you mean "yes" and freak out; you lose DMC trust
3) Say "no way" = people stay relatively calm and you keep DMC trust while he is still ha King

I am not mad at Vlade and I do not see him as a coward. Far from it in fact.
....

Reads like protagonist-centered morality, to me... where you, of course, perceive the Kings (and Divac, by extension) to be the protagonists.
 
#89
George Karl was open and honest about the possibility of trade. People did not value his honesty. Vlade may have noticed.
So dishonesty? Vlade lied to Cousins, the media and, worst of all, the fans. You don't need to reach out to Marc Stein to say you're not trading Cousins if you secretly plan to do so anyways. There's nothing to gain there but distrust. Vlade reached out himself to send that message. He retold that message a week before trading him.

The truth is that the FO never truly comitted to building around Cousins. This is as close to a Cousins-based team as we've seen. If the plan was to be a Karl-ish team the whole time then I wish they'd been honest about that from the start, so I could have wasted less of my own time following the team. If I wanted the Warriors, I'd following the Warriors.
 
#90
No way will this keep up.

This was a dog and pony show - Denver barely tried.
They repeatedly quick-shot bad 3's, barely tried on defense, and if the refs allowed the Kings to play handsy defense like this when Demarcus was here, they would have been a top 4 seed in the West.

Did anyone notice the refs, the clock-keeper, and Michael Malone all allowed the ball to be resting on the ground in the backcourt in front of Lawson, with the game clock running down, yet the shot clock was staying at 24, and noone said anything?!
I've never witnessed that in all my years of watching the NBA -
this was a gift game from the league to the Kings, because the Kings org probably whined to the league, saying their bottom line was in danger, blah blah.

I know we all see what we want to see, but it's games like this that reveal the inner-workings of the NBA to me - showing how much the league can dictate who wins a game, IMO.
I do not even know if you're serious. If you are wow, just wow
 
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