Who do Kings pay top $$ to as shooting guard?

#32
I disagree with the whole premise of this thread.
Last year we needed to pick up a star/semi-star shooting guard. We didn't manage that. I'll stop short of saying Afflalo has been a bust, but I don't think anyone believes today that he has been a good pick up for the Kings. But we did find a very good player in Temple. We picked him up as a utility player (3 positions). But it turns out he can be a solid shooting guard until we have someone better. Next year Malachi and Bogdan will be knocking on that door. So other than the center position, about the last position we should be giving up big cap space for is shooting guard.
 
#34
I disagree with the whole premise of this thread.
Last year we needed to pick up a star/semi-star shooting guard. We didn't manage that. I'll stop short of saying Afflalo has been a bust, but I don't think anyone believes today that he has been a good pick up for the Kings. But we did find a very good player in Temple. We picked him up as a utility player (3 positions). But it turns out he can be a solid shooting guard until we have someone better. Next year Malachi and Bogdan will be knocking on that door. So other than the center position, about the last position we should be giving up big cap space for is shooting guard.
From wikipedia, "a shooting guards main objective is to score points". While Temple is a serviceable backup, he is a stop-gap. Why is Malachi not getting playing time now if he's supposed to be knocking at the door> The Kings need an outside scorer, and have not had a great shooting guard since Evans. I'd agree they also need a Small Forward with the injury to Gay.
 
#35
From wikipedia, "a shooting guards main objective is to score points". While Temple is a serviceable backup, he is a stop-gap. Why is Malachi not getting playing time now if he's supposed to be knocking at the door> The Kings need an outside scorer, and have not had a great shooting guard since Evans. I'd agree they also need a Small Forward with the injury to Gay.
Well if wikipedia said it....
 
#36
We need a game changing PG.
The Kings really really need their draft pick this year. It might be the only place we can find a young game-changing PG. If the Kings finish bottom 5, while Philly finishes somewhere around 13, that really screws our chance to get an elite PG. The best thing we can hope for right now is for both the Kings and Philly to keep sucking. The only available above-average PGs in free agency are: Holiday, Teague, Rose, and Hill. Holiday has been extremely injury prone. All signs point to Jeff Teague staying in his hometown of Indianapolis. Rose is looking for a max deal.... I think this one should be an easy pass for the Kings. Hill will be 31, so he only has maybe 2 years left before he falls into a deep decline.
FA just doesn't seem like an ideal option for us. I think we'd have a real shot at any of those guys, but we might need to use max money to even make them consider on signing here. We paid over-the market price on Afflalo, Temple, and Tolliver. Would imagine we would need to spend a lot more on non-bench players.

If we do try to trade for a good PG, the only real asset we'd be able to interest teams in is our 2017 1st round pick.
So again, everything falls back to the Sixers, and our lottery pick.

I just feel like the Kings are better off in drafting a young PG with their hopefully, presumed, top 10 pick. Kings are in a sucky spot right now. But we're clearly missing a starting PG more than any other position on this team. Almost every team in the NBA already has one. We're one of the only team a lot further behind.
 
#37
Not saying it is ideal, but if we cant get a PG in this draft there is always the X-factor of Milos Teodosic.


“2016 was my best year” Teodosic told Mozzartsport (he won EuroLeague, VTB League and a silver medal at Olympics). “I will go to the NBA for sure, but I still don’t know when, in which club and on what terms. We’ll see. CSKA Moscow certainly has an advantage in the negotiations of a new contract “ -3 days ago

http://www.sportando.com/en/europe/...nba-for-sure-but-i-still-don-t-know-when.html

Again, not saying its the perfect solution, but another possibility.
 

dude12

Hall of Famer
#38
Not saying it is ideal, but if we cant get a PG in this draft there is always the X-factor of Milos Teodosic.


“2016 was my best year” Teodosic told Mozzartsport (he won EuroLeague, VTB League and a silver medal at Olympics). “I will go to the NBA for sure, but I still don’t know when, in which club and on what terms. We’ll see. CSKA Moscow certainly has an advantage in the negotiations of a new contract “ -3 days ago

http://www.sportando.com/en/europe/...nba-for-sure-but-i-still-don-t-know-when.html

Again, not saying its the perfect solution, but another possibility.
I wasn't crazy about this when it was talked about months ago.....but now I'd like it.....can't go into next season with DC as our PG.
 
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Bricklayer

Don't Make Me Use The Bat
#39
Not saying it is ideal, but if we cant get a PG in this draft there is always the X-factor of Milos Teodosic.


“2016 was my best year” Teodosic told Mozzartsport (he won EuroLeague, VTB League and a silver medal at Olympics). “I will go to the NBA for sure, but I still don’t know when, in which club and on what terms. We’ll see. CSKA Moscow certainly has an advantage in the negotiations of a new contract “ -3 days ago

http://www.sportando.com/en/europe/...nba-for-sure-but-i-still-don-t-know-when.html

Again, not saying its the perfect solution, but another possibility.

I think Nick Calathes might be the play -- we already had interest this past summer, and Joerger already knows and likes him. Also has size and plays defense.

The thing is, if we were really to attempt next season with a guard line of Malachi Richardson, Bogdan Bogdanovic, Garrett Temple, Nick Calathes and Ty Lawson...I mean you can squint at that and see how it could really work out. But you have to also be realistic enough to know it could be a lot more questions than answers, and possibly another lost season. If Malachi, Bogdan and Garrett are or should be locks, you really need to somehow get a no questions stud to anchor things.
 
#41
I think Nick Calathes might be the play -- we already had interest this past summer, and Joerger already knows and likes him. Also has size and plays defense.

The thing is, if we were really to attempt next season with a guard line of Malachi Richardson, Bogdan Bogdanovic, Garrett Temple, Nick Calathes and Ty Lawson...I mean you can squint at that and see how it could really work out. But you have to also be realistic enough to know it could be a lot more questions than answers, and possibly another lost season. If Malachi, Bogdan and Garrett are or should be locks, you really need to somehow get a no questions stud to anchor things.
Between Gay's injury and the draft debacle brewing, next season is looking bleak - a losing season is likely again. I like the idea of resigning Lawson as a value PG. Collison may also be worth resigning but judiciously at a good value to the cap.
 
#44
He got a 20-game suspension for testing positive for tamoxifen, which is not a PED itself but is banned because it can be used to mask HGH. It's also commonly found in anti-balding medications.



You make the call on what he was taking it for.
I didn't know who Calathes was until I saw his picture - thx. Was not impressed of what I remember of him. Would rather have Collison return than the team go for Calathes. Heck Lawson even....
 
#45
It'g going to be a really interesting offseason for us. For now the position that is rock solid for us is C. With Cousins and Koufos there to share the minutes, and kids to pick up the rest of the minutes that rotation is set.

With Cousins, you have an all-star starter at the position.

With Rudy out either through injury or contract the SF along with PF positions have gaping holes that need filling. One of the backcourt positions also needs a major upgrade. Given that we seem to have invested some assets into that with Temple, Richardson and Bogdanovic, then PG seems to be the more obvious position to upgrade.

In short, 3 out of the 5 starting positions need a major upgrade between now and the start of next season or until the kids come along.
 

kingsboi

Hall of Famer
#46
This team is going to bottom out next year...fortunately they control that draft pick because they will be in play for the number 1 overall.
This is the first time that I'm holding out high hope that the Kings don't win the number one overall pick, or matter fact, a top 3 pick, unless of course the Sixers win the lottery or receive the 2nd pick themselves with the Kings right behind.
 
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gunks

Hall of Famer
#47
This is the first time that I'm holding out high hope that the Kings don't win the number one overall pick, or matter fact, a top 3 pick, unless of course the Sixers win the lottery or receiver the 2nd pick themselves with the Kings right behind.
You're a Kings fan, so you should know better.

Of course we're winning the lottery this year.
 
#49
The new CBA has me wondering who the Kings are going to pay top dollar for next year as a shooting guard. Dwayne Wade is over-the-hill but maybe a short term give-it-a-shot idea. I'm not sure he's worth a huge salary at this late in his career though. I have no idea who the best guards are Collegiate-wise, but wonder if the Kings pick will be high enough if swapping.

They're gonna have to pony up for someone, the same as any NBA team. I don't know how the Kings Organization will keep in the black - the team is just not competitive enough thanks in large part to year-after-year of poor or merely average Free-Agency and drafting
I don't see a player like Dwayne Wade considering Sacramento. If we go after a veteran player in free agency, or via a trade, it will most likely be in the Garrett Temple or Arron Afflalo bracket. That is not necessarily a bad thing because Joerger does rely heavily on veteran players and having another option in the rotation could be good for him, but I wouldn't bet on any addition being a big name, nor would I bet on a young upside player coming in and having a big role (if we retain our first round pick).

Draft wise, if we retain our first round draft pick - which would need to fall inside the top ten - then I suspect we would most likely be looking at a point guard. This year's draft class seems pretty deep at point guard and a young upside point guard might be a good addition, but again it would be difficult to pin point exactly how big a role a young upside point guard would have on a Dave Joerger team. It could be the case we draft someone and they sit second or third on the depth chart, so potentially it would not surprise me to see us try and trade that pick away for a veteran.

SG is the least of my concerns right now. We'll have 4 SGs under contract next season unless we buy out Afflalo and we just spent 2 first round picks on Malachi and Bogdan so it doesn't make sense to block them with another long-term contract. We need a PG, SF, and PF and we can afford one of them so we'll see how Vlade manages that. I don't care to make suggestions at this point. Nothing I want the team to do ever happens anyway.
The thing to bear in mind is that Dave Joerger is not really known for developing young players. In Memphis he tended to place his trust in veteran players rather than young, developing players. The same is happening here in Sacramento...

Our young upside players like Ben McLemore (15 MPG), Willie Cauley-Stein (11 MPG), Skal Labissiere (6.6 MPG), Malachi Richardson (5.9 MPG) and Georgios Papagiannis (4.5 MPG) are all at the bottom of the usage chart for the current season.

Compare that with the veterans that have some starts and/or are used in the rotation: 31 year old Anthony Tolliver (21.7 MPG), 31 year old Arron Afflalo (23.8 MPG), 36 year old Matt Barnes (24.6 MPG), 29 year old Ty Lawson (25 MPG), 30 year old Garrett Temple (26 MPG).


Now I appreciate that we are trying to chase a play off spot this season and not another top ten draft pick. So that means Joerger will use players he trusts in his system, but that in turn means that our young, upside players are going to struggle for minutes because they get lost in the rotation. Take WCS for example, his minutes have almost been cut in half from his rookie season because Joerger is using pairings of Cousins-Koufos, Cousins-Tolliver, Cousins-Barnes (etc) and not using WCS as much in the rotation. This is because Joerger relies heavily on those veteran players to keep games close and to close games out. When he looks to his bench, it is often to bring on a veteran player rather than a young, upside player. With that in mind, the presence of Malachi Richardson and (potentially) Bogdan Bogdanovic will most likely not prevent another veteran shooting guard joining the team next season.

You are right that it doesn't make sense to add another shooting guard and block minutes for Malachi and (potentially) Bogdan. However, we don't really have a coach that invests on the court minutes for player development, he uses veterans. Don't get me wrong, I can see why we have gone for Joerger and are buying into his mentality and approach, but the issue with that is young upside players will most likely take a backseat unless they prove themselves worthy of an increase in minutes, which is hard to achieve when the veterans take up much of the available minutes and roster spots.
 
#50
I don't see a player like Dwayne Wade considering Sacramento. If we go after a veteran player in free agency, or via a trade, it will most likely be in the Garrett Temple or Arron Afflalo bracket. That is not necessarily a bad thing because Joerger does rely heavily on veteran players and having another option in the rotation could be good for him, but I wouldn't bet on any addition being a big name, nor would I bet on a young upside player coming in and having a big role (if we retain our first round pick).

Draft wise, if we retain our first round draft pick - which would need to fall inside the top ten - then I suspect we would most likely be looking at a point guard. This year's draft class seems pretty deep at point guard and a young upside point guard might be a good addition, but again it would be difficult to pin point exactly how big a role a young upside point guard would have on a Dave Joerger team. It could be the case we draft someone and they sit second or third on the depth chart, so potentially it would not surprise me to see us try and trade that pick away for a veteran.



The thing to bear in mind is that Dave Joerger is not really known for developing young players. In Memphis he tended to place his trust in veteran players rather than young, developing players. The same is happening here in Sacramento...

Our young upside players like Ben McLemore (15 MPG), Willie Cauley-Stein (11 MPG), Skal Labissiere (6.6 MPG), Malachi Richardson (5.9 MPG) and Georgios Papagiannis (4.5 MPG) are all at the bottom of the usage chart for the current season.

Compare that with the veterans that have some starts and/or are used in the rotation: 31 year old Anthony Tolliver (21.7 MPG), 31 year old Arron Afflalo (23.8 MPG), 36 year old Matt Barnes (24.6 MPG), 29 year old Ty Lawson (25 MPG), 30 year old Garrett Temple (26 MPG).


Now I appreciate that we are trying to chase a play off spot this season and not another top ten draft pick. So that means Joerger will use players he trusts in his system, but that in turn means that our young, upside players are going to struggle for minutes because they get lost in the rotation. Take WCS for example, his minutes have almost been cut in half from his rookie season because Joerger is using pairings of Cousins-Koufos, Cousins-Tolliver, Cousins-Barnes (etc) and not using WCS as much in the rotation. This is because Joerger relies heavily on those veteran players to keep games close and to close games out. When he looks to his bench, it is often to bring on a veteran player rather than a young, upside player. With that in mind, the presence of Malachi Richardson and (potentially) Bogdan Bogdanovic will most likely not prevent another veteran shooting guard joining the team next season.

You are right that it doesn't make sense to add another shooting guard and block minutes for Malachi and (potentially) Bogdan. However, we don't really have a coach that invests on the court minutes for player development, he uses veterans. Don't get me wrong, I can see why we have gone for Joerger and are buying into his mentality and approach, but the issue with that is young upside players will most likely take a backseat unless they prove themselves worthy of an increase in minutes, which is hard to achieve when the veterans take up much of the available minutes and roster spots.
I'm still not convinced, that the coach is completely free in his decisions when it comes to rotations. After all Vlade is Joergers superior and while Joerger needs to coach the team, Vlade is responsible for the long term approach. If Vlade tells Joerger, that he has to find minutes for our younglings in order to develop them, I doubt Joerger would refuse to do so.
I also think the criticism, that Joerger didn't develop young talent in Memphis is a bit unfair. After all Joerger coached the current Grizzlies core in their prime. He inherited a 56-26 team from Hollins, coaching 32 year old ZBo, 29 year old Gasol, 26 year old Conley, 28 year old Lee and 32 year old Allen in 2013/14. The most promising young players during his Grizzlies tenure were Ed Davis, who basically was playing the same position as his two stars and was battling with Koufos for the primary back up role and Quincy Pondexter, who was injured for most of the time. Other than that? Jamaal Franklin is out of the league. Jarnell Stokes is warming the deep bench in Denver.
Joerger missed on James Ennis. And he didn't bench Zbo for Green, although he played Green in crucial minutes and brought him along nicely. That's pretty much it.
The Grizzlies were already a veteran team, when Joerger took over. The young talent he had during his years in Memphis wasn't that great or played a position already manned by a veteran star. The goal set by the FO and ownership was to win and make the Playoffs. The identity of the team was "grit and grind" around Zbo and Gasol. Joerger altered their playstyle a bit and gave Conley more freedom to create.
But did he really have a chance to start something completely new or to start a youth movement? I don't think so and why do that, when you are able to win 50 games with your veteran core?
Blaming Joerger like he did refuse to alter his approach and like Fizdale is the one, who has decided single handedly to move on a bit from the old fashioned grit and grind is a bit oversimplified.
More likely the Grizzlies FO realized, that Zbo isn't getting younger by now and allowed Fizdale to do what's necessary.
I don't think we know by now, how Joerger is handling young talent, because he never was in the position to do so.
 
#51
I'm still not convinced, that the coach is completely free in his decisions when it comes to rotations. After all Vlade is Joergers superior and while Joerger needs to coach the team, Vlade is responsible for the long term approach. If Vlade tells Joerger, that he has to find minutes for our younglings in order to develop them, I doubt Joerger would refuse to do so.
If Vlade tells Joerger to play the young players over the ageing veterans then that suggests we are looking to the future and to an extent tanking to get a top ten pick. Would that sit well with Cousins? Probably not. Vlade knows that he needs to give Cousins the impression that he's doing everything he can to build a contender, so while he could see the young players as possibilities to play a part in the future, I doubt he'd give Joerger a direct instruction to play them over the veterans at this point. Perhaps they'll play more if we are eliminated from the play off hunt, but until then I think Joerger sticks to his approach and Vlade sticks to trying to put together the best roster he can.

I also think the criticism, that Joerger didn't develop young talent in Memphis is a bit unfair. After all Joerger coached the current Grizzlies core in their prime. He inherited a 56-26 team from Hollins, coaching 32 year old ZBo, 29 year old Gasol, 26 year old Conley, 28 year old Lee and 32 year old Allen in 2013/14. The most promising young players during his Grizzlies tenure were Ed Davis, who basically was playing the same position as his two stars and was battling with Koufos for the primary back up role and Quincy Pondexter, who was injured for most of the time. Other than that? Jamaal Franklin is out of the league. Jarnell Stokes is warming the deep bench in Denver.
Joerger missed on James Ennis. And he didn't bench Zbo for Green, although he played Green in crucial minutes and brought him along nicely. That's pretty much it.
The Grizzlies were already a veteran team, when Joerger took over. The young talent he had during his years in Memphis wasn't that great or played a position already manned by a veteran star. The goal set by the FO and ownership was to win and make the Playoffs. The identity of the team was "grit and grind" around Zbo and Gasol. Joerger altered their playstyle a bit and gave Conley more freedom to create.
But did he really have a chance to start something completely new or to start a youth movement? I don't think so and why do that, when you are able to win 50 games with your veteran core?
Blaming Joerger like he did refuse to alter his approach and like Fizdale is the one, who has decided single handedly to move on a bit from the old fashioned grit and grind is a bit oversimplified.
More likely the Grizzlies FO realized, that Zbo isn't getting younger by now and allowed Fizdale to do what's necessary.
I don't think we know by now, how Joerger is handling young talent, because he never was in the position to do so.
Initially Joerger did try to change how they played from their slow pace grit and grind to an up tempo style - it failed, so he reverted back to what worked. That suggests he's flexible when it comes to his system and philosophy, however he still favored the veterans and played any youth sparingly. Was the youth good enough to play more? Perhaps not, but he has approached things here in Sacramento the same way. He favors the veterans and has limited the minutes of the young players. Like I said, WCS has seen his minutes fall by almost half because he prefers to give minutes to Barnes, Tolliver and Koufos alongside Cousins. At 36, Barnes is a solid stop gap player, no more; and Tolliver has reached his ceiling, he's an average player at best. WCS is still growing and developing as a player, why cut his minutes by almost half for two ageing veteran players?

I suppose Joerger has his reasons, and I suspect those reasons are because he trusts the veterans to contribute more consistently and/or fit into his system better. Same goes for Malachi, Ben, Skal and Papa - at this time they don't really fit into what Joerger wants to do so he's limiting their minutes in favor of ageing veterans. Right or wrong, that's what he's doing. I have no issue with that if his approach brings wins and gets us into the play offs, however this team has a limited ceiling with how it's currently built and with how he's currently using the players. Maybe increasing the minutes of the young players would make us worse, if so, his approach is right if the aim is play off basketball. That said, I think it is fair to say his approach as a coach favors veterans more than developing young players, and unlike Memphis, we actually have young talent potentially worth playing and investing time in developing. To date he's favored veterans, maybe that will change as the season goes, but I suspect as long as we have play off aspirations those young players will see little time on court.
 
#52
If Vlade tells Joerger to play the young players over the ageing veterans then that suggests we are looking to the future and to an extent tanking to get a top ten pick. Would that sit well with Cousins? Probably not. Vlade knows that he needs to give Cousins the impression that he's doing everything he can to build a contender, so while he could see the young players as possibilities to play a part in the future, I doubt he'd give Joerger a direct instruction to play them over the veterans at this point. Perhaps they'll play more if we are eliminated from the play off hunt, but until then I think Joerger sticks to his approach and Vlade sticks to trying to put together the best roster he can.
That's the dilemma we are in. But it's not about Joerger. It's about Vlade wanting to take a shortcut to the Playoffs, because he wants to keep DMC around. But on this board Joerger is getting blamed for not playing the young guys and I think that's just unjustified.


Initially Joerger did try to change how they played from their slow pace grit and grind to an up tempo style - it failed, so he reverted back to what worked. That suggests he's flexible when it comes to his system and philosophy, however he still favored the veterans and played any youth sparingly. Was the youth good enough to play more? Perhaps not, but he has approached things here in Sacramento the same way. He favors the veterans and has limited the minutes of the young players. Like I said, WCS has seen his minutes fall by almost half because he prefers to give minutes to Barnes, Tolliver and Koufos alongside Cousins. At 36, Barnes is a solid stop gap player, no more; and Tolliver has reached his ceiling, he's an average player at best. WCS is still growing and developing as a player, why cut his minutes by almost half for two ageing veteran players?

I suppose Joerger has his reasons, and I suspect those reasons are because he trusts the veterans to contribute more consistently and/or fit into his system better. Same goes for Malachi, Ben, Skal and Papa - at this time they don't really fit into what Joerger wants to do so he's limiting their minutes in favor of ageing veterans. Right or wrong, that's what he's doing. I have no issue with that if his approach brings wins and gets us into the play offs, however this team has a limited ceiling with how it's currently built and with how he's currently using the players. Maybe increasing the minutes of the young players would make us worse, if so, his approach is right if the aim is play off basketball. That said, I think it is fair to say his approach as a coach favors veterans more than developing young players, and unlike Memphis, we actually have young talent potentially worth playing and investing time in developing. To date he's favored veterans, maybe that will change as the season goes, but I suspect as long as we have play off aspirations those young players will see little time on court.

Joerger changed the way the Grizzlies were playing quite a bit.
And why wouldn't he play the veterans over the youth, if the goal dictated by the ownership and FO is to make the Playoffs? With this goal in mind Joerger has to play the guys with the best on court production and he does just that (wether we think that nobody could be any worse than Matt Barnes is irrelevant as long as we don't know how those guys work during the training sessions). Everytime KK doesn't play very well, Willie is given his chance. If he is producing on the court, his minutes are extended. In an environment focused solely on winning as many games as possible, Willie has to outplay KK. He won't get minutes just based on his potential.
Is this the right thing to do moving forward? I don't think so. But it's not Joergers fault, that this franchise opted for making the Playoffs at all costs with a roster full of third string veterans at the end of their careers.
 
#53
That's the dilemma we are in. But it's not about Joerger. It's about Vlade wanting to take a shortcut to the Playoffs, because he wants to keep DMC around. But on this board Joerger is getting blamed for not playing the young guys and I think that's just unjustified.

Joerger changed the way the Grizzlies were playing quite a bit.
And why wouldn't he play the veterans over the youth, if the goal dictated by the ownership and FO is to make the Playoffs? With this goal in mind Joerger has to play the guys with the best on court production and he does just that (wether we think that nobody could be any worse than Matt Barnes is irrelevant as long as we don't know how those guys work during the training sessions). Everytime KK doesn't play very well, Willie is given his chance. If he is producing on the court, his minutes are extended. In an environment focused solely on winning as many games as possible, Willie has to outplay KK. He won't get minutes just based on his potential.
Is this the right thing to do moving forward? I don't think so. But it's not Joergers fault, that this franchise opted for making the Playoffs at all costs with a roster full of third string veterans at the end of their careers.
It will be interesting to see what happens if we are eliminated or pretty much eliminated from the play off race with a number of games left. Will he stick with his veterans to try and win as many games left as possible, or will he turn to giving the younger players greater minutes (perhaps even start some of them) in the remaining games?

At that point I think we'd get a clearer idea of what Joerger is about as a coach and what the priority would be at that point.

You are right that he has been in two situations with a win now attitude. So that in turn means he almost has to favor the veterans. However, I still find it questionable that we give players like Barnes and Tolliver as much time as we do, sometimes at PF with Cousins on the court. If we are willing to pair Cousins and Koufos, which means Cousins is playing PF at times, why not bring WCS in when Koufos heads to the bench rather than Tolliver or Barnes? I'd rather see WCS and Cousins for a little bit than Tolliver and Cousins or Barnes and Cousins. But I suppose the directive from the top is be the eighth seed, problem is, if we keep the youngsters in nominal roles that will hurt their development, and a team with the likes of Temple, Tolliver, Barnes (etc) in 20+ minute roles has very limited upside and will get swept (and I still have doubts we'll make the play offs with them as focal points). Perhaps they just want play off basketball to attract other stars to come here and play with Cousins, or simply to persuade Cousins to stay, but hopefully they realise that the young talent and their development is what potentially gives this team more upside long term than third rate veterans at the wrong end of their careers (?).

But to go back to my original point to hrdboild, the way our team is constructed, combined with the way Joerger favors veteran players, and with us following a win now model, I would not rule out us going for another veteran SG because developing Malachi and (potentially) Bogdanovic would not be a priority. They would simply move another spot down the depth chart if there is a belief that another veteran SG can help us win now - even if win now only means making it to the play offs as the eighth seed and getting swept.
 
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#54
It will be interesting to see what happens if we are eliminated or pretty much eliminated from the play off race with a number of games left. Will he stick with his veterans to try and win as many games left as possible, or will he turn to giving the younger players greater minutes (perhaps even start some of them) in the remaining games?

At that point I think we'd get a clearer idea of what Joerger is about as a coach and what the priority would be at that point.

You are right that he has been in two situations with a win now attitude. So that in turn means he almost has to favor the veterans. However, I still find it questionable that we give players like Barnes and Tolliver as much time as we do, sometimes at PF with Cousins on the court. If we are willing to pair Cousins and Koufos, which means Cousins is playing PF at times, why not bring WCS in when Koufos heads to the bench rather than Tolliver or Barnes? I'd rather see WCS and Cousins for a little bit than Tolliver and Cousins or Barnes and Cousins. But I suppose the directive from the top is be the eighth seed, problem is, if we keep the youngsters in nominal roles that will hurt their development, and a team with the likes of Temple, Tolliver, Barnes (etc) in 20+ minute roles has very limited upside and will get swept (and I still have doubts we'll make the play offs with them as focal points). Perhaps they just want play off basketball to attract other stars to come here and play with Cousins, or simply to persuade Cousins to stay, but hopefully they realise that the young talent and their development is what potentially gives this team more upside long term than third rate veterans at the wrong end of their careers (?).

But to go back to my original point to hrdboild, the way our team is constructed, combined with the way Joerger favors veteran players, and with us following a win now model, I would not rule out us going for another veteran SG because developing Malachi and (potentially) Bogdanovic would not be a priority. They would simply move another spot down the depth chart if there is a belief that another veteran SG can help us win now - even if win now only means making it to the play offs as the eighth seed and getting swept.
I really agree with you. Here's the biggest thing for me, I'd understand Joeger's decision if we were near .500 around 21-22, but we're not. We're 16-27.
The Kings are not playing winning basketball right now. So if we're not winning with our veterans, why not give our rookies a shot? What's the worst thing that can happen? Losing? We already do that anyways.

These rookies are the future of our franchise. 36 yearold Matt Barnes, 31 yearold Tolliver, and 31 yearold Afflalo all have no future as a King passed 1-2 years. I guess they do give us a better competitive edge, but by how big is that competitive edge when we currently sit as the 9th worst team in the NBA?

I remember about 20 games into the season, we were playing a game without Cousins and Gay. It was a blowout mid-way through the 2nd quarter. It was obvious that the game was lost...however, it took Joerger until the 4th quarter to put in Richardson, then half-way through the 4th quarter to put in Skal. Papa didn't even get to see any minutes. It's decisions like these that make it clear Joerger prefers playing his vets.
 

Bricklayer

Don't Make Me Use The Bat
#55
It will be interesting to see what happens if we are eliminated or pretty much eliminated from the play off race with a number of games left. Will he stick with his veterans to try and win as many games left as possible, or will he turn to giving the younger players greater minutes (perhaps even start some of them) in the remaining games?

At that point I think we'd get a clearer idea of what Joerger is about as a coach and what the priority would be at that point.

You are right that he has been in two situations with a win now attitude. So that in turn means he almost has to favor the veterans. However, I still find it questionable that we give players like Barnes and Tolliver as much time as we do, sometimes at PF with Cousins on the court. If we are willing to pair Cousins and Koufos, which means Cousins is playing PF at times, why not bring WCS in when Koufos heads to the bench rather than Tolliver or Barnes? I'd rather see WCS and Cousins for a little bit than Tolliver and Cousins or Barnes and Cousins. But I suppose the directive from the top is be the eighth seed, problem is, if we keep the youngsters in nominal roles that will hurt their development, and a team with the likes of Temple, Tolliver, Barnes (etc) in 20+ minute roles has very limited upside and will get swept (and I still have doubts we'll make the play offs with them as focal points). Perhaps they just want play off basketball to attract other stars to come here and play with Cousins, or simply to persuade Cousins to stay, but hopefully they realise that the young talent and their development is what potentially gives this team more upside long term than third rate veterans at the wrong end of their careers (?).

But to go back to my original point to hrdboild, the way our team is constructed, combined with the way Joerger favors veteran players, and with us following a win now model, I would not rule out us going for another veteran SG because developing Malachi and (potentially) Bogdanovic would not be a priority. They would simply move another spot down the depth chart if there is a belief that another veteran SG can help us win now - even if win now only means making it to the play offs as the eighth seed and getting swept.
given the state of the "race" for #8, it would almost impossible to get eliminated for any team. The way things are headed somebody is going to win it with 37 wins.
 

hrdboild

Hall of Famer
#56
I don't see a player like Dwayne Wade considering Sacramento. If we go after a veteran player in free agency, or via a trade, it will most likely be in the Garrett Temple or Arron Afflalo bracket. That is not necessarily a bad thing because Joerger does rely heavily on veteran players and having another option in the rotation could be good for him, but I wouldn't bet on any addition being a big name, nor would I bet on a young upside player coming in and having a big role (if we retain our first round pick).

Draft wise, if we retain our first round draft pick - which would need to fall inside the top ten - then I suspect we would most likely be looking at a point guard. This year's draft class seems pretty deep at point guard and a young upside point guard might be a good addition, but again it would be difficult to pin point exactly how big a role a young upside point guard would have on a Dave Joerger team. It could be the case we draft someone and they sit second or third on the depth chart, so potentially it would not surprise me to see us try and trade that pick away for a veteran.



The thing to bear in mind is that Dave Joerger is not really known for developing young players. In Memphis he tended to place his trust in veteran players rather than young, developing players. The same is happening here in Sacramento...

Our young upside players like Ben McLemore (15 MPG), Willie Cauley-Stein (11 MPG), Skal Labissiere (6.6 MPG), Malachi Richardson (5.9 MPG) and Georgios Papagiannis (4.5 MPG) are all at the bottom of the usage chart for the current season.

Compare that with the veterans that have some starts and/or are used in the rotation: 31 year old Anthony Tolliver (21.7 MPG), 31 year old Arron Afflalo (23.8 MPG), 36 year old Matt Barnes (24.6 MPG), 29 year old Ty Lawson (25 MPG), 30 year old Garrett Temple (26 MPG).


Now I appreciate that we are trying to chase a play off spot this season and not another top ten draft pick. So that means Joerger will use players he trusts in his system, but that in turn means that our young, upside players are going to struggle for minutes because they get lost in the rotation. Take WCS for example, his minutes have almost been cut in half from his rookie season because Joerger is using pairings of Cousins-Koufos, Cousins-Tolliver, Cousins-Barnes (etc) and not using WCS as much in the rotation. This is because Joerger relies heavily on those veteran players to keep games close and to close games out. When he looks to his bench, it is often to bring on a veteran player rather than a young, upside player. With that in mind, the presence of Malachi Richardson and (potentially) Bogdan Bogdanovic will most likely not prevent another veteran shooting guard joining the team next season.

You are right that it doesn't make sense to add another shooting guard and block minutes for Malachi and (potentially) Bogdan. However, we don't really have a coach that invests on the court minutes for player development, he uses veterans. Don't get me wrong, I can see why we have gone for Joerger and are buying into his mentality and approach, but the issue with that is young upside players will most likely take a backseat unless they prove themselves worthy of an increase in minutes, which is hard to achieve when the veterans take up much of the available minutes and roster spots.
We really only know Dave Joerger from his tenure with Memphis and that was a veteran team trying to maintain their standing in a tough Western conference. Before that he built his reputation by winning in the D-League with a revolving cast of young guys so it's not like he can't develop or teach. Malachi, Skal, and Papagiannis weren't ready to play at the start of the season this year and we're trying to make the playoffs with a veteran roster. I would expect Joerger to play Koufos, Tolliver, Barnes, and Afflalo more in this circumstance. Cauley-Stein hasn't impressed most of the time that he's been on the floor so his role was minimized. The lack of minutes for Casspi is the only big disappointment for me and that's partially explained by injuries pulling him out of the rotation sporadically. We'll see the rookies integrated more next year, which is fine. Clearing out roster spots to play teenagers 30 minutes per game is a mistake the last front office made. You only do that if you have a surefire star on your hands, and even then it's potentially a bad idea to give them too much freedom too soon.

We'll see what happens with Bogdan, but he's going to be in his mid 20s and ready to play so I would hope he isn't handled with kid gloves. Give him a legit shot, see what he can do. A lot of this comes down to roster construction. If I'm a head coach my goal is to win games (at least until I'm overruled by the front office's desire for a better draft pick...) so I'm playing the most productive players I have. I don't care that Afflalo and Tolliver have only 1 guaranteed year, or that Rudy and Darren are going to be free agents. That's GM stuff. If Vlade doesn't want me to play Koufos then he should trade him. If he wants to give me 4 SGs I'm going to play the ones who are executing my game plan the best. I have no problem with any of that stuff. That's why I think if we want to develop the kids we can't just push them down the depth chart every year. If there's a surefire starter dangling in free agency then by all means snap them up but if it's middling role-players, why bother? Spend that money somewhere else or we may be wasting resources on players who will never actually play for us. If Vlade drafted them he thinks they're NBA players. Give them a solid 15 minutes and a consistent role on the team once they ace out of the D-League. If they can't hack it, well, then we move on from there.

So no, I don't think it matters what type of coach that Dave Joerger is. Rick Adelman was criticized for not trusting rookies but the guys who deserved minutes got them. He developed JWill, Peja, Hedo, and KMart. And he got a lot of production out of his veteran bench players. That's the best you can hope for. Until we give Coach Joerger a rookie who deserves big minutes right away, I'm not going to judge him for keeping them on the bench. And we should still draft and develop talent like every other team. Tossing draft picks away like garbage is how we got into this situation in the first place where we have one superstar and no talent around him.
 

Bricklayer

Don't Make Me Use The Bat
#57
Tossing draft picks away like garbage is how we got into this situation in the first place where we have one superstar and no talent around him.
we got here by blowing all the picks we did have. I mean, we could talk about letting Tyreke and IT go, but they were pretty established vets by the time we did that. The guys we have tossed aside have been guys like Jimmer, and TRob and Stauskas. Suffice it to say none of them would solve our talent issue.

On the other hand drafting:

2011 -- Jimmer at #10 instead of Klay Thompson (#11) or Kawhi Leonard (#15) may have been a teensy tiny mistake. Our pick actually started off #7, where we could have drafted Kemba Walker (#9) as well.
2012 -- Thomas Robinson at #5 instead of Damian Lillard (#6) = slight oops. Personally I wanted them to take Drummond (#9), which still would have been a slight upgrade.
2013 -- Ben McLemore at #7 instead of CJ McCollum (#10) or Giannis Antetokounmpo = more teensy tiny mistakes.
2014 -- Nik (Nik Rocks!) Stauskas at #8 over Zach LaVine (#13), who we had in for a workout and apparently even gave some sort of assurances to = oops again! At least we're consistent.
2015 -- Willie Cauley Stein at #6 over Myles Turner at #11 appears to be another whiff at this stage, although Willie's book may not be entirely written yet.

That's 5 straight lottery picks after Cousins that we did not toss like garbage. We kept them. Then we DRAFTED garbage, and all that was left wass how long it would take us to realize it and dump it. We would have been better off dumping those busts the day after the draft while they still had value than keeping them around until their value was entirely gone once everybody realized they sucked.
 
#58
We really only know Dave Joerger from his tenure with Memphis and that was a veteran team trying to maintain their standing in a tough Western conference. Before that he built his reputation by winning in the D-League with a revolving cast of young guys so it's not like he can't develop or teach. Malachi, Skal, and Papagiannis weren't ready to play at the start of the season this year and we're trying to make the playoffs with a veteran roster. I would expect Joerger to play Koufos, Tolliver, Barnes, and Afflalo more in this circumstance. Cauley-Stein hasn't impressed most of the time that he's been on the floor so his role was minimized. The lack of minutes for Casspi is the only big disappointment for me and that's partially explained by injuries pulling him out of the rotation sporadically. We'll see the rookies integrated more next year, which is fine. Clearing out roster spots to play teenagers 30 minutes per game is a mistake the last front office made. You only do that if you have a surefire star on your hands, and even then it's potentially a bad idea to give them too much freedom too soon.

We'll see what happens with Bogdan, but he's going to be in his mid 20s and ready to play so I would hope he isn't handled with kid gloves. Give him a legit shot, see what he can do. A lot of this comes down to roster construction. If I'm a head coach my goal is to win games (at least until I'm overruled by the front office's desire for a better draft pick...) so I'm playing the most productive players I have. I don't care that Afflalo and Tolliver have only 1 guaranteed year, or that Rudy and Darren are going to be free agents. That's GM stuff. If Vlade doesn't want me to play Koufos then he should trade him. If he wants to give me 4 SGs I'm going to play the ones who are executing my game plan the best. I have no problem with any of that stuff. That's why I think if we want to develop the kids we can't just push them down the depth chart every year. If there's a surefire starter dangling in free agency then by all means snap them up but if it's middling role-players, why bother? Spend that money somewhere else or we may be wasting resources on players who will never actually play for us. If Vlade drafted them he thinks they're NBA players. Give them a solid 15 minutes and a consistent role on the team once they ace out of the D-League. If they can't hack it, well, then we move on from there.

So no, I don't think it matters what type of coach that Dave Joerger is. Rick Adelman was criticized for not trusting rookies but the guys who deserved minutes got them. He developed JWill, Peja, Hedo, and KMart. And he got a lot of production out of his veteran bench players. That's the best you can hope for. Until we give Coach Joerger a rookie who deserves big minutes right away, I'm not going to judge him for keeping them on the bench. And we should still draft and develop talent like every other team. Tossing draft picks away like garbage is how we got into this situation in the first place where we have one superstar and no talent around him.
I have no issue as such with Joerger playing the veterans because we are aiming to make the play offs as the eighth seed. If the rookies aren't ready to contribute on a team with play off aspirations, then they aren't ready and should remain on the bench and in limited roles. However, if that is the aim this season, then those young players aren't likely to get a greater role next season unless the path is opened for them by the departure of existing veterans, by not signing anyone else in that position, and by committing to the development of those young players with a significant increase in minutes. But how likely is it that this team will go from using veterans to promoting heavier usage of second and third year inexperienced players?

I don't see that happening. If we are in win now mode this season, we'll be in win now mode next season. As such, Vlade will try and reload the roster with more veterans and difference makers to help this team win more games. If that occurs, the youngsters will once again be buried on the depth chart. That was my point about the type of coach Joerger seems to be. In the NBA he's been veteran orientated and unless this team makes a decision to build around a young core of players supported by veterans (e.g. Denver Nuggets) rather than a team built around ageing decling veterans supporting our star player, then don't rule out this team adding veteran talent that keeps the young talent at or near the bottom of the depth chart.
 

hrdboild

Hall of Famer
#59
we got here by blowing all the picks we did have. I mean, we could talk about letting Tyreke and IT go, but they were pretty established vets by the time we did that. The guys we have tossed aside have been guys like Jimmer, and TRob and Stauskas. Suffice it to say none of them would solve our talent issue.

On the other hand drafting:

2011 -- Jimmer at #10 instead of Klay Thompson (#11) or Kawhi Leonard (#15) may have been a teensy tiny mistake. Our pick actually started off #7, where we could have drafted Kemba Walker (#9) as well.
2012 -- Thomas Robinson at #5 instead of Damian Lillard (#6) = slight oops. Personally I wanted them to take Drummond (#9), which still would have been a slight upgrade.
2013 -- Ben McLemore at #7 instead of CJ McCollum (#10) or Giannis Antetokounmpo = more teensy tiny mistakes.
2014 -- Nik (Nik Rocks!) Stauskas at #8 over Zach LaVine (#13), who we had in for a workout and apparently even gave some sort of assurances to = oops again! At least we're consistent.
2015 -- Willie Cauley Stein at #6 over Myles Turner at #11 appears to be another whiff at this stage, although Willie's book may not be entirely written yet.

That's 5 straight lottery picks after Cousins that we did not toss like garbage. We kept them. Then we DRAFTED garbage, and all that was left wass how long it would take us to realize it and dump it. We would have been better off dumping those busts the day after the draft while they still had value than keeping them around until their value was entirely gone once everybody realized they sucked.
We obviously thought Jimmer and Ben were going to be stars because we made trades before they played a single game to open up spots for them in the starting lineup. That's a talent evaluation issue and/or a development issue. But Thomas Robinson and Nik Stauskas we traded after (or during) their first season. That's throwing away draft picks. Throwing in an extra first in the Omri/Hickson deal was unnecessary and a waste of a draft pick (although we may have sucked our way out of coming clean on that one). Giving up two consecutive pick swaps and an unprotected first round pick just to dump salary is the most egregious example of throwing away draft picks. If you're keeping track, that's 4 first round picks traded away for very little tangible benefit plus the swap rights that are currently looming over our head. Doesn't Philly still make that trade for a top 5 protected pick in 2019 and only 1 year of swap rights? What we gave up in that deal is absurd. Granted we could have made out better if we actually drafted better players, but how much effort could we be putting into scouting the draft if we treat picks like toxic waste? If we actually valued our young players and believed in their potential it would take an exceptional circumstance to pry them away.

I have no issue as such with Joerger playing the veterans because we are aiming to make the play offs as the eighth seed. If the rookies aren't ready to contribute on a team with play off aspirations, then they aren't ready and should remain on the bench and in limited roles. However, if that is the aim this season, then those young players aren't likely to get a greater role next season unless the path is opened for them by the departure of existing veterans, by not signing anyone else in that position, and by committing to the development of those young players with a significant increase in minutes. But how likely is it that this team will go from using veterans to promoting heavier usage of second and third year inexperienced players?

I don't see that happening. If we are in win now mode this season, we'll be in win now mode next season. As such, Vlade will try and reload the roster with more veterans and difference makers to help this team win more games. If that occurs, the youngsters will once again be buried on the depth chart. That was my point about the type of coach Joerger seems to be. In the NBA he's been veteran orientated and unless this team makes a decision to build around a young core of players supported by veterans (e.g. Denver Nuggets) rather than a team built around ageing decling veterans supporting our star player, then don't rule out this team adding veteran talent that keeps the young talent at or near the bottom of the depth chart.
The misnomer, as I see it, is the whole idea that you can't win and develop young players at the same time. There's this odd idea that being in "win now" mode somehow means you have to shed draft picks lest their "rawness" spread to the other players.* This is complete nonsense of course because the most successful franchise of the past 20 years constantly develops young players from the draft. Remember Dejounte Murray, the lanky combo guard out of Washington who was supposedly "too raw" to play for the likes of the "win now" Kings? Well, he's getting some playing time already in San Antonio and leaving a mark. As early as 2011 I was already hearing how we couldn't handle a raw rookie prospect because we were in "win now" mode and 5 years later we're still not winning. Drummond was too raw, Giannis was too raw, Payton was too raw, Turner was too raw. All of them would be rotation players by now. It's time to change the game plan. There has to be some middle ground between playing Ben as the starter for 3 years because we've got nothing else and drafting players we're afraid to play and immediately hiding them behind multiple veterans. Malachi wasn't ready this year. He will be next year, for a bench role at least. Bogdan will be ready for a bench role as well. With Temple here too, that's your SG depth and emergency SF depth. Done. We don't need another one unless they're replacing Temple and they better be an upgrade if that happens.

*(Okay, that's just me being facetious. But we have been packaging picks for veterans and that's a game of diminishing returns.)
 
#60
we got here by blowing all the picks we did have. I mean, we could talk about letting Tyreke and IT go, but they were pretty established vets by the time we did that. The guys we have tossed aside have been guys like Jimmer, and TRob and Stauskas. Suffice it to say none of them would solve our talent issue.

On the other hand drafting:

2011 -- Jimmer at #10 instead of Klay Thompson (#11) or Kawhi Leonard (#15) may have been a teensy tiny mistake. Our pick actually started off #7, where we could have drafted Kemba Walker (#9) as well.
2012 -- Thomas Robinson at #5 instead of Damian Lillard (#6) = slight oops. Personally I wanted them to take Drummond (#9), which still would have been a slight upgrade.
2013 -- Ben McLemore at #7 instead of CJ McCollum (#10) or Giannis Antetokounmpo = more teensy tiny mistakes.
2014 -- Nik (Nik Rocks!) Stauskas at #8 over Zach LaVine (#13), who we had in for a workout and apparently even gave some sort of assurances to = oops again! At least we're consistent.
2015 -- Willie Cauley Stein at #6 over Myles Turner at #11 appears to be another whiff at this stage, although Willie's book may not be entirely written yet.

That's 5 straight lottery picks after Cousins that we did not toss like garbage. We kept them. Then we DRAFTED garbage, and all that was left wass how long it would take us to realize it and dump it. We would have been better off dumping those busts the day after the draft while they still had value than keeping them around until their value was entirely gone once everybody realized they sucked.
When you're at this stage in the game, you can NOT go 0/5 like that. Especially when that is your only way of obtaining a star.